Stopped at a red light with a MT car. 1st gear clutch in or neutral?

[ViviTheMage]

That's a good point. I once was almost rear ended by a motorcycle while stopped at a red light. I heard tires screetching and saw it coming up behind me in my mirror (dude was almost laying it down to avoid the impact). I was already in gear so I was able to move out of the way quick enough to avoid being hit.

okay, that makes no sense...unless you live in a rural area.

If you were to look in your rear view mirror and see someone skidding towards you, then all of a sudden GO, you'd be in the intersection, or hitting the car in front of you, or tboned, etc. and YOU would be at fault, and probably cause a more serious accident.

 

[skyking]

No idea what you're talking about.

You had a clutch cylinder leak recently?
Sorry, I mis-remembered your symptoms. I was projecting.
The time I had a failure it was leaking so bad I'd push down on the clutch and in about a minute it would leak by and the clutch would start to engage!

 

[StageLeft]

You had a clutch cylinder leak recently?
Sorry, I mis-remembered your symptoms. I was projecting.
The time I had a failure it was leaking so bad I'd push down on the clutch and in about a minute it would leak by and the clutch would start to engage!

I did, and in fact my second, so that's why I know it doesn't need to be a traumatic event on the line for it to start leaking. Somebody else last month posted about a leaky clutch on here, too. Others will replace their OEM lines with steel braided in an attempt to ward off a future leak. Undoubtedly most leaks in a clutch system are simply seals failing, whether at one of the cylinders or the lines; no need for something to rub or fray them to cause it.

 

[skyking]

I've had the slave fail a few times; usually all the fluid is on the floor in the morning. The time I was remembering, it was the master just leaking by internally. That was freaky.

 

[JDub02]

the correct answer is 1st gear, clutch in.

99.9% of the time, i'll be in neutral. i'm too lazy to hold the clutch in. same goes for my motorcycle. i'll pop it up into neutral while sitting at a light.

 

[JulesMaximus]

It depends. If the light is short I'll probably leave it in 1st with the clutch in, otherwise I'll stick it in neutral until the light changes or is about to change. I do the same thing on my motorcycle.

 

[EightySix Four]

Years ago in driving school they taught us to always stay in gear while stopped in case you have to move rapidly in an emergency situation. Not sure how I feel about it now though, I do both and don't have a standard.

What annoys me is stupid people rocking back and forth. I had some dipshit roll into the front of my car with his pickup a few years ago because he was trying to be cool rocking back and forth at a light.

Usually that means you were too close 😉

 

[KIAman]

Clutch in 1st gear if I am the front car at the light or if the light turns fast or if I am at a stop sign or must make a complete stop because of traffic or I am on an incline up. Neutral if I'm not the first car at the light or if stopping for a train or stopped because very heavy traffic/accident.

The correct answer is situational.

 

[BW86]

Neutral

 

[thomsbrain]

Clutch-in.

Baby Jesus weeps for the first-gear synchros of all you neutral people. Every time you wait until the light is going to change and then jam that shifter into first, you have to grind your input shaft from ~1000 RPM to 0 RPM using nothing but your synchromesh. And Baby Jesus sheds another tear of Holy Water for your sin.

 

[fleabag]

I have never once seen a throw-out bearing fail from someone holding the clutch down at a stop light. It just plain doesn't happen. The throw-out bearing is designed to be replaced when the clutch is replaced and the only times I've seen throw-out bearings fail have been when someone tried to cheap out on a clutch job and re-use an old throw-out bearing, or failed to lubricate the input shaft splines properly which put extra strain on the bearing, or when there was some mechanical defect either in the bearing itself or the release lever that caused excess strain.

The idea that you'll wear out the throw-out bearing by leaving the clutch pedal pushed down at stoplights is nothing more than an old wive's tale. I often wonder how people who worry about their throw-out bearing ever get up the courage to start and drive their cars at all. I mean, running the engine causes the crankshaft bearings to wear and driving causes the wheel bearings to wear...

ZV

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

 

[fleabag]

Driving a car with broken power steering (harder than non-power steering) is quite an arm workout.

I always put in in neutral.

Meh, it's definitely a minor issue if you keep your tires inflated to sidewall...

 

[Possessed Freak]

As if I need some asshole honking their horn at me *after* they already rear ended me because they are in some insane hurry if I am a bit slow starting from a light. Clutch in and 1st gear.

 

[Stefan Payne]

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

less than a second, if it must be...

 

[DivideBYZero]

How bad at shifting do you have to be for it to take time to put it into first and pull away? In stop/start cars it's essential to put it into neutral for it to cut the engine while you wait.

And what's with all the rear ending fear? Are you all driving in the Blue Oyster club?

 

[HannibalX]

Usually that means you were too close 😉

I was NOT too close. You, having not been there with no idea of the circumstances are commenting out of ignorance, usually that means you are an idiot. 😉

I am a real stickler for correct following distance and have a special hate reserved for tailgaters. This numskull stalled while rocking back and forth like a moron and rolled into me. He probably had a similar mental capacity as you in that activating the brakes didn't seem to pop into his brain. I was (as always) a good 15 feet back and with no where to go (stopped traffic on both sides) all I could do was sit there and take the hit.

 

[exdeath]

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

...

Has nothing to do with side loads on the bearing, the load from the pressure plate and fork is next to meaningless. The life of the throwout bearing is primarily determined by how long before the lube dries out and how much clutch dust it's ingested, both of which spinning 24/7 and staying hot greatly accelerate.

