Student gets Suspended for taking PIC of napping Teacher!

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GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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Zero Tolerance never, ever, ever, ever

EVER
...ever
ever works.

Simply not true. You don't hear about the well made ones because they aren't suspending people for stupid crap that sells newspapers.

Posted earlier:
Hell, I'll make a ZT policy right now: "All forms of illegal drugs are not permitted on campus. Any person found to have or be in use of these drugs will immediately be detained and local authorities shall be notified. Legal drugs (perscription and over the counter) are not permitted on campus, except for those which the school nurse's office is informed by the parent or guardian, in writing, prior to their use. All over the counter (OTC) drugs in quantities that constitute more than 12 hours of symptom relief are banned and symptoms must be exhibited for OTC to be permissable. Students in violation of this policy are <insert whatever punishment>"

Not perfect, but a few hours of hashing it out, you can make a pretty good policy that is ZT and still reasonable. Add in the ability to appeal the very, very rare occasions that it doesn't make sense, and it's not a big deal.

Give me an instance where this policy is deficient and can not be fixed. Remember, kids, read to the very end. The appeals process is important to know about.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,253
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Are you saying a knife can't stab your "goddamn eye out"?

Read before you post next time. I never said pencils were harmless. I said knives can do more damage for the sheer fact they are multiple use and pens/pencils will break after one.

EDIT: Just for the record, I've been stabbed with a pencil. My friend and I were running to class, I stopped, he didn't. The lead went in about 1/8" into my shoulder and the pencil snapped in half. You can still faintly see the lead.

So are you going to argue that pencils be banned and that everyone should use crayons?
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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I have two teenage boys. And if one of my kids got suspended for something as stupid as taking a picture of a sleeping teacher...

I'd take that day off with him, and we'd have a blast. We'd take a hundred pics of all the fun we had, and then I'd email them to the school admins. (Maybe even photoshop the sleeping teacher into a few of them.) ;)
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
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I'm still missing the need to examine everyone's cutlery. Has there been a massive spate of people being buttered to death that I've missed?

No, no pun or humor intended on this.

the problem is, if nobody is allowed to bring in any metal knives, no matter what type, you can spot one very easily.

The same goes at stadiums and the like. They find it easier to ban all bags, or coolers, or drinks rather that having to search bags, check the coolers and make sure no alcoholic drinks are present. You see a can, you probably did not sell it, go take a look. (There are other reasons, like concession sales, that factor in more than that, but still).

It is just easier to administer and enforce a total ban than a provisional one.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
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I have two teenage boys. And if one of my kids got suspended for something as stupid as taking a picture of a sleeping teacher...

I'd take that day off with him, and we'd have a blast. We'd take a hundred pics of all the fun we had, and then I'd email them to the school admins. (Maybe even photoshop the sleeping teacher into a few of them.) ;)

I would make an appointment to see the admins myself to "discuss" the issue.

Like I said, we are probably not hearing the full story here, but suffice to say, REGARDLESS of this kids past, if he was able to take a picture of a sleeping teacher during class, I do not care if he broke a rule to do so.

Straw man extreme: What if he caught the teacher boinking a 14 year old in the closet? Would he be suspended for taking a picture of that?



BTW, this guy sleeping is nothing compared to some of the senile teachers I had at my old school. Chem teachers that stored acid in old wine jugs and lit gas vents on fire (w/o Bunsen burners). Amazing what people whine about today.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
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I still think we should ban backpacks. We could also ban writing utensils; make all schools go electronic and they're only allowed to use writing utensils at home.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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So are you going to argue that pencils be banned and that everyone should use crayons?


Your schtick is getting a bit long in the tooth. Try something new.

I would make an appointment to see the admins myself to "discuss" the issue.

Like I said, we are probably not hearing the full story here, but suffice to say, REGARDLESS of this kids past, if he was able to take a picture of a sleeping teacher during class, I do not care if he broke a rule to do so.

I'm sure it's not the full story. As for taking the picture - he broke the rule. Suspension is a bit much for something so trivial, though, and they need to re-examine the punishment level. The teacher needs to be gone for good.

