oh... so i suppose YOU smear gobs of arctic silver onto the thermal tape on the bottom of YOUR hsf?
oh... so i suppose YOU smear gobs of arctic silver onto the thermal tape on the bottom of YOUR hsf?
On my personal system, I use AS and follow their directions. For building systems for sale, I follow Intel guidelines and use their pad. It's all about the warranty, and I'm not eating it.
then i think you would agree that using the two together in combination is dangerous and should be corrected.
these problems fall into two different categories. there are the technical problems, such as the hsf/as problem; and the business problems, such as the p4/sdram problem. the former is something that i believe confused is obligated to correct, not just blindly follow when he (and everyone else) knows it to be wrong. the choice of memory for the p4 is something he can (and, i think, should) suggest, but is not obligated to do so as the choice is really up the owner of the company.
maybe to clarify, i think some of you have been replying to me as if i was talking about the p4/sdram problem and not the hsf/as problem. i would def wait a little bit before making suggestions there. but you have to make your mark somewhere, and i bet you would all agree that correcting the hsf/as problem is the way to do it.
the problem is that a lot/most ATF members can only look at things from the technical side, and *NOT* the business side. "why shouldn't you want to make your company's products better?" because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!
i gotta reply to this too. this makes no sense. sometimes crappy products can be gotten away with without a decrease in profits, and sometimes good products arent recognized and bring no profit increase, but it is NEVER true that a better product will see a decrease in profits simply because it is better. yes, it may be that no one will crack the case and remark "hey! they got the arctic silver job right! this product is excellent," but you can rest assured that someone will notice if it is done poorly. you may or may not see a tangible gain in business, but you will certainly NOT see a decline...
these problems fall into two different categories. there are the technical problems, such as the hsf/as problem; and the business problems, such as the p4/sdram problem. the former is something that i believe confused is obligated to correct, not just blindly follow when he (and everyone else) knows it to be wrong. the choice of memory for the p4 is something he can (and, i think, should) suggest, but is not obligated to do so as the choice is really up the owner of the company.
maybe to clarify, i think some of you have been replying to me as if i was talking about the p4/sdram problem and not the hsf/as problem. i would def wait a little bit before making suggestions there. but you have to make your mark somewhere, and i bet you would all agree that correcting the hsf/as problem is the way to do it.
the problem is that a lot/most ATF members can only look at things from the technical side, and *NOT* the business side. "why shouldn't you want to make your company's products better?" because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!
i gotta reply to this too. this makes no sense. sometimes crappy products can be gotten away with without a decrease in profits, and sometimes good products arent recognized and bring no profit increase, but it is NEVER true that a better product will see a decrease in profits simply because it is better. yes, it may be that no one will crack the case and remark "hey! they got the arctic silver job right! this product is excellent," but you can rest assured that someone will notice if it is done poorly. you may or may not see a tangible gain in business, but you will certainly NOT see a decline...
This is why even though I like the idea of having a local computer shop I can't bring myself to go into one. Last time I was in a local (and dating my comments by the parts mentioned) there was a couple in looking for their first computer. They'd seen their friends printing banners and calenders and thought that was something they'd like to do. So the clerk tells them they needs MS Word. They wanted to be able to write letters to send to people over the internet, though they doubted they'd use it very often. So he said they'd need 128 meg of ram if they wanted to get on the internet, and as the shop also sold cable modem accounts they'd need that too, though he still wanted to put a 56k in their system because some internet applications won't work right without a modem, or so he claimed. They weren't sure what else they wanted to do, but wanted to get a basic computer to learn on.
So, while this same shop was selling Celerons as "PII-266mhz" systems, the clerk decides they need a Xeon to handle all their tasks. "While a PII is ok for some things, a Xeon would really work a lot better for what you need" he tells them. I'm thinking "a 386 with Printshop" and he's telling them a Xeon with MS word to make a banner or a calender. So I placed myself behind the clerk where the couple could see me, but where his back was to me and kept mouthing "bullsh*t" each time he said something. The husband caught on, but didn't seem sure, the wife apparently thought I had an honest face and after he'd said a few more things that even people without a computer knew to be bull they walked out. May not have saved them forever, but at least they weren't going to blow 5 grand on some piece of crap shopbuilt clunker that day. If I had it to do over today perhaps I'd be mouthing "Dude, you're getting a Dell".
At present a friend of mine is pricing components for a friend of hers to build a 'top of the line system for gaming and weather modeling' dunno what software exactly. Guess this guy was in an accident, still doesn't get around well yet, so she's doing the legwork. And as she built her own system (that barely works) she thinks she's an expert now. Last I knew before she quit talking to me she had a Athlon 2100+ on an SDram board with a VIA686 southbridge with a GF4MX420 and a SB Live picked out. He wanted a GF4 for the games, shop is selling MX's as straight GF4's. He wanted an audigy, but the shop owner explained how the Live is better. Neither of them want to mail order anything (watching local news and the doom stories of identity theft or something I figure) so they're doing it through the parts and advice available at local shops.
