Student gets Suspended for taking PIC of napping Teacher!

[WelshBloke]

Guess we know the reason why the UK can't win a significant war without the aid of the US.

All our butter knives are in use in schools leaving us unable to spread the enemy to death?

 

[AznAnarchy99]

Yes, because the only thing a knife can be used for is to spread butter

I can stab you with a pencil/pen better than I can with a butter knife.

 

[WelshBloke]

Yes, because the only thing a knife can be used for is to spread butter

Not at all, there's many uses for a butter knife.
Jam, marmalade, soft cheese, spreading your enemies to death and hearing the lamentation of their women, marmite, peanut butter, etc

 

[GotIssues]

Not at all, there's many uses for a butter knife.
Jam, marmalade, soft cheese, spreading your enemies to death and hearing the lamentation of their women, marmite, peanut butter, etc

Here, I'll give you a situation.

Your kid gets in a fight. It happens. All the time. The other person brought a butter knife to school for lunch and pulls it out. He proceeds to butter your child's intestines. Now instead of a trip to the principles office, you have a trip to the hospital.

You can avoid the topic with stupid ass comments all you want, but while butter knifes are pretty innocuous in every day use, they can do major damage in a short amount of time and are not required in school, thus should not be present.

 

[GotIssues]

I can stab you with a pencil/pen better than I can with a butter knife.

No, you can't.
1) The pencil/pens will break in the middle pretty easily. Knives won't. You'll get 1 stab with a pen/pencil on an unwilling target. You will get a lot more with a butter knife
2) Knives are meant to be handled in the slashing motion. Pens and pencils aren't.

Butter knives aren't required in school pencils and pens are. This has been covered already. If knives were required for school, this discussion would be quite a bit different.

 

[WelshBloke]

Here, I'll give you a situation.

Your kid gets in a fight. It happens. All the time. The other person brought a butter knife to school for lunch and pulls it out. He proceeds to butter your child's intestines. Now instead of a trip to the principles office, you have a trip to the hospital.

You can avoid the topic with stupid ass comments all you want, but while butter knifes are pretty innocuous in every day use, they can do major damage in a short amount of time and are not required in school, thus should not be present.

Major damage!?

At this point I'm going to have to ask if this is a language thing and "butter knife" actually means "chainsaw" in American English?

In your scenario I'd guess my kid would have the advantage as the other child flails around with his butterknife. Unless there's marmite involved, all bets are off if the scumbag pulls some marmite out on my kid!

 

[ShawnD1]

Here, I'll give you a situation.

Your kid gets in a fight. It happens. All the time. The other person brought a butter knife to school for lunch and pulls it out. He proceeds to butter your child's intestines. Now instead of a trip to the principles office, you have a trip to the hospital.

You can avoid the topic with stupid ass comments all you want, but while butter knifes are pretty innocuous in every day use, they can do major damage in a short amount of time and are not required in school, thus should not be present.

You're right. We should ban pens and pencils, especially since they are a lot sharper and pointier than butter knives.

 

[gothamhunter]

No, you can't.
1) The pencil/pens will break in the middle pretty easily. Knives won't. You'll get 1 stab with a pen/pencil on an unwilling target. You will get a lot more with a butter knife
2) Knives are meant to be handled in the slashing motion. Pens and pencils aren't.

Butter knives aren't required in school pencils and pens are. This has been covered already. If knives were required for school, this discussion would be quite a bit different.

Backpacks aren't required in school. Sure, they're useful and convenient, but the normal student could probably carry everything home in their arms. And if we ban backpacks, then we can get rid of the worry a student taking their backpack, shoving it over another person's head, and zip it shut against the other person's neck, possibly lacerating the neck and causing them to bleed out, or suffocating them to death. Or then they have one less thing to carry around all of those deadly butter knives they all plan on disembowling someone with.

 

[waggy]

Here, I'll give you a situation.

Your kid gets in a fight. It happens. All the time. The other person brought a butter knife to school for lunch and pulls it out. He proceeds to butter your child's intestines. Now instead of a trip to the principles office, you have a trip to the hospital.

You can avoid the topic with stupid ass comments all you want, but while butter knifes are pretty innocuous in every day use, they can do major damage in a short amount of time and are not required in school, thus should not be present.

what...

a butter knife is not going to do that..and a pen/pencil is far more deadly then any butter knife. hell i would even rank a spork higher.