Straw man extreme: What if he caught the teacher boinking a 14 year old in the closet? Would he be suspended for taking a picture of that?

He'd probably get in trouble for possession of child pornography. His intentions would be good (to bust the teacher), but his methods are rather illegal (taking pictures of it).

BTW, this guy sleeping is nothing compared to some of the senile teachers I had at my old school. Chem teachers that stored acid in old wine jugs and lit gas vents on fire (w/o Bunsen burners). Amazing what people whine about today.

Yeah, but that really doesn't make what the teacher did any more appropriate. Past bad behaviors by other people really don't justify this teacher's behavior, even if it's relatively tame by comparison. (or the picture less humorous :lol:)
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
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GI, I was referring more along the lines of what people were allowed to get away with in sharp contrast to the pendulum swing in the opposite direction removing all culpability and responsibility from the shoulders of parents and their children.

Teachers are no longer respected professionals that are given the benefit of the doubt. It is now "anybodies fault but mine" when it comes to kids. Parents point fingers and teachers deal with kids that have no respect and no fear of punishment when they get home.


Gotham, the only BP that would be forbidden would be Dora's.

Damn I hate that thing!
 

fatpat268

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2006
5,853
0
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I have neither given you warrant to attack me (other than my opinion differs) nor provoked you into attack. I've kept it civil. I'd appreciate it if you do the same.

Yea, you've kept it civil by trolling everyone else by ignoring half the argument. Your snarkiness doesn't help, and neither is the "woe is me" attitude. You're not the victim here, so just stop it. Seriously.

While I know a lot of people on OT seems to value pointless "zingers" as some form of support to "winning the argument," it doesn't actually do anything to promote discussion of the topic. To some, their entire existance is defined by being a complete jerk to whoever they are replying to. They lead sad and pathetic lives.

While normally I'm an eye for an eye poster (take shots at me, I'll wing them back), I'm trying to avoid doing that going forward as it just sends entire threads into a death spiral of worthlessness.

If you can't handle a discussion without resorting to attacks and insults, then don't reply. It doesn't add anything to the conversation and derails an otherwise worthwhile discussion. I believe my opinions to be right (as everyone believes theirs to be), but I'm open to them being wrong, or at very least seeing it from another perspective. Just jumping in and being a complete jerk just because you disagree doesn't provide any logic or reasoning behind your opinion and just makes you look like you can't come up with anything.

Ok, You're wasting an entire fucking post on this. Good for you.

Funny, because aside from the one comment where I said shut up about the whole sensationalizing deal, I've been pretty civil. The fact that you can't recognize that makes me wonder if I'm talking a brick wall. And I'm being dead serious here. You hear what you want to hear, and that's the truth. You preach about acting like a "grown up," but all I've seen you do is stick your figurative fingers in your figurative years and yell "LALALALALA" like a little child when someone contradicts an argument you've made.

Oops I attacked you again, I guess. I'll expect a paragraph now of "Oh I've done nothing to incite attacks BLAH BLAH BLAH." Just shut up now.

Yes, now I'm doing it on purpose.

No, you don't know what it means. Sorry, but it's true. You are trying to shock and exaggerate using common and necessary items at schools, while I'm using items that aren't common or necessary.

Sensationalize - Present information about (something) in a way that provokes public interest and excitement, at the expense of accuracy

Perhaps both of our accounts are a bit of sensationalism. So what?

Like what? I went through 8-ish years of taking my lunch to school and there wasn't a single instance where it was needed. What exactly has to be in a lunch that REQUIRES a knife? Everything that would require a knife can, and should, be taken care of in the packing of the lunch.

Just because all you ever ate was PB&J doesn't mean the kids have to eat all that too. That's a weak argument and you know it. Should we prepare all foods to be finger foods too, just because you can hurt another kid with a fork too? Should all lunches packed be either soups or sandwiches because we can't afford the safety of our children. Come on. Listen to what you're saying.

My point is there is a line with blurry edges. Some things are less blurry than others. Knives are much less of a blurry line than a water bottle. There are things that can be used as weapons, but they are required for school like pens and pencils. Some things can't be helped, but knives can.