Confused, I think as a good person it's your responsiblity to try to point out things to your boss and coworkers. Even moreso, to be honest with the customers. You might not last long there if it's as tacky a place as those I've experienced, but if the owner has a brain in the long term it'll be better for you, he and your job. Might as well find out early on.
--Mc
So, while this same shop was selling Celerons as "PII-266mhz" systems, the clerk decides they need a Xeon to handle all their tasks. "While a PII is ok for some things, a Xeon would really work a lot better for what you need" he tells them. I'm thinking "a 386 with Printshop" and he's telling them a Xeon with MS word to make a banner or a calender. So I placed myself behind the clerk where the couple could see me, but where his back was to me and kept mouthing "bullsh*t" each time he said something. The husband caught on, but didn't seem sure, the wife apparently thought I had an honest face and after he'd said a few more things that even people without a computer knew to be bull they walked out. May not have saved them forever, but at least they weren't going to blow 5 grand on some piece of crap shopbuilt clunker that day. If I had it to do over today perhaps I'd be mouthing "Dude, you're getting a Dell".
At present a friend of mine is pricing components for a friend of hers to build a 'top of the line system for gaming and weather modeling' dunno what software exactly. Guess this guy was in an accident, still doesn't get around well yet, so she's doing the legwork. And as she built her own system (that barely works) she thinks she's an expert now. Last I knew before she quit talking to me she had a Athlon 2100+ on an SDram board with a VIA686 southbridge with a GF4MX420 and a SB Live picked out. He wanted a GF4 for the games, shop is selling MX's as straight GF4's. He wanted an audigy, but the shop owner explained how the Live is better. Neither of them want to mail order anything (watching local news and the doom stories of identity theft or something I figure) so they're doing it through the parts and advice available at local shops.
Confused, I think as a good person it's your responsiblity to try to point out things to your boss and coworkers. Even moreso, to be honest with the customers. You might not last long there if it's as tacky a place as those I've experienced, but if the owner has a brain in the long term it'll be better for you, he and your job. Might as well find out early on.
--Mc
grant2;
You dont by any chance work for NEC tech support, do you?
Hey, we've sold em it, it aint broke, it's substandard components which are badly assembled but hey! we got our money!
*sigh*
One thing to remember is showing intiative.
Your boss may be the kind of person who appreciates someone who takes the time to improve on existing product.
Dont say 'you shouldn't be doing this...'
go for what others have suggested, a more 'i've heard that...' approach.
But if you do have concerns then why not voice them in a non-undermining fashion, and look at the response?
The fact is, that in the clone-PC market you are only going to sell on 3 factors.
A) price. You do get your average joe who doesn't care what it is, as long as it opens his documents.
B) Price/performance - the major factor for clones; a comparable Tier-1 system should be a fair bit more expensive - as you pay the premium for service.
C) Believe it or not, service... sure they're clone PC's but the reason Gateway was able to eclipse Joe Blogg's backyeard computer sales is because Gateway did offer limited legacy support on their older systems - meaning you dont get some idiot saying 'oh well that's too old now you'll have to upgrade and basically pay for a whole new system'
So if your build quality is superior to other clone manufacturers, you use components that meet a decent price/perf ratio, and you employ service technicians that dont just sit there trying to drag on a problem so they dont have to start the next one before their lunchbreak - you want someone that goes 'well this rubber band holding this heatsink on this athlon is probably not a good idea...'
Anything less and you shouldn't be building systems; you should be working in a taiwanese sweatshop making Nike footwear - where quality counts for thereabouts what ethics do...
You dont by any chance work for NEC tech support, do you?
Hey, we've sold em it, it aint broke, it's substandard components which are badly assembled but hey! we got our money!
*sigh*
One thing to remember is showing intiative.
Your boss may be the kind of person who appreciates someone who takes the time to improve on existing product.
Dont say 'you shouldn't be doing this...'
go for what others have suggested, a more 'i've heard that...' approach.
But if you do have concerns then why not voice them in a non-undermining fashion, and look at the response?
The fact is, that in the clone-PC market you are only going to sell on 3 factors.
A) price. You do get your average joe who doesn't care what it is, as long as it opens his documents.
B) Price/performance - the major factor for clones; a comparable Tier-1 system should be a fair bit more expensive - as you pay the premium for service.
