Started building systems at work today, oh my god! POLL: Should i mention some things to them _I_ think is wrong?

[apoppin]

My $.05 worth.

3 days on the job is way too soon to be making recommendations. After you get to know your co-workers and your boss you will know and won't have to run to us for advice.

In the meantime, your fellow employees aren't making mistakes serious enough to comment on (yet - if ever).

 

[grant2]

I find your unethical views of the way 'business' works to be rather shortsighted, but that's just my opinion.

Giving customers what they pay for is unethical? Only in your myopic "only super-duper expensive top of the line computers are worth buying" world...

For a start, this question has NOTHING to do with ego.

It has EVERYTHING to do with ego. Some people here think they're smarter than the rest of the world when it comes to computers and can only believe that anyone who does different, is WRONG.

If you think that troubleshooting a product, and bringing faults in the product to the attention of your supervisor is egotistical, then I hope to god, like has been mentioned already, that you are never involved in anything mission-critical.

In fact you just described my job.

Why don't you stop and look at the nonsense you are writing? I've made it clear that Confused should bring up his concerns *AFTER* he knows how things already work. Villifying me won't change HIS legitimate naivete about his new company.

Noticing an OBVIOUS MISTAKE IN ASSEMBLY (because that's what this HSF problem is, nothing less.)

it's not necessarily a mistake, as Vinny_n has pointed out.

Get off your pedastal and clue in that the world does not revolve around YOU and YOUR ideas of assembly perfection. There is life outside ATF. I only hope that Confused is willing to consider new concepts, as obviously you are not.

and POLITELY SUGGESTING a resolution is NOT 'trying to run the business'.

I know that, you know that, but does Confused's boss know that?? Just let him cool his heels until he's confident the boss will actually listen to him.

and it takes a mere 3 days to spot a problem in construction

Once again, I ask: who says it's a problem?? Not the customer, not the boss, just a bunch of ATF strangers. I dont hate to burst your bubble... but customers' & boss's options are worth a LOT more than yours in this situation..

It's your job as a system builder to ensure that the systems are built to the best of your ability.

... WITHIN the parameters you are given. Or are you suggesting he throw in more expensive DDR ram that the customer isn't paying for because "that's to the best of his ability"?? Around here we call that ripping off your company.

So if he and everyone (besides you, grant.)

"everyone" besides the boss, the other assemblers, the customers, some ATF members, etc.... I guess you "forgot" those people eh?

he talks to believe that there are shortfalls, then it's not just his perogative but his obligation as a technician to at least make a mention of it.

I agree, but if he's smart he'll make sure he'll actually be listened to first. Since you're talking about "ethics" then "ethically" he should do whatever it takes to make sure his great advice is actually heeded.

So far all anyone has said is either 'keep your mouth shut and do your job', or "SUGGEST that MAYBE this MIGHT make a BIT of a difference"

Learn to read; *I* have said "keep your mouth shut UNTIL you're respected"

 

[grant2]

Originally posted by: McCarthy
Well grant2 if you're going for the good german award, fear not, you have my vote.

Trying to equate ram preferences with Naziism/Facism/Genocide is the most idiotic thing I've heard all month.

Most Germans adore democracy as much as any other modern nationality. Your racism is disgusting.

 

[Whitedog]

My final advice to you is this:::::

If they are paying you to build computers with their specs... then build the computers to their specs.... period.

You don't have to buy them, and/or recommend them to anyone. Just build computers and go home at the end of the day.

If, after you've worked their for a substantial amount of time, you'll get to know your co-workers/bosses enough to openly discuss your opinions without worry.

Just do what theyare paying you to do and don't worry about it. It'll work out in the end.

 

[grant2]

what i simply refuse to believe, grant2, is that you are ADVOCATING the selling of inferior products to unknowing consumers.

I did no such thing. I'm ADVOCATING that Confused learns his place before acting like Mr. Know-it-all.

 

[grant2]

man, what is this egotistical stuff you keep talking about? why do you talk about it as if its evil to have an ego?

The "egotistical stuff" is where the new guy starts telling the experienced staff how they "should" do things. It's not "evil", it's just annoying.

it seems a very self-destructive attitude to take to think that you have to "check your ego at the door" at any time when your experience and expertise is needed.