It's a BUTTER knife. You can't discredit other equally harmless things just because it fits your argument.

Name one thing in school where a simple pocket knife is necessary. It's not the 1001 uses of a pocket knife that's the problem. It's the fact that it's not necesary at school and can be dangerous (to yourself and others), with the school held liable.

I too, had a pocket knife. I took it to school a number of times for no real reason. I even recall my 4th grade teacher asking to borrow it (maybe she was just taking it away for the day, now that I think about it...). I never got in trouble for it, though.

9/10, the knife won't be used as a weapon. The issue arises the 1/10 it is, and by the fact that it's completely unnecessary to have a pocket knife in school, it's banned. Just because

My response was mostly to your hasty generalization that guns should be allowed because they're harmless when not used in a harmless manner. I know what a knife is capable of. Is it necessary in a school setting, no but that wasn't the point here.




At any rate, this is just a circular argument here, and is producing absolutely nothing, so I'll just stop here.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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I still think we should ban backpacks. We could also ban writing utensils; make all schools go electronic and they're only allowed to use writing utensils at home.
This is racist because black people can't afford to buy laptops for their 20 kids.
(certain forum members said something to this effect when the idea of requiring ID to vote came up)


Maybe they could just ban certain types of writing tools. The mechanical pencil on my desk would make a good stabbing weapon, so we should limit that to cheap Bic mechanical pencils. Rules are too dangerous. Replaced with tape measures (this is actually not a bad idea because it could be used in math class to demonstrate that A = pi*D actually works). No more pens with metal tips. All pens must be felt pens (not a bad idea since I hated fucking cheap god damn Bic pens that write like shit). No more spoons for stirring your coffee. All coffee must be stirred with your penis. If you don't have a penis, find someone who does and get them to stir it for you.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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The fact that you can't recognize that makes me wonder if I'm talking a brick wall. And I'm being dead serious here. You hear what you want to hear, and that's the truth. You preach about acting like a "grown up," but all I've seen you do is stick your figurative fingers in your figurative years and yell "LALALALALA" like a little child when someone contradicts an argument you've made.

I'm not ignoring any arguments that have been brought up and address each one with counterpoints. Please point out the arguments I've ignored and I will address them.

Just because all you ever ate was PB&J doesn't mean the kids have to eat all that too. That's a weak argument and you know it. Should we prepare all foods to be finger foods too, just because you can hurt another kid with a fork too? Should all lunches packed be either soups or sandwiches because we can't afford the safety of our children. Come on. Listen to what you're saying.

Tell me what problem you have with schools providing utensils for students. Why does that idea make you so angry?

It's a BUTTER knife. You can't discredit other equally harmless things just because it fits your argument.

Take me up on my challenge. Take a butter knife and jam it into your gut. If it's harmless, it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not saying it can be harmful because it supports my argument. I'm saying it can be harmful because it can be harmful.

My response was mostly to your hasty generalization that guns should be allowed because they're harmless when not used in a harmless manner. I know what a knife is capable of. Is it necessary in a school setting, no but that wasn't the point here.

It really doesn't appear that you do know what a knife is capable of if you think that it would do no damage when used with inappropriate intent. You admit that it's not necessary for school (unlike pencils/pens/etc that could be used as a weapon but are necessary). So, outside of being completely and irrationally opposed to everything I say, there is no logical reasoning behind your conclusion, at least none that you've posted.

At any rate, this is just a circular argument here, and is producing absolutely nothing, so I'll just stop here.

Bye.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
0
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GI, I was referring more along the lines of what people were allowed to get away with in sharp contrast to the pendulum swing in the opposite direction removing all culpability and responsibility from the shoulders of parents and their children.

I agree completely. It'll be interesting to see if/when the pendulum swings back the other way.

Teachers are no longer respected professionals that are given the benefit of the doubt. It is now "anybodies fault but mine" when it comes to kids. Parents point fingers and teachers deal with kids that have no respect and no fear of punishment when they get home.