Of course this means spinning all the time regardless if your foot is on the clutch pedal, as in the case of being improperly adjusted. Holding it in at lights is insignificant compared to the life of the clutch itself.

If you've ever changed a clutch before and have looked at a worn TOB dried out and caked with brown clutch residue and the inner race starting to splinter and poke out the side of the bearing, you'd know this.

 

[BlackTigers]

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

Have you ever seen a TO bearing? Or for that matter, know how the fork works? lmao.


And I always throw it into neutral, usually coasting distance away from the light.

Just habit.

 

[skyking]

Have you ever seen a TO bearing? Or for that matter, know how the fork works? lmao.


And I always throw it into neutral, usually coasting distance away from the light.

Just habit.

Yeah we see how you treat your clutch in that other thread:hmm:
:awe:

 

[BlackTigers]

Yeah we see how you treat your clutch in that other thread:hmm:
:awe:

😛

Gotta drive it like you stole it!

 

[Bignate603]

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

I work designing bearings and seals for turbine engines and I can tell you that you are incredibly confused. We make plenty of ball bearings that can take large amounts of thrust and radial load simultaneously. Tapered rollers tend to have very high load capacity because the contact area is significantly larger than a ball bearing but they're more expensive to make (a ball and curved raceway are simpler to make than tapered rollers and a coned raceway) and they create more heat in most applications. Typically we don't use them in the turbine engines that we make because we can do a better job with a ball bearing.

Anyways, a throwout bearing will see mostly axial load with most of the radial loading of the balls on the raceway coming from the centrifugal loading of the balls. I can guarantee that the person designing the bearing made sure that bearing could easily withstand that radial loading without any problem at all.

With the loads that these bearings see (relatively small compared to their size) their life in a clean well lubricated environment will be pretty much infinite. The problem is that they don't operate in a perfect environment. A small metal shard can chip the balls and raceway initiating a failure. Additionally, the lubricant can fail. Grease has a lifetime and when it goes bad the bearing runs metal to metal instead of on a film of lubricant. Failure will happen pretty quickly after that.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

The thing is, holding the clutch pedal down for 15-30 seconds at a light isn't "continuous". If the clutch is mal-adjusted and the T/O bearing is being ridden even when the clutch pedal is released, that would be continuous; but that's not what we're talking about. Additionally, as others have pointed out already, the amount of lateral force in play on a properly adjusted T/O bearing just isn't significant.

As Bignate has indicated, T/O bearing failure is almost never due to "wearing out" from normal strain, but rather to either mal-adjustment of the system, lubrication failure, or the introduction of contaminants into the operating environment. None of these are related to usage patterns.

T/O bearings can and do fail, but they don't fail because someone is holding the clutch in at a stop light.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Yeah but the problem is, the throwout bearings aren't designed for continuous lateral load on them. If they were, they would've used tapered bearings instead... The load on the bearings isn't just down, it's also forward and since the bearings are more of the type for just vertical force, it's kinda not a surprise they fail at all. If they used bearings like you see used for your wheels, then this discussion would be moot because they'd clearly be designed for a continuous load.

The only shitty thing about shifting into neutral at a stop light is that when it turns green, you have to shift into 1st which takes times.

They generally don't fail though...read Zenmervolt's post, it's a normal wear item, just like the clutch or your brake pads.

I've owned and driven manuals for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, sometimes I'll hold the clutch in at lights and sometimes I'll leave it in neutral, and never ever had a throwout bearing fail. I have replaced them when replacing the clutch though.

Worrying about extra wear on the throw out bearing is like worrying about smog clogging your air filter...or your lungs. Are you going to stop breathing? Or stop driving your car? Even if you could prove that keeping the clutch pressed in did wear the throw out bearing and that religiously leaving it in neutral would wear it less you'd have to be a complete dumbass not to replace it when replacing the clutch.

Replacing a throw out bearing with your clutch adds about $75-100 to the cost of replacing the clutch (maybe slightly more depending on the car) but even if it was twice that and you replaced the clutch every 50k miles that comes out to four one thousands of a cent for every mile driven...or in other words, practically nothing.

 

[EightySix Four]

I was NOT too close. You, having not been there with no idea of the circumstances are commenting out of ignorance, usually that means you are an idiot. 😉

I am a real stickler for correct following distance and have a special hate reserved for tailgaters. This numskull stalled while rocking back and forth like a moron and rolled into me. He probably had a similar mental capacity as you in that activating the brakes didn't seem to pop into his brain. I was (as always) a good 15 feet back and with no where to go (stopped traffic on both sides) all I could do was sit there and take the hit.

Love how you had to turn a joke into a personal attack. Notice the smiley. I completely understand that situations on the road vary and I wasn't there. Usually that situation arises when one is following to close, but not always, which is why I put the word "usually" and the smiley face afterword.

Go grab a beer or something and chill out, sheesh.

 

[exdeath]

Replacing a throw out bearing with your clutch adds about $75-100 to the cost of replacing the clutch (maybe slightly more depending on the car) but even if it was twice that and you replaced the clutch every 50k miles that comes out to four one thousands of a cent for every mile driven...or in other words, practically nothing.

Nah, your basic no frills OEM quality $150 boxed clutch set for an average commuter car includes at least a TOB and alignment tool, if not a pilot bearing and capsule of grease.