I didn't say check your experience & expertise at the door.

being proud of your knowledge and your abilities isnt a crime;

Can't I be proud of myself without telling other people how they are wrong?

if anything, keeping mum, hiding in the corner, being afraid of what others may think of your self-confidence

I'm not "afraid" of acting like a show-off at work, it would just be a stupid thing to do.

and ultimately achieving nothing with your life is something that should go punished.

Lots of people achieve LOTS with their life without being showoffs.

i cant speak for you, but i am very proud of what i know and what i am capable of doing. it doesnt mean that im stuck up about it, just that im confident in my abilities and aware of my limitations.

As am I. But I'm also wise enough to realize everyone else is confident in THEIR abilities, and sometimes it's pointless to tell them they are wrong.

 

[MrMaster]

I am labeled by my boss as having a bad attitude and told not to fight the system. This is because I ask a lot of questions and am always trying to find ways to do things faster and cheaper.

So that is why I say don't tell them. It might piss them off (ego problem) or they might think you are a know it all.

You can't fight the system!

but you can look for new jobs.

 

[grant2]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
This sort of attitude is the thing that employers do not want. Employees have a duty to the company to try to make suggestions to make it run more efficiently, and effectively.
...
Though even that could be a problem - some managers might take offense to the fact that their beloved company has problems that need improving.

You have contradicted yourself. Please write again when you have decided which point of view you believe =)

 

[Den]

Originally posted by: grant2
Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego? I assume you get paid the same amount whether their computers are good or bad.

Why would you continue to build bad computers and not say anything? This is what you seem to imply is the correct thing to do. Or am I misreading you?

And yes, I have read the rest of the thread.

 

[CelticDemolition]

two things, grant2:

me: what i simply refuse to believe, grant2, is that you are ADVOCATING the selling of inferior products to unknowing consumers.

you: I did no such thing. I'm ADVOCATING that Confused learns his place before acting like Mr. Know-it-all.

yes, yes you did.

you: because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!

McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.

you werent talking about confused and his situation at work. you were talking about industries in general. i still want to know how you justify selling inferior products to consumers, without telling me that "thats just how its done sometimes."

also, you still didnt address my point here:

you: Why "MUST" this this terrible social plague of sub-optimal CPU cooling be corrected immediately? We haven't been told that cpus are dying because of this; customers & management appear to be happy... what's the harm in confused just saying nothing until he's actually respected & knowledgeable enough to be listened to?

me: i suppose respect just falls into peoples laps or something. you have to EARN respect, my friend. you earn it by proving your worth. correct the error. demonstrate your knowledge and prove your worth to your employer. earn respect.

you keep saying that confused should just keep his mouth shut until hes respected. but i ask you, if he keeps his mouth shut, how the hell is he ever going to be respected? respect isnt just rationed out to everyone who shows up on time.

 

[CelticDemolition]

Originally posted by: CrazySaint
You're all fanATIcal nVidiotic fanboys!!!!

hehe... hows this one?

you fanboys are all so goddAMD unINTELigent!!!!

 

[grant2]

"McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.
you werent talking about confused and his situation at work. you were talking about industries in general. i still want to know how you justify selling inferior products to consumers, without telling me that "thats just how its done sometimes."

First off I said "mediocre" not "inferior". Furthermore, pointing out (correctly) that business *CAN* thrive doing so is a lot different than ADVOCATING it.

you keep saying that confused should just keep his mouth shut until hes respected. but i ask you, if he keeps his mouth shut, how the hell is he ever going to be respected? respect isnt just rationed out to everyone who shows up on time.

Uhh by doing his job of course.

However, since you think respect is earned by telling strangers how they are wrong, I will earn yours thus:

You're obviously too (hotheaded/belligerent/specious) to discern the meaning of multisyllabic words like "mediocre," "inferior," and "advocate." Thus I will cease responding to you until you consult a dictionary.

 

[CelticDemolition]

careful who you call hotheaded, grant... so far one of us has refrained from making any personal attacks. if you want to maintain your credibility youll keep your flamethrower in check.

First off I said "mediocre" not "inferior". Furthermore, pointing out (correctly) that business *CAN* thrive doing so is a lot different than ADVOCATING it.

i like how you avoided answering my question. i believe that the computers that confuseds company is making are fundamentally flawed in that the cooling properties are inadequate. im talking about the hsf/as problem, not anything to do with memory type and selection. this makes the products not only "inferior," but "defective," an adjective far beyond "mediocre," my dictionary-wielding friend. do you personally believe in doing business in such a manner?