C) Believe it or not, service... sure they're clone PC's but the reason Gateway was able to eclipse Joe Blogg's backyeard computer sales is because Gateway did offer limited legacy support on their older systems - meaning you dont get some idiot saying 'oh well that's too old now you'll have to upgrade and basically pay for a whole new system'
So if your build quality is superior to other clone manufacturers, you use components that meet a decent price/perf ratio, and you employ service technicians that dont just sit there trying to drag on a problem so they dont have to start the next one before their lunchbreak - you want someone that goes 'well this rubber band holding this heatsink on this athlon is probably not a good idea...'
Anything less and you shouldn't be building systems; you should be working in a taiwanese sweatshop making Nike footwear - where quality counts for thereabouts what ethics do...
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,154
- 1,801
- 126
I'd suggest perhaps DIPLOMATICALLY bringing up the thermal paste issue: "I read that for CPUs, one needs either a thermal 'gum' or thermal paste but that using both wasn't recommended. What do you think?"
As for SDRAM on a P4, it's not "wrong" in that it's still a valid option, just not ideal. Combining thermal paste and a pad isn't really a valid option, because it runs counter to everyone's instructions.
As for SDRAM on a P4, it's not "wrong" in that it's still a valid option, just not ideal. Combining thermal paste and a pad isn't really a valid option, because it runs counter to everyone's instructions.
If you can go in to work from day to day and knowingly .... improperly assemble something as high-tech as a PC ...... and not open your mouth and share your knowledge, in some way or other (crudely or with tact) ............ then you have a whole lot better self control than I do!!!
"you're a better man than I am ...... Gunga-Din."
What if they were in business assembling something really important ......... like pace-makers ....... or artificial heart valves ....... ???
"you're a better man than I am ...... Gunga-Din."
What if they were in business assembling something really important ......... like pace-makers ....... or artificial heart valves ....... ???
well, obviously he DOES know how to run it better
That's not obvious at ALL. How many computer retail businesses has he owned? How many have YOU owned? It's safe to assume "ZERO".
What's "obvious" is that whoever owns the business has proven a lot more competence running this type of company than him, you, or me.
it's that "gosh, don't ask me, i just work here" attitude which leads to so much of what is wrong with the world today.
IF they ask him, yes of course he should give his opinion. But they haven't. And there's no way that some fresh recruit is going to understand the entire business in only 3 days, so he should keep his unsolicited opinions to himself until he *DOES* understand the entire business.
That's not obvious at ALL. How many computer retail businesses has he owned? How many have YOU owned? It's safe to assume "ZERO".
What's "obvious" is that whoever owns the business has proven a lot more competence running this type of company than him, you, or me.
it's that "gosh, don't ask me, i just work here" attitude which leads to so much of what is wrong with the world today.
IF they ask him, yes of course he should give his opinion. But they haven't. And there's no way that some fresh recruit is going to understand the entire business in only 3 days, so he should keep his unsolicited opinions to himself until he *DOES* understand the entire business.
these problems fall into two different categories.
who's to say these are problems? Confused hasn't seen any customers complaining, so they don't have a problem. The boss hasn't complained to confused either, so no problem there.
It seems like the only "problem" here is that hardware fanatics are galled that the entire world doesn't follow THEIR ideal of a perfect computer system.
there are the technical problems, such as the hsf/as problem; and the business problems, such as the p4/sdram problem.
Why are you making it sound like there are 4 or more "problems" when Confused specifically mentioned there were only 2?
the former is something that i believe confused is obligated to correct, not just blindly follow when he (and everyone else) knows it to be wrong.
Why "MUST" this this terrible social plague of sub-optimal CPU cooling be corrected immediately? We haven't been told that cpus are dying because of this; customers & management appear to be happy... what's the harm in confused just saying nothing until he's actually respected & knowledgeable enough to be listened to?
the choice of memory for the p4 is something he can (and, i think, should) suggest, but is not obligated to do so as the choice is really up the owner of the company.
Of course the choice is up to the owner of the company. And as far as we know, the owner is happy. Customers are happy. So what's wrong with confused actually getting a few paycheques from this place before he starts telling everyone how they're wrong wrong wrong??
i bet you would all agree that correcting the hsf/as problem is the way to do it.
A better way? probably. A NECESSARY way? not according to what we've been told about the company.
because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!
i gotta reply to this too. this makes no sense.
(...)
but you can rest assured that someone will notice if it is done poorly.
(...)
McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.
who's to say these are problems? Confused hasn't seen any customers complaining, so they don't have a problem. The boss hasn't complained to confused either, so no problem there.
It seems like the only "problem" here is that hardware fanatics are galled that the entire world doesn't follow THEIR ideal of a perfect computer system.
there are the technical problems, such as the hsf/as problem; and the business problems, such as the p4/sdram problem.