 

[BoberFett]

backpacks aren't required in school. Sure, they're useful and convenient, but the normal student could probably carry everything home in their arms. And if we ban backpacks, then we can get rid of the worry a student taking their backpack, shoving it over another person's head, and zip it shut against the other person's neck, possibly lacerating the neck and causing them to bleed out, or suffocating them to death. Or then they have one less thing to carry around all of those deadly butter knives they all plan on disembowling someone with.

lmfao

 

[Paladin3]

Here, I'll give you a situation.

Your kid gets in a fight. It happens. All the time. The other person brought a butter knife to school for lunch and pulls it out. He proceeds to butter your child's intestines. Now instead of a trip to the principles office, you have a trip to the hospital.

You can avoid the topic with stupid ass comments all you want, but while butter knifes are pretty innocuous in every day use, they can do major damage in a short amount of time and are not required in school, thus should not be present.

It would be easy to kill someone with a butter knife and any kid caught with one at school should have it taken away from them. What I am arguing is that we don't need a zero tolerance rules forcing school administrators to treat all students caught with butter knives the same.

If a student who's never been in trouble brings a butter knife to school as part of a science exhibit, they should not receive the same punishment, if any, as a student caught with the exact same butter knife to use as a weapon.

Intent, actual harm caused and what's best for the student and school should factor in more than the letter of a zero tolerance rule when dictating punishment. We need our law enforcement, government and school officials to exercise more good judgement and common sense, not less.

 

[GotIssues]

Major damage!?

At this point I'm going to have to ask if this is a language thing and "butter knife" actually means "chainsaw" in American English?

In your scenario I'd guess my kid would have the advantage as the other child flails around with his butterknife. Unless there's marmite involved, all bets are off if the scumbag pulls some marmite out on my kid!

Perfectly harmless.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...hat-a-butter-knife-in-my-head-86908-21447260/

Dude got his face buttered. Buttered real good.

You're right. We should ban pens and pencils, especially since they are a lot sharper and pointier than butter knives.

It's been covered. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over.




And over, and over, and over.





And over.

what...

a butter knife is not going to do that..and a pen/pencil is far more deadly then any butter knife. hell i would even rank a spork higher.

Go ahead and have your kid stab you as hard as he can in your stomach with a butter knife. Just remember to have the car ready to have your significant other take you to the hospital. It will go in, guaranteed.

First off, you are jumping to the conclusion that I'm saying it'll go in like... a hot knife through butter, zip around at the slightest touch, and going through bone as if it were water. No, I'm not saying that in the slightest. It only takes a single thrust into the gut. Puncture the intestines, and you have a pretty big problem.

It doesn't have to have a razor sharp edge to be a piercing weapon. Pen's and pencils have a sharper point, but they are structurally much weaker. Sure, it'll piece the first time better, but it's a one time use. Knives are built to last.

Maybe you people don't have any experience what-so-ever with edges, but unless you have leather skin, it's really not hard to puncture.

Backpacks aren't required in school. Sure, they're useful and convenient, but the normal student could probably carry everything home in their arms. And if we ban backpacks, then we can get rid of the worry a student taking their backpack, shoving it over another person's head, and zip it shut against the other person's neck, possibly lacerating the neck and causing them to bleed out, or suffocating them to death. Or then they have one less thing to carry around all of those deadly butter knives they all plan on disembowling someone with.

I said stab him in the gut, not stab him in the gut, slice him around with ease, and make haggis with his innards. You have some pretty piss poor reading comprehension.

 

[GotIssues]

It would be easy to kill someone with a butter knife and any kid caught with one at school should have it taken away from them. What I am arguing is that we don't need a zero tolerance rules forcing school administrators to treat all students caught with butter knives the same.

Careful, people here seem to think butter knives are made of jello and as dangerous as a nerf ball.

If a student who's never been in trouble brings a butter knife to school as part of a science exhibit, they should not receive the same punishment, if any, as a student caught with the exact same butter knife to use as a weapon.

What if a serial trouble maker brings it for a "science exhibit"? If anyone is going to use it, it's going to be him, right?

I don't mind the USE of them in school. Couldn't care less. But ground rules should be set. Have them immediately give it to the appropriate teacher before school starts, retrieve it for the science project, give it back, then pick it up after school. It doesn't need to be on their person at any other point during the day. It goes back to removing opportunity.