Uhh by doing his job of course.

ive already explained this part. you make vague references to "his job" while not really defining what it entails. ive said that confuseds job is to build computers to the best of his ability. he cant do this while knowing full well that hes screwing up the installation of the heatsink. therefore, doing his job means correcting any errors he finds in the assembly process, am i right?

if you do your job well, you earn respect. if you do it poorly, you dont. how well do you do your job?

However, since you think respect is earned by telling strangers how they are wrong, I will earn yours thus:

You're obviously too (hotheaded/belligerent/specious) to discern the meaning of multisyllabic words like "mediocre," "inferior," and "advocate." Thus I will cease responding to you until you consult a dictionary.

i almost didnt want to reply to this. never have i wanted confused to tell his coworkers that they are wrong. i know theyre not applying arctic silver to their thermal tape INTENTIONALLY... i mean, come on. you can give someone a better way to do something without necessarily implying that they lack some mental faculty... which brings us to your statement, interestingly enough. i dont owe you respect, and subsequently you dont owe me any either (which is what makes these forums so *ahem* interesting at times), but it can be earned. i had thought i had made my position on earning respect quite clear for you, but perhaps i was mistaken, so let me clarify: you can earn my respect by arguing with me in a logical, critical, but ultimately civil manner. you arent required to do so, but if you do not you will find that you will gain nothing from this forum except some childish satisfaction that comes from the anonymous slander of others. i highly doubt that you are so bold in person.

 

[McCarthy]

Germany's a country, not a race. In any case, I was refering to stand by and say nothing mindset. But in the spirit of accepting advice as given, I'll refrain from using that expression in order to avoid offending. See? Telling others how to improve their processes does work.

I don't see where Jeff7 contradicted himself. What he said in essence was that the right thing should be done even if it does cost you personally. I guess he should have said employers "in general" or used some other qualifier to avoid the nit picking. The idea is still sound.

I also admit I hadn't priced ram recently and therefore hadn't noticed DDR has gone above the price of SDR again. Looking at Crucial, PC2100 looks to be $36 for 128 meg, whereas SDR is $25. Ok, $11 less per system is significant enough I suppose, though I'm still bothered by "all" the P4 systems being SDR. Goes back the omission I was speaking of earlier. Maybe people buying new computers are willing to save $11 even after being fully informed of the significant loss in performance, though I doubt it. Oh yeah, around $17 difference if they go for 256 meg, though with 512 individual sticks the price is the same. Then again if you're pairing a P4 with SDRam in the first place why bother going over 128? It'll work "good enough".

I'd hoped Confused would drop in and give us some more grist for the mill, but alas no.

-Mc

 

[RemyCanad]

I am going to look up some reviews of a P4 with DDR or RDRAM vs P4 with SDR. If I am correct in what I am thinking the performance loss is, it would be like buying two totaly defferent computers.

And as for the heatsink compund issue after responding a little and reading this last argument I would just not put the past on there. If they ask I would tell them I read the info sheet on the P4 to make sure I was doing it right and it said not to use both. If they have a problem so be it. If they told me to go back to the old way, I would first calmly explain to him that it is the wrong way and I could not live with my self knowing that customers will be getting defective equipment. If he said you do it or your fired I would say well I will have to quit. And I would then spend my free time telling people of the horrible ways they build computers.

Also doing so is kinda like if you bought a new car and they had put the wrong type of transmition fuel in your car. Maby it was supposed to be the kind were you never have to change it but they used the standard type. You follow your directions and never chnage it but later on your cars trany locks up. You go to the mechanic and he tells you why it locked up. I would be so angry. There is nothing you can do about it either.

I am done rambling time to find some benchmarks.

 

[PH0ENIX]

Giving customers what they pay for is unethical?
Only in your myopic "only super-duper expensive top of the line computers are worth buying" world...

When did I say only the expensive top-of-the-line machines are worth buying? I merely suggested contruction quality should not be inferior.

It has EVERYTHING to do with ego. Some people here think they're smarter than the rest of the world when it comes to computers and can only believe that anyone who does different, is WRONG.

Some people maybe, but not me.
Im not saying they're wrong because they're doing it differently, they're wrong because, you guessed it, they're doing it incorrectly.