Why are you making it sound like there are 4 or more "problems" when Confused specifically mentioned there were only 2?
the former is something that i believe confused is obligated to correct, not just blindly follow when he (and everyone else) knows it to be wrong.
Why "MUST" this this terrible social plague of sub-optimal CPU cooling be corrected immediately? We haven't been told that cpus are dying because of this; customers & management appear to be happy... what's the harm in confused just saying nothing until he's actually respected & knowledgeable enough to be listened to?
the choice of memory for the p4 is something he can (and, i think, should) suggest, but is not obligated to do so as the choice is really up the owner of the company.
Of course the choice is up to the owner of the company. And as far as we know, the owner is happy. Customers are happy. So what's wrong with confused actually getting a few paycheques from this place before he starts telling everyone how they're wrong wrong wrong??
i bet you would all agree that correcting the hsf/as problem is the way to do it.
A better way? probably. A NECESSARY way? not according to what we've been told about the company.
because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!
i gotta reply to this too. this makes no sense.
(...)
but you can rest assured that someone will notice if it is done poorly.
(...)
McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.
Well grant2 if you're going for the good german award, fear not, you have my vote. BTW, are you going to the Arthur Anderson company picnik this year?
Other people might actually have a conscience and follow it. Note I didn't give any suggestions on approach, so much of that has to do with the people and environment and it's up to Confused to read it. But to not point out errors is as bad as committing them himself, and even if the computers "work good enough" that's no excuse for providing someone with an incorrectly assembled piece of merchandise, especially when in the two examples given the cost would be equal (ram) or less (thermal pad+compound) to do it properly. SDRam isn't "wrong", but if they're not telling customers what their options are then the omission is, IMNTBHO anyway. Frankly the only reason I can see for anyone to go with SDRam with AMD or iNTEL at this point is because you're redoing your own computer and have a lot of ram to reuse and want to save some money. For a new purchase it's asinine to go with SDRam over DDR when the retail (and more than likely the wholesale) prices are the same. Unless he's just clearing out a bunch of old SDRam he got on the cheap, then it's shady if the suspected omission is true, but not asinine. Either way, if the shop owner isn't aware DDR is the same price or aware of the performance he should be enlightened. I used to go in and talk to the owner of the shop I mentioned before every now and then when I was picking up a few motherboard standoffs or something and found he didn't pay attention to anything new. Good guy for running diagnostics, a wiz with 286's with flakey serial ports, probably good at keeping his books balanced, but in the end his customers suffered, whether they realized it or not. Just because the computer is "good enough" today that they don't complain doesn't mean they've been treated right.
Maybe I'm mistaken. Make people are coming into the shop and saying "I'd like a computer built for $----, and I'd like to have half the available memory bandwidth others are getting for the same amount of money. Oh, and slop lots of goop all over the CPU." Guess that could be....
Actually if I recall correctly AMD says to use the thermal pad and not use paste with their socket A chips, though most around AT prefer to go with AS instead of pads. If they're using silicon paste with the pads then the silicon paste itself is contrary to AMD's recommendations as well as common sense. Looked around AMD.com a minute or two and couldn't find it for you though.
Out of morbid curiousity, does this shop sell Durons as Durons or as vaguely named "AMD 1ghz systems" or perhaps even call them Athlons? What do they do with nVidia MX cards, sell them as MX's or as GF2's and GF4's? I mean what's the shop doing in other areas?
--Mc
Other people might actually have a conscience and follow it. Note I didn't give any suggestions on approach, so much of that has to do with the people and environment and it's up to Confused to read it. But to not point out errors is as bad as committing them himself, and even if the computers "work good enough" that's no excuse for providing someone with an incorrectly assembled piece of merchandise, especially when in the two examples given the cost would be equal (ram) or less (thermal pad+compound) to do it properly. SDRam isn't "wrong", but if they're not telling customers what their options are then the omission is, IMNTBHO anyway. Frankly the only reason I can see for anyone to go with SDRam with AMD or iNTEL at this point is because you're redoing your own computer and have a lot of ram to reuse and want to save some money. For a new purchase it's asinine to go with SDRam over DDR when the retail (and more than likely the wholesale) prices are the same. Unless he's just clearing out a bunch of old SDRam he got on the cheap, then it's shady if the suspected omission is true, but not asinine. Either way, if the shop owner isn't aware DDR is the same price or aware of the performance he should be enlightened. I used to go in and talk to the owner of the shop I mentioned before every now and then when I was picking up a few motherboard standoffs or something and found he didn't pay attention to anything new. Good guy for running diagnostics, a wiz with 286's with flakey serial ports, probably good at keeping his books balanced, but in the end his customers suffered, whether they realized it or not. Just because the computer is "good enough" today that they don't complain doesn't mean they've been treated right.