Intent, actual harm caused and what's best for the student and school should factor in more than the letter of a zero tolerance rule when dictating punishment. We need our law enforcement, government and school officials to exercise more good judgement and common sense, not less.

I agree that intent is the driving factor, but before they do anything, how can you really draw out intent? Someone planning on using it as a weapon will say the exact same thing as someone who isn't.

 

[gothamhunter]

I said stab him in the gut, not stab him in the gut, slice him around with ease, and make haggis with his innards. You have some pretty piss poor reading comprehension.

What does that have to do with the point I was making? You can still use the backpack to harm someone else, and they aren't required for school.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with your idea that butter knives are dangerous; I'm not really understanding how people think someone can't be stabbed with a butter knife.

 

[WelshBloke]

Perfectly harmless.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...hat-a-butter-knife-in-my-head-86908-21447260/

Dude got his face buttered. Buttered real good.

And this happens often enough in American schools that you feel they need banning?

If you ban everything ever used to do someone harm in an Aberdeen pub you're going to have a big empty building not a school.

 

[waggy]

Careful, people here seem to think butter knives are made of jello and as dangerous as a nerf ball.



What if a serial trouble maker brings it for a "science exhibit"? If anyone is going to use it, it's going to be him, right?

I don't mind the USE of them in school. Couldn't care less. But ground rules should be set. Have them immediately give it to the appropriate teacher before school starts, retrieve it for the science project, give it back, then pick it up after school. It doesn't need to be on their person at any other point during the day. It goes back to removing opportunity.



I agree that intent is the driving factor, but before they do anything, how can you really draw out intent? Someone planning on using it as a weapon will say the exact same thing as someone who isn't.

NOTHING in the school is harmless. my point is a butter knife is LESS harmless then a pencil, pen, etc.

 

[Paladin3]

What if a serial trouble maker brings it for a "science exhibit"? If anyone is going to use it, it's going to be him, right?

I don't mind the USE of them in school. Couldn't care less. But ground rules should be set. Have them immediately give it to the appropriate teacher before school starts, retrieve it for the science project, give it back, then pick it up after school. It doesn't need to be on their person at any other point during the day. It goes back to removing opportunity.

I agree that intent is the driving factor, but before they do anything, how can you really draw out intent? Someone planning on using it as a weapon will say the exact same thing as someone who isn't.

You will never remove all opportunity for our kids to make mistakes. If that is your goal then we should lock them in individual padded cells and educate them via a video feed.

Defining intent is easy, as is knowing when a student is lying. The facts speak for themselves and are usually quite clear. I've been involved in a lot of student discipline and had to explain to parents what their children did to get in trouble many times.

Final discipline was decided by a principal after considering the situation and what was best for the child. We didn't discipline students for pure punishment, we disciplined them to teach them what was expected of them by society and to teach them to become productive citizens.

I used to teach Internet research skills to 5th and 6th grade students. I caught one of them googling the term "naked women" in the middle of class. The kid knew what he was doing was wrong and he lost his Internet privileges for the remainder of the year and served some detention time. I worked long and hard with him after that to help him improve his decisions making skills, and sat with him anytime he needed to do Internet research.

There are schools that have zero tolerance rules that would have forced us to report the kids poor decision to the police. Instances of kids looking at porn on computers in school have let to children with criminal records and even being ordered to register as sex offenders. I would have been forced to treat a young girl who was entering puberty and wondering what her body is doing, and who searches for technically adult terms that could potentially return adult results, exactly the same as the student who was searching for naked women. That's not right.

That's the kind of insanity we get when we abandon our own judgment in favor of rigid, overly harsh zero tolerance rules. Why the fuck would you want to give up the one thing that makes us human, that raises us above the animals - our ability to think and reason and know the difference between good and evil - for the sake of a false sense of security from zero tolerances laws?

 

[GotIssues]

You will never remove all opportunity for our kids to make mistakes. If that is your goal then we should lock them in individual padded cells and educate them via a video feed.

Hardly. Removing weapons isn't removing all ability to make mistakes. I made tons of mistakes as a kid, and none of them involved taking a knife to school. You can't bubble wrap your kids, but you can take reasonable precautions wherever possible. Not allowing weapons in schools seems like a pretty reasonable precaution, don't you think?

Defining intent is easy, as is knowing when a student is lying. The facts speak for themselves and are usually quite clear. I've been involved in a lot of student discipline and had to explain to parents what their children did to get in trouble many times.