So very true. Teachers get the shaft pretty hard these days. Many of them start off the profession with dreams of making their mark on the world by educating the bright young minds. By the end, they end up bitter from having to spend a significant amount of their own money because of underfunding and jaded from being completely unable to enforce any rules because of a plethora of reasons (parents refusing to believe their own precious jewel could do anything wrong being a large contributer).
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
No, you can't.
1) The pencil/pens will break in the middle pretty easily. Knives won't. You'll get 1 stab with a pen/pencil on an unwilling target. You will get a lot more with a butter knife
2) Knives are meant to be handled in the slashing motion. Pens and pencils aren't.

Butter knives aren't required in school pencils and pens are. This has been covered already. If knives were required for school, this discussion would be quite a bit different.

my drafting mechanical pencil won't break. and a single stab with it is more than enough. the most exposed part of the heart is only an inch or two below the exterior of the chest in most people, the needle on a drafting compass would be enough to reach and puncture it. the mechanical pencil will make an even bigger hole.

a butter knife lacks an edge. it CAN'T cut on a slashing motion. the only reason it cuts through food to any degree is because it's pressing against a hard backing.

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
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Fayd, I am just ignoring the butterknife/pencil crap. It is at least 2 steps away from the OT and has only descended into meaningless bickering.

Now since I couldn't give you all lollipops to shut yer yaps, I just had to ignore the whole distraction and try to get back to the point.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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my drafting mechanical pencil won't break. and a single stab with it is more than enough. the most exposed part of the heart is only an inch or two below the exterior of the chest in most people, the needle on a drafting compass would be enough to reach and puncture it. the mechanical pencil will make an even bigger hole.

And how many kids in elementary and HS have drafting mechanical pencils, or even want them? Heck, I knew kids that took drafting in HS, and never even heard of a drafting mechanical pencil.

a butter knife lacks an edge. it CAN'T cut on a slashing motion. the only reason it cuts through food to any degree is because it's pressing against a hard backing.

your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I guess I wasn't clear as to why exactly I mentioned the grip of the knife. It's because of strength of the product itself. It's very, very easy to break a pencil by putting pressure on the sides of it. This is because it's not meant to take lateral force. Knives, on the other hand, typically are and are built with lateral force in mind, allowing them to withstand a fair amount of force before it starts to break down.

It's use was primarily to illustrate why I believe them to be more dangerous than a pencil, as pencils would amount to a single wound and knives to be capable of multiple wounds. You don't have to agree with me. I conceed that a pencil is pointier than a butter knife, but I still think that overall, you could do a lot more damage with a butter knife due to the fact that it's not a single use weapon.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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Fayd, I am just ignoring the butterknife/pencil crap. It is at least 2 steps away from the OT and has only descended into meaningless bickering.

Eh, the only reason I'm defending it is because butter knives are triggering ZT weapon policies. A few people seem to think that if they put the word "butter" in large letters and bold print or completely ignoring any uses outside of buttering bread, it somehow makes it not a knife and incapable of doing bodily harm. I offered them to prove it with a simple test and I have yet to hear back from any of them regarding the results, so they either tried it and are getting medical attention or didn't trust their own opinion on the matter.

Now since I couldn't give you all lollipops to shut yer yaps, I just had to ignore the whole distraction and try to get back to the point.

I think I'm going to join you in this until someone provides a logical response to provide actual discussion that hasn't been covered in the past two pages already. I expect a lollipop in the mail.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
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I should mention that back in the dark ages when I went to HS, guns were allowed in school because after school was when gun safety and range safety was taught. You had to leave them in your locker til the gun club began. Guess what? No one in the entire school ever shot anyone else or themselves for the three years I was in HS. Oh yeah bows were also allowed in school and you could even learn to build your own in shop class. Nobody ever injured anyone with a bow either. You teach kids how to respect weapons and scum sucking bottom feeding "risk management" types can go back to being IRS agents or ambulance chasers.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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I should mention that back in the dark ages when I went to HS, guns were allowed in school because after school was when gun safety and range safety was taught. You had to leave them in your locker til the gun club began. Guess what? No one in the entire school ever shot anyone else or themselves for the three years I was in HS. Oh yeah bows were also allowed in school and you could even learn to build your own in shop class. Nobody ever injured anyone with a bow either. You teach kids how to respect weapons and scum sucking bottom feeding "risk management" types can go back to being IRS agents or ambulance chasers.