Maybe I'm mistaken. Make people are coming into the shop and saying "I'd like a computer built for $----, and I'd like to have half the available memory bandwidth others are getting for the same amount of money. Oh, and slop lots of goop all over the CPU." Guess that could be....
Actually if I recall correctly AMD says to use the thermal pad and not use paste with their socket A chips, though most around AT prefer to go with AS instead of pads. If they're using silicon paste with the pads then the silicon paste itself is contrary to AMD's recommendations as well as common sense. Looked around AMD.com a minute or two and couldn't find it for you though.
Out of morbid curiousity, does this shop sell Durons as Durons or as vaguely named "AMD 1ghz systems" or perhaps even call them Athlons? What do they do with nVidia MX cards, sell them as MX's or as GF2's and GF4's? I mean what's the shop doing in other areas?
--Mc
You dont by any chance work for NEC tech support, do you?
Hey, we've sold em it, it aint broke, it's substandard components which are badly assembled but hey! we got our money!
Confused is (as far as i can tell) assembling the computers, not selling them. Rushing out of the back room every time a sale is about to happen yelling "Don't buy that computer!! It has only adequate ram!!" will only get him fired really fast.
One thing to remember is showing intiative.
One thing to remember is that managers usually hate to be told they're wrong, owners hate it even more, ESPECIALLY from the new kid who doesn't even have a nametag yet.
Your boss may be the kind of person who appreciates someone who takes the time to improve on existing product.
Maybe, maybe not. A smart person figures that out BEFORE shooting off their mouth.
But if you do have concerns then why not voice them in a non-undermining fashion, and look at the response?
Cuz if you haven't proven yourself and earned some respect for your intelligence, you'll at best be ignored and at worst fail your probationary period for not fitting in..
Anything less and you shouldn't be building systems; you should be working in a taiwanese sweatshop making Nike footwear - where quality counts for thereabouts what ethics do...
typical hardware-fanatic attitude... "it's unethical to build a system that isn't super-duper-high-performance-blazing-fast, no matter how much the customer wants it." However, to the rest of the world, computers are just tools. As long as it performs adequately, that's all that matters.
Hey, we've sold em it, it aint broke, it's substandard components which are badly assembled but hey! we got our money!
Confused is (as far as i can tell) assembling the computers, not selling them. Rushing out of the back room every time a sale is about to happen yelling "Don't buy that computer!! It has only adequate ram!!" will only get him fired really fast.
One thing to remember is showing intiative.
One thing to remember is that managers usually hate to be told they're wrong, owners hate it even more, ESPECIALLY from the new kid who doesn't even have a nametag yet.
Your boss may be the kind of person who appreciates someone who takes the time to improve on existing product.
Maybe, maybe not. A smart person figures that out BEFORE shooting off their mouth.
But if you do have concerns then why not voice them in a non-undermining fashion, and look at the response?
Cuz if you haven't proven yourself and earned some respect for your intelligence, you'll at best be ignored and at worst fail your probationary period for not fitting in..
Anything less and you shouldn't be building systems; you should be working in a taiwanese sweatshop making Nike footwear - where quality counts for thereabouts what ethics do...
typical hardware-fanatic attitude... "it's unethical to build a system that isn't super-duper-high-performance-blazing-fast, no matter how much the customer wants it." However, to the rest of the world, computers are just tools. As long as it performs adequately, that's all that matters.
If you can go in to work from day to day and knowingly .... improperly assemble something as high-tech as a PC ...... and not open your mouth and share your knowledge, in some way or other (crudely or with tact) ............ then you have a whole lot better self control than I do!!!
It doesn't take self control, it just takes experience to realize it's best to check your ego at the door when you get to work.
Working in a company is part of being on a team, and every player has their own role to play. Confused's roll, currently, is to learn how things work and prove that he has competence and work ethic to be respected. The fact that he has to ask irrelevant strangers if he can discuss issues with his managers is proof enough that he still has a lot to learn about the company.
Confused, instead of posting a thread on ATF, you may want to go straight to the source and ask your manager "How do I make suggestions to improve things here?" ... his/her response will be a MUCH better guide than anything we (myself included) could write.
It doesn't take self control, it just takes experience to realize it's best to check your ego at the door when you get to work.
Working in a company is part of being on a team, and every player has their own role to play. Confused's roll, currently, is to learn how things work and prove that he has competence and work ethic to be respected. The fact that he has to ask irrelevant strangers if he can discuss issues with his managers is proof enough that he still has a lot to learn about the company.
Confused, instead of posting a thread on ATF, you may want to go straight to the source and ask your manager "How do I make suggestions to improve things here?" ... his/her response will be a MUCH better guide than anything we (myself included) could write.