Funny thing. If they were lying and you didn't know it... you didn't know they were lying, thus you assume you know they aren't lying. You maintain the false truth that you know exactly when kids are lying. You may think it's easy to tell when kids are lying, but I highly doubt you are as good at it as you think. Didn't you know the kid growing up that could get away with anything because he was smart about it? Yeah, those are still around, you didn't catch him/her.

Final discipline was decided by a principal after considering the situation and what was best for the child. We didn't discipline students for pure punishment, we disciplined them to teach them what was expected of them by society and to teach them to become productive citizens.

Since those that ended up taking mostly punishment turned out terrible? Did you think your grandparents turned out terrible? They probably took a heck of a beating when they misbehaved. Hell, we've gone further and further away from those types of punishments, and society has gotten lazier and lazier (correlation != causation, so don't get all huffy about it).

Now, I'm not saying it's because they aren't getting punished, but coming to the exact opposite conclusion seems pretty short sighted. Implying (whether you meant to or not) that if they get punished they won't become productive members of society is just plain absurd.

I used to teach Internet research skills to 5th and 6th grade students. I caught one of them googling the term "naked women" in the middle of class. The kid knew what he was doing was wrong and he lost his Internet privileges for the remainder of the year and served some detention time. I worked long and hard with him after that to help him improve his decisions making skills, and sat with him anytime he needed to do Internet research.

Haha, kids are hilarious. Man, how did he think that was a good idea to do AT SCHOOL?

First off, you are picking a mundane, pointless thing to create an imaginary ZT rule to use as an example. I never said ZT rules should be applied to everything. I've said they are good in certain instances, but not in all. If you are creating ZT policies over every little thing, then your school system is completely screwed up.

Searching for naked woman on the internet is a tad different than bringing a knife to school with an intent to injure, though. Not really a good parallel. Kid looks up porn with intent at school - worst case scenario is he sees some boobs. Kid brings weapon to school with intent to injure - yeah, well, know you the rest.

There are schools that have zero tolerance rules that would have forced us to report the kids poor decision to the police. Instances of kids looking at porn on computers in school have let to children with criminal records and even being ordered to register as sex offenders. I would have been forced to treat a young girl who was entering puberty and wondering what her body is doing, and who searches for technically adult terms that could potentially return adult results, exactly the same as the student who was searching for naked women. That's not right.

The criminal records are not because they looked up porn, it's because they ended up with and distributed naked images of their underage classmates. That whole mess of things is just that - a giant mess. Highly sexualized kids with the opportunity and peer pressure to send naked pictures is trouble in a whole slew of ways. Frankly, there is no good way to deal with it. In these cases, it's not a case of zero tolerance, it's a case of a Federal Crime. Schools have zero say in the matter.

That's the kind of insanity we get when we abandon our own judgment in favor of rigid, overly harsh zero tolerance rules. Why the fuck would you want to give up the one thing that makes us human, that raises us above the animals - our ability to think and reason and know the difference between good and evil - for the sake of a false sense of security from zero tolerances laws?

You are defining zero tolerance in the most extreme manner possible on the most pointless situation and using that as your argument. ZT isn't "do it and get suspended/expelled" - it's "do it and suffer whatever the punishment might be" which could range from getting the item taken away to getting expelled, whatever is outlined in the policy and it is not to be used on everything. I won't forget to mention the appeals process... again. Internet usage isn't a ZT sort of situation, but there are situations that are serious enough to warrant the use of a ZT.

 

[GotIssues]

NOTHING in the school is harmless. my point is a butter knife is LESS harmless then a pencil, pen, etc.

Pens and pencils are necessary for school. No knife is. At the most, they are needed 1) during lunch 2) during rare occasions for projects. In #1, they can be provided by the school. In #2, they can be given to the teachers before hand and picked up after school. Pens/pencils are just flat out required in every class.

Side note that isn't related to the topic: I disagree with the pencil being more harmful. Pencil will get 1 stab, knives can get many stabs (well, unless it's plastic, in which case they are probably equal enough). I honestly don't see a way I'd agree with you on this particular aspect, but it's a stupid argument (I think we can both agree to that) that is irrelevant and tertiary to what is actually being discussed, which is ZT rules.

 

[LumbergTech]

Pens and pencils are necessary for school. No knife is. At the most, they are needed 1) during lunch 2) during rare occasions for projects. In #1, they can be provided by the school. In #2, they can be given to the teachers before hand and picked up after school. Pens/pencils are just flat out required in every class.