same

i remember makeing a recurve bow in woodworking class. ended being a bitch to pull. nice bow ..hmm wonder where it is. heh
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
How does a story about a kid using his cell phone camera in school become a thread about how to kill with a butter knife and drafting pencil?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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GotIssues, you still refuse to answer the one question I keep asking: Why do you think it's a good idea to limit an administrators ability to exercise judgment when levying punishment to students?

No additional authority to granted by zero tolerance rules. No administrator worth his salary needs them in place to be effective and run a safe, fair school. No student was ever better educated for having a zero tolerance rule in place.

So why are you so in favor of them?
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126
How does a story about a kid using his cell phone camera in school become a thread about how to kill with a butter knife and drafting pencil?

Because people in this thread don't want to debate the actual merits of zero tolerance rules.

They just want to use their debate-fu and win an argument with some sensational debate trick.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
GotIssues, you still refuse to answer the one question I keep asking: Why do you think it's a good idea to limit an administrators ability to exercise judgment when levying punishment to students?

No additional authority to granted by zero tolerance rules. No administrator worth his salary needs them in place to be effective and run a safe, fair school. No student was ever better educated for having a zero tolerance rule in place.

So why are you so in favor of them?

Because he's not giving up on this one. Why keep asking? He's obviously a fucking nut, and I'm sorry if he has anything to do with children in any capacity whatsoever.
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
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GotIssues, you still refuse to answer the one question I keep asking:

I'm not refusing anything. If you brought it up, I missed it. I'm responding to 2-3 people at a time and sifting through 4-5 posts that are the usual OT "I'm going to be a dick and contribute nothing because I want to be seen as clever and funny" type posts.

Why do you think it's a good idea to limit an administrators ability to exercise judgment when levying punishment to students?

Zero tolerance policies have a bad public percenption because the completely terrible ones are making headlines and people just assume that ZT means that if you get caught doing anything, it's an automatic suspension or expulsion. That's simply not true. It's automatic punishment, which can be deemed as ANYTHING from getting the item taken away, to a detention, up to suspensions or expulsions, not exclusively suspensions or expulsions.

They are pretty harmless and very useful when used properly (ironically, much like a pencil or butter knife), and are capable of a lot of damage if they aren't. Do I think a kid deserves a suspension for using his cell phone? No. But if that's what the rule currently is, they need to place that punishment and allow for that punishment to be appealed because there ARE grey areas and perfect rules/punishments don't exist.


No additional authority to granted by zero tolerance rules. No administrator worth his salary needs them in place to be effective and run a safe, fair school. No student was ever better educated for having a zero tolerance rule in place.

I never said ZT was necessary. I said they can be used well and I am in favor of using them in specific areas. With a well written policy, no students learning will be impacted in any way from them. Schools can function just fine without them if they don't need them. They can also function just fine with them.

So why are you so in favor of them?

I am not "make everything zero tolerance" like some people really want me to be so they can have an argument. I'm not advocating removing all decision making skills and judgements from school administrators. I am saying that there are a few things that should be zero tolerance. They need to be well written and allow for appeals to capture the 1 in a million exceptions and/or ability to adjust with the times.

I've actually stated this before, so looking back, I'm not sure how you thought I was avoiding the question.

EDIT: Still waiting for someone to tell me how bad the ZT policy I wrote in two minutes was. No takers?
 

GotIssues

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2003
1,631
0
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Because he's not giving up on this one. Why keep asking? He's obviously a fucking nut, and I'm sorry if he has anything to do with children in any capacity whatsoever.

Great argument. "He doesn't agree with my viewpoints, therefore nut."

Attack the logic behind my conclusion. If you are incapable of that, maybe you should think about your stance on the subject.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
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Still think we really should ban backpacks. And make sure no one brings a sack lunch in a plastic bag.
 
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