Grant2
I sincerely hope I never have the misfortune to be a customer of any business that you have involvement in.
I find your unethical views of the way 'business' works to be rather shortsighted, but that's just my opinion.
For a start, this question has NOTHING to do with ego. If you think that troubleshooting a product, and bringing faults in the product to the attention of your supervisor is egotistical, then I hope to god, like has been mentioned already, that you are never involved in anything mission-critical.
Noticing an OBVIOUS MISTAKE IN ASSEMBLY (because that's what this HSF problem is, nothing less.) and POLITELY SUGGESTING a resolution is NOT 'trying to run the business'.
And if a guy who 'walks in off the street' knowing as little as everyone is trying to make out he does, and it takes a mere 3 days to spot a problem in construction that is easily resolved and though not critical, is definately worth addressing; then it kinda makes you wonder what ELSE is going on there.
It's your job as a system builder to ensure that the systems are built to the best of your ability. So if he and everyone (besides you, grant.) he talks to believe that there are shortfalls, then it's not just his perogative but his obligation as a technician to at least make a mention of it.
No-one has said "yep - go in there make a song and dance, tell customers not to buy the product, tell your boss he doesn't know what he's doing, and refuse to build any more PCs until it's rectified."
So far all anyone has said is either 'keep your mouth shut and do your job', or "SUGGEST that MAYBE this MIGHT make a BIT of a difference"
I dont think I can use any more caps to eccentuate my point.
So yeah, sure, sit there, keep your mouth shut, build systems the way people with limited technical knowledge tell you to, and keep that initiative where it belongs, bottled up and locked away where it cant hurt anyone by doing things like, oh I dunno, engineering the moon landing :/
Oh yeah - Bo peep said to say she was looking for you.
I sincerely hope I never have the misfortune to be a customer of any business that you have involvement in.
I find your unethical views of the way 'business' works to be rather shortsighted, but that's just my opinion.
For a start, this question has NOTHING to do with ego. If you think that troubleshooting a product, and bringing faults in the product to the attention of your supervisor is egotistical, then I hope to god, like has been mentioned already, that you are never involved in anything mission-critical.
Noticing an OBVIOUS MISTAKE IN ASSEMBLY (because that's what this HSF problem is, nothing less.) and POLITELY SUGGESTING a resolution is NOT 'trying to run the business'.
And if a guy who 'walks in off the street' knowing as little as everyone is trying to make out he does, and it takes a mere 3 days to spot a problem in construction that is easily resolved and though not critical, is definately worth addressing; then it kinda makes you wonder what ELSE is going on there.
It's your job as a system builder to ensure that the systems are built to the best of your ability. So if he and everyone (besides you, grant.) he talks to believe that there are shortfalls, then it's not just his perogative but his obligation as a technician to at least make a mention of it.
No-one has said "yep - go in there make a song and dance, tell customers not to buy the product, tell your boss he doesn't know what he's doing, and refuse to build any more PCs until it's rectified."
So far all anyone has said is either 'keep your mouth shut and do your job', or "SUGGEST that MAYBE this MIGHT make a BIT of a difference"
I dont think I can use any more caps to eccentuate my point.
So yeah, sure, sit there, keep your mouth shut, build systems the way people with limited technical knowledge tell you to, and keep that initiative where it belongs, bottled up and locked away where it cant hurt anyone by doing things like, oh I dunno, engineering the moon landing :/
Oh yeah - Bo peep said to say she was looking for you.
About the thermal grease vs phase change pad...
TennMax.com has the one case where you could use both
Has anyone read AMD's docs for systembuilders?
Unless you're using something as nice as Artic Silver which won't dry out, thermal grease is NOT an appropriate solution.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26003.pdf page 15 of 24.
BTW, just tell them. The worse they can do is laugh and ignore you, or say you're wrong.
But at least you told them and if problems ever occur such that you can be proven to be right
TennMax.com has the one case where you could use both
Has anyone read AMD's docs for systembuilders?
Unless you're using something as nice as Artic Silver which won't dry out, thermal grease is NOT an appropriate solution.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26003.pdf page 15 of 24.
BTW, just tell them. The worse they can do is laugh and ignore you, or say you're wrong.
But at least you told them and if problems ever occur such that you can be proven to be right
Why "MUST" this this terrible social plague of sub-optimal CPU cooling be corrected immediately? We haven't been told that cpus are dying because of this; customers & management appear to be happy... what's the harm in confused just saying nothing until he's actually respected & knowledgeable enough to be listened to?
i suppose respect just falls into peoples laps or something. you have to EARN respect, my friend. you earn it by proving your worth. correct the error. demonstrate your knowledge and prove your worth to your employer. earn respect.
well, yeah, confused hasnt mentioned any customers storming the place demanding to know why their comps wont boot. but everyone knows higher heat leads to shorter cpu life. dont you think someone might notice if their system craps out 6 months later while his neighbors is still running smoothly? yeah, i suppose the odds of any one person suspecting inferior quality are low, but if you consider the number of people getting computers of inferior quality from this store, the odds of being found out rise considerably.
McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.
what i simply refuse to believe, grant2, is that you are ADVOCATING the selling of inferior products to unknowing consumers. i'm not sure how you justify that. yes, i do realize that is the way things are done in this country sometimes, but... that doesnt justify a goddamn thing. yeah, i know... ethics again... man i talk about those a lot...
the bottom line is this: confused is hired to do a job. this job entails assembling computers, and im sure it is expected that he is to accomplish this to the best of his ability. i dont believe there is anything else to be said.
i suppose respect just falls into peoples laps or something. you have to EARN respect, my friend. you earn it by proving your worth. correct the error. demonstrate your knowledge and prove your worth to your employer. earn respect.
well, yeah, confused hasnt mentioned any customers storming the place demanding to know why their comps wont boot. but everyone knows higher heat leads to shorter cpu life. dont you think someone might notice if their system craps out 6 months later while his neighbors is still running smoothly? yeah, i suppose the odds of any one person suspecting inferior quality are low, but if you consider the number of people getting computers of inferior quality from this store, the odds of being found out rise considerably.
McDonalds, General Motors, and Walmart dominate their respective markets, yet somehow you think that mediocre quality at a low price isn't a path to commercial success? Time for a clue-injection man.
what i simply refuse to believe, grant2, is that you are ADVOCATING the selling of inferior products to unknowing consumers. i'm not sure how you justify that. yes, i do realize that is the way things are done in this country sometimes, but... that doesnt justify a goddamn thing. yeah, i know... ethics again... man i talk about those a lot...
the bottom line is this: confused is hired to do a job. this job entails assembling computers, and im sure it is expected that he is to accomplish this to the best of his ability. i dont believe there is anything else to be said.
Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego?
It doesn't take self control, it just takes experience to realize it's best to check your ego at the door when you get to work.
man, what is this egotistical stuff you keep talking about? why do you talk about it as if its evil to have an ego?
/me about to get philosphical
it seems a very self-destructive attitude to take to think that you have to "check your ego at the door" at any time when your experience and expertise is needed. being proud of your knowledge and your abilities isnt a crime; if anything, keeping mum, hiding in the corner, being afraid of what others may think of your self-confidence, and ultimately achieving nothing with your life is something that should go punished. i cant speak for you, but i am very proud of what i know and what i am capable of doing. it doesnt mean that im stuck up about it, just that im confident in my abilities and aware of my limitations. if having an ego is wrong, then, baby, i dont wanna be right. ()
btw, anyone here read 'the fountainhead'?
It doesn't take self control, it just takes experience to realize it's best to check your ego at the door when you get to work.
man, what is this egotistical stuff you keep talking about? why do you talk about it as if its evil to have an ego?
/me about to get philosphical
it seems a very self-destructive attitude to take to think that you have to "check your ego at the door" at any time when your experience and expertise is needed. being proud of your knowledge and your abilities isnt a crime; if anything, keeping mum, hiding in the corner, being afraid of what others may think of your self-confidence, and ultimately achieving nothing with your life is something that should go punished. i cant speak for you, but i am very proud of what i know and what i am capable of doing. it doesnt mean that im stuck up about it, just that im confident in my abilities and aware of my limitations. if having an ego is wrong, then, baby, i dont wanna be right. (
)btw, anyone here read 'the fountainhead'?
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
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"Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego? I assume you get paid the same amount whether their computers are good or bad. "
I was going to say something rather negative about this, figuring it would start a flamewar, because no one wants to take suggestions, even if they are helpful; and if one's view is debated, said person often becomes defensive and irrational. But what the heck; the thread's already going downhill...
This sort of attitude is the thing that employers do not want. Employees have a duty to the company to try to make suggestions to make it run more efficiently, and effectively. Using either the thermal pad OR the grease would help lower costs, and also improve the quality of the produced goods. Apathy about one's work is really damaging to the company, sometimes as much as or moreso than simple ignorance. Ignorance can be cured with information.
"you may want to go straight to the source and ask your manager "How do I make suggestions to improve things here?" ... his/her response will be a MUCH better guide than anything we (myself included) could write."
That's probably the best suggestion grant2's made here. Though even that could be a problem - some managers might take offense to the fact that their beloved company has problems that need improving. Perhaps a letter?