Side note that isn't related to the topic: I disagree with the pencil being more harmful. Pencil will get 1 stab, knives can get many stabs (well, unless it's plastic, in which case they are probably equal enough). I honestly don't see a way I'd agree with you on this particular aspect, but it's a stupid argument (I think we can both agree to that) that is irrelevant and tertiary to what is actually being discussed, which is ZT rules.

you are plain wrong. Apparently you haven't seen what a pencil can do to someone..A pencil can still stab your goddamn eye out. Are you really that dense?

 

[GotIssues]

And this happens often enough in American schools that you feel they need banning?

If you ban everything ever used to do someone harm in an Aberdeen pub you're going to have a big empty building not a school.

Under what reasoning do you think they should be ok to carry around in schools? Because it hasn't happened yet? Should it have to happen for it to be banned? So you are saying that it will take the life of a child for you to react?

The general populace scoffs at these rules as not needed. As soon as something bad happens, the same general populace is up in arms demanding administrator's jobs because they didn't put in rules to prevent it from happening.

 

[GotIssues]

you are plain wrong. Apparently you haven't seen what a pencil can do to someone..A pencil can still stab your goddamn eye out. Are you really that dense?

Are you saying a knife can't stab your "goddamn eye out"?

Read before you post next time. I never said pencils were harmless. I said knives can do more damage for the sheer fact they are multiple use and pens/pencils will break after one.

EDIT: Just for the record, I've been stabbed with a pencil. My friend and I were running to class, I stopped, he didn't. The lead went in about 1/8" into my shoulder and the pencil snapped in half. You can still faintly see the lead.

 

[LumbergTech]

Are you saying a knife can't stab your "goddamn eye out"?

Read before you post next time. I never said pencils were harmless. I said knives can do more damage for the sheer fact they are multiple use and pens/pencils will break after one.

EDIT: Just for the record, I've been stabbed with a pencil. My friend and I were running to class, I stopped, he didn't. The lead went in about 1/8" into my shoulder and the pencil snapped in half. You can still faintly see the lead.

Gonna have to agree to disagree I guess. I've never felt the obligation to follow stupid ass rules and I won't force my child to either. If my kid is fucking around on their phone at school when they should be learning, then I will take it myself. If my kid shows me that their teacher is sleeping on the job then I will reward them for pointing it out and tell the school to go to hell.

 

[videogames101]

Zero Tolerance never, ever, ever, ever







EVER





...ever


ever works.

 

[GotIssues]

Gonna have to agree to disagree I guess. I've never felt the obligation to follow stupid ass rules and I won't force my child to either. If my kid is fucking around on their phone at school when they should be learning, then I will take it myself. If my kid shows me that their teacher is sleeping on the job then I will reward them for pointing it out and tell the school to go to hell.

I think you are mistaken as to my stance on the subject.

1) The kid should be suspended if that's what the policy says BUT he should appeal the suspension (assuming he's not a serial offender and the suspension is warranted), and the school should re-examine the severity of the punishment they are doling out.
2) Cell phones should be a zero tolerance policy of no use during class. Use it once, it gets taken away immediately, no warning. (zero tolerance does NOT mean they get suspended automatically, it means they don't get warnings).
2) I really liked the policy mentioned by someone earlier in the thread that the phones should be taken away and the parents are required to pick it up. It stops the distraction and basically forces the parents to do something about it or keep coming in to get the phone, which would be really dang annoying.

As for your quoting, I'm also saying weapons should be ZT. It's been going around circles with the same argument of "but such and such required item in school can be a weapon" being responded with "knives aren't necessary for learning, such and such is." Then there are the usual OT posters who do nothing more than post crap that really does nothing to promote discussion on the topic.

ZT works fine when a well thought out and written policy is formed, along with an appropriate appeals system to allow for the 1 in a million exception to the rule.

People who disagree with me just keep saying all ZT is bad because there are bad ZT policies out there. Yes, there are bad ZT policies out there. There are also good ones out there. You don't hear about them because they don't sell newspapers.

A well written ZT policy can be quite useful, and I provided a quick policy on drugs (literally, 2 minutes to write) and I have yet to be taken up on the challenge to provide a situation where there is no ability to reach an appropriate punishment for breaking the policy that can't be addressed through the appropriate appeal system or simple update to the policy.