Why don't you stop and look at the nonsense you are writing? I've made it clear that Confused should bring up his concerns *AFTER* he knows how things already work. Villifying me won't change HIS legitimate naivete about his new company.

Actually i'm not 'villifying' you - you seem to have that sorted out for yourself - and I disagree, I think he should make a subtle mention NOW.

it's not necessarily a mistake, as Vinny_n has pointed out.

Get off your pedastal and clue in that the world does not revolve around YOU and YOUR ideas of assembly perfection. There is life outside ATF. I only hope that Confused is willing to consider new concepts, as obviously you are not.

whoooo daddy! Hypocrits galore!
Since when is the Heat spreader on a P4 concave? Since when did Intel recommend using both the thermal pad AND grease? Since when did using TOO MUCH thermal compound become a good thing? Read some cooler reviews - it's not just us 'ATF forum-goers' who are saying it - Dansdata.com would be a good start...

My pedestal? Im the one reccomending that he shows some kind of self-conciousness, you're telling him to sit down and shut up because his Boss will not only be uncaring, but angry that one of his technicians actually gives a sh!t about what he's doing...

Plus, you're telling ME that there's life outside of ATF - when you have 4x the amount of posts as me?
Most of them will probably be just you defending your views, from the looks...

... WITHIN the parameters you are given. Or are you suggesting he throw in more expensive DDR ram that the customer isn't paying for because "that's to the best of his ability"?? Around here we call that ripping off your company.

Hmmm... yes, I remember saying something about the DDR memory... really I do :/
SDRAM on a P4 isn't a PROBLEM, and I never said it was. Customers should definately be offered the option, and informed of the performance benefits for such a tiny price difference - but that's more of a sales thing.

"everyone" besides the boss, the other assemblers, the customers, some ATF members, etc.... I guess you "forgot" those people eh?

Obviously Psyionics is one of your strong points - being that we dont KNOW if any of the other assemblers agree with him - probably because they share your mindset so they keep chewing on grass like they're told. The customers - if they fully understood, WOULD care... not 100% of them, but i've been a customer before, and though i'd never get anyone else to build a system for me, if I did, i'd want it to be done right.

'some ATF members'... i'd say a good 90% - should we have a poll?

What would your reaction be if they were doing this with AMD processors?

I agree, but if he's smart he'll make sure he'll actually be listened to first. Since you're talking about "ethics" then "ethically" he should do whatever it takes to make sure his great advice is actually heeded.

No-one's ever going to listen to him if he doesn't demonstrate his knowledge, so thats a bit of a paradox wouldn't you say?
Where I live, we call it looking after the interests of your company. We also call it 'using your brain'. You might call it 'one for the too-hard-basket'.

Celtic;

Word - back at you.

But somehow I think it'd be easier to convince the pope that there is no god.

EDIT: coupla typos, said HSF instead of heat spreader, coupla spllelleling muztakes...

 

[BurnItDwn]

If you can help, than Help, The company will be better off because of it. The company i work for pays cash Bonuses for good suggestions if they go with it, and you are the first to suggest.

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: McCarthy

I'd hoped Confused would drop in and give us some more grist for the mill, but alas no.

-Mc

Probably because he spoke up and they pummeled him and took away his computers to put in paste, TIM, and SDRAM.

 

[CelticDemolition]

i think weve lost him

*taps*

 

[grant2]

Originally posted by: CelticDemolition
you can earn my respect by arguing with me in a logical, critical, but ultimately civil manner. you arent required to do so, but if you do not you will find that you will gain nothing from this forum except some childish satisfaction that comes from the anonymous slander of others. i highly doubt that you are so bold in person.

CelticDemolition, you are right that there's no call for personal attacks in ATF. It was never my intent to insult you personally- my rhetoric just got a little out of bounds after others' insults got me worked up. I'm sorry for slighting you.

As for the subject of the thread, can we just rationalize our differing opinions by labelling you slightly idealistic, and me slightly cynical?

 

[CelticDemolition]

np d00d... i can totally understand. thanks a lot for the apology... its really rare for anyone to give a rip around here.

As for the subject of the thread, can we just rationalize our differing opinions by labelling you slightly idealistic, and me slightly cynical?

yeah, i think that about sums it up.

i still think im right though...