I was going to say something rather negative about this, figuring it would start a flamewar, because no one wants to take suggestions, even if they are helpful; and if one's view is debated, said person often becomes defensive and irrational. But what the heck; the thread's already going downhill...
This sort of attitude is the thing that employers do not want. Employees have a duty to the company to try to make suggestions to make it run more efficiently, and effectively. Using either the thermal pad OR the grease would help lower costs, and also improve the quality of the produced goods. Apathy about one's work is really damaging to the company, sometimes as much as or moreso than simple ignorance. Ignorance can be cured with information.
"you may want to go straight to the source and ask your manager "How do I make suggestions to improve things here?" ... his/her response will be a MUCH better guide than anything we (myself included) could write."
That's probably the best suggestion grant2's made here. Though even that could be a problem - some managers might take offense to the fact that their beloved company has problems that need improving. Perhaps a letter?
ehh, its not that bad. nobodys made any personal attacks yet. at least theres no way to call anyone a fanboy on this thread, is there?
so, confused... did anything happen at work yet? im really curious to find out what you decided...
so, confused... did anything happen at work yet? im really curious to find out what you decided...
Regarding the use of SDRAM for the Pentium 4 CPU. I dont see why everyone gets pissed about this combo. SDRAM right now, 7/31/02 is WAY cheaper than DDR PC2100, and a lot of customers are cost conscious and dont really care about speed as long as its "fast enough". Everybody gots their price and any smart business owner would know to offer computers for every price level from entry level to high end.
As an employee at a computer related retail store I can gaurentee that most the majority of computer shops make money off the service rather than selling the parts and systems. If john doe makes the same amount of money from SDRAM system and DDR/RAMBUS systems then wouldnt it be smart to just concentrate on selling SDRAM based systems since more people will buy cheaper systems ?
As for the mixing of Artic silver and the stock thermal pad. Ive never seen or done it personally but if the CPU aint smoking and the bios temps are within respectable levels then who cares? as long as it works.
As an employee at a computer related retail store I can gaurentee that most the majority of computer shops make money off the service rather than selling the parts and systems. If john doe makes the same amount of money from SDRAM system and DDR/RAMBUS systems then wouldnt it be smart to just concentrate on selling SDRAM based systems since more people will buy cheaper systems ?
As for the mixing of Artic silver and the stock thermal pad. Ive never seen or done it personally but if the CPU aint smoking and the bios temps are within respectable levels then who cares? as long as it works.
Sounds like you work for some Dolts. I'd tell them like it is... If they get hot with you, I wouldn't worry about it, then again, if you show them you know what the heck you're talking about, that always looks good.
If the job is really important to you, I'd tell them tactfully. If it's not that important of a job, I'd tell them they are out of their minds and need to get a clue.
Don't stress over it, for sure.
If the job is really important to you, I'd tell them tactfully. If it's not that important of a job, I'd tell them they are out of their minds and need to get a clue.
Don't stress over it, for sure.
yeah you should. And when you do make sure you have your silenced pistol with you. If they give you lip, just start pistol whipping them...and don't forget to strafe and bunny hop to avoid the AWP whores. *whip* wshhpshh *whip* COUNTER TERRORISTS WIN
Jeff7:
I for one, can attest to managers not wanting to hear about possible problems or improvements. There's alot of managers out there who may act like they want their ideas, but after they get them, nothing happens. Had a particularly bad example of this in my last job - the owner sat everyone down, split us into groups, had us discuss any problems/improvements that came to mind, had us write them down and turn them. It was supposed to be anonymous...
Anyways, they got, I'd say, 25-30 GOOD ideas for saving money/improving efficiency. Guess how many were implemented after 3 months later? NONE. They talk the talk about wanting ideas, but won't use them - even the ones that cost them NO money weren't done.
I've seen similar happenings in at least 3 other companies that I can think of right off the top of my head.
The way they act, I figure it's better to just shut yer mouth, do what you're told, learn all you can from them, and go elsewhere. Their loss.
I for one, can attest to managers not wanting to hear about possible problems or improvements. There's alot of managers out there who may act like they want their ideas, but after they get them, nothing happens. Had a particularly bad example of this in my last job - the owner sat everyone down, split us into groups, had us discuss any problems/improvements that came to mind, had us write them down and turn them. It was supposed to be anonymous...
Anyways, they got, I'd say, 25-30 GOOD ideas for saving money/improving efficiency. Guess how many were implemented after 3 months later? NONE. They talk the talk about wanting ideas, but won't use them - even the ones that cost them NO money weren't done.
I've seen similar happenings in at least 3 other companies that I can think of right off the top of my head.
The way they act, I figure it's better to just shut yer mouth, do what you're told, learn all you can from them, and go elsewhere. Their loss.
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