Started building systems at work today, oh my god! POLL: Should i mention some things to them _I_ think is wrong?

[Confused]

I've started to build systems at my new job, been there 4 days (first 3 days in the shop) and they do a couple of things i have learnt here that shouldn't be done, and i'm debating whether i should say anything.

Firstly, when building them, they use thermal paste as well as the "bubble gum" already on the heatsinks. They also use quite a bit of paste, rather than just a thin layer.

Secondly, they are selling all their P4 systems with SD RAM! :Q The shop manager was saying that he hardly sells any P4 systems in the shop, that he can't remember the last time he did! I mean the only way to get any performance out of the P4 is with DDR at least! And DDR isn't that much difference in price to SDR, the only difference might be in the price of motherboard. They're also selling most Duron rigs with SDR as well, tho that isn't too bad.


I mean what do i do!? I have always thought that these are not the way of doing it, so i would like to say something, but don't want to come across in a "oh he thinks he knows everything, he's only just started, we should know what we're doing we don't need him telling us what to do, this isn't right" sorta way

Do you guys reckon i should go with my feelings and knowledge i've built up here and speak up (and maybe come over badly), or keep my mouth shut and let it build up inside me that i feel i'm doing it wrong?

If some people can provide GOOD evidence/links of why thermal paste/bubble gum shouldn't be used together, why to only use a thin layer of paste, and why P4s suck so much with only SDR and the difference in prices between budget SDR and DDR boards (with onboard sound/modem) and in the memory itself, then i might be able to speak up with some good evidence behind me


Confused

Edit: To those that vote No, a little explaination please?


PS: Mods - It's hardware related, i want people's opinions on what is best hardware wise (on various bits of hardware too) - If not then please move to appropiate forum

 

[Semidevil]

easy. Next time you see them make a mistake, just say "I heard that..... <this is where you insert your better solution>" see how they react. If they seem rather surprised and interested, just continue explaining to them. If they are like "yea, whatever," I would keep the mouth shut.

I mean, the last thing you want to do is to seem higher and smarter then your co-workers. This could lead to big trouble later on.

just play along.

 

[IJump]

Ask them why they do it the way they do it.... then offer your reasons for doing it another way... I will have to look later for links/evidence to support your claims....

 

[Chadder007]

....my coworkers are always like "yeah whatever" - especially the Director. I usually have to go behind them and fix things.

 

[Robor]

If you just started I say keep your mouth shut and don't rock the boat. If you throw this stuff in their faces they might think you're trying to tell them they are clueless idiots, which they may well be. Do your job for a bit and once you become "one of the group" bring up your concerns.

One thing you've gotta remember is most people don't care about the performance of their PC or what goes in it. I know it's sick but when I recommend a PC to people they want to know the cheapest route, not what's the best in performance or even the best bang for the buck.

 

[Marrkks]

I think semidevil pretty much hit the nail on the head. just say "I heard that.." or "I was wondering why you do/don't......". make them feel like you are coming to them for their "knowledge". It is also important to obsereve their reaction. If they appear annoyed or irritated, you might just have to let it go, and keep your eyes open for another job.:frown:

just my .02.

 

[grant2]

Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego? I assume you get paid the same amount whether their computers are good or bad.

 

[onelin]

well, from here and Arctic Silver's site, I guess this is why to not use both thermal paste and the gum-stuff that comes on stock HSF's.

The stock 'gum' poorly transfers heat, and on top of that, once it is heated it will permanently melt into the heatsink and you won't be able to remove it. That said, logic follows on to conclude that this will negate the benefits of using a secondary thermal paste in unison with the gum with poor heat transfer. In addition, too much thermal paste is possibly worse than not enough

However, I think you should be careful with how you approach the matter... try what semidevil said or Robor (i.e. once you're one of the group) Cleaning off the 'gum', properly cleaning the heatsink, and then applying thermal paste also takes a great deal of time...time, that for these consumers, might be better spent anyway. I mean, as long as there's no overheat issue, is there an issue? It's true that most people aren't elitist about things like this, only a select group and on top of that, those people wouldn't buy pre-built computers anyhow

note: I believe this 'gum' as you call it is actually more of a wax..., though very gum-like. I may well be wrong, tho It's been a while since I read the whole AS3 installation guide, heh.

the RAM is a totally diff story entirely.

 

[Bleep]

There are only 2 rights given 1. The management has the absolute right to manage in any way they see fit. 2. The workers have the right to orginize.
The business must be sucessfull. Just work and say nothing. it is their money and their business, if they are not bothering your personal life dont bother their business. Believe me it is a good way to lose a job. They must not be having any failures with their machines to cause them to give any thought to changing their building habits.
Bleep

 

[networkman]

If you're working for someone else, that person is generally going to expect you to put forth some effort in your job. In this case, it means using your talents and knowledge. A good approach would be to download some reviews and tech data verifying what you know to be true(from someplace like, oh. say.. Anandtech?) and then presenting it to the boss. You want to make sure you don't come off as "holier than thou" or something.. just explain that you're a geek and you're used to tweaking systems for maximum performance. Heck, it might even be a good way to explain Distributed Computing too.

 

[Wiz]

If it were my company I would be concerned that the hardware is installed according to mfg specs.
If Intel says to put the P4 on using the pad and paste then so be it, if just the pad then that is the way I would have my employees do it.
Maintaining a clear warranty path is a primary concern, the systems need to run as specified and be built according to vendors specs.

 

[RemyCanad]

At a previous job I had a similar situation. My boss was not very knowledgeable in computers and such but he thought he was. I was the only employee, basically becuase there is no one in this town that knows much about computers. (Excluding the large company employees). He relied on me heavly for everything and no one could replace me so I had pretty good job security. So I would tell him things that he was doing wrong by saying that I read in a tech book that you can't or shouldn't...Fill in blank. The would say hmm and kinda ignore me. But about a week later he would come to me and said he read that bla bla bla and it would be the same stuff I told him... Kinda pissed me off but it did keep me happy. People would want to buy computers from use becuase I worked there and they knew me. But I couldn't let them with how he wanted them put together. Oh well I have a much better job now.

Oh yeah I worked for and ISP/Computer Store.

 

[GrumpyMan]

You could always print the articles and reviews that you read and leave them lying around your work area so the other techs will see that you know what you are talking about at first. But I wouldn't just go around telling them that there is a better way of doing things. At least inicially.

 

[Cosmic_Horror]

If you are going to say anything, then do it in terms of lowering costs, eg recommend that you could save money by not using thermal paste if you already ahve a thermal pad on a heatsink. Go to the website of the heatsinks that you use, some have a guide about installation etc. seecoolermaster installation page as it has a bit about using one OR the other not both...

With sdram on the P4, you might want to put it in terms of increased sales as people feel that a p4 with ddr is faster than a p4 with sdram... esp if you can back it up with benchmarks... try and bring it up in casual conversation,.... eg, friend of your read online or in a mag that a p4 with ddr was heaps faster and ask him what he thinks about it.. if there are others advertising systems based on ddr sdram also mention it...

Never tell you boss he is doing something wrong, try and recommend a better way and a reason why in terms he will understand, lowering costs, increasing sales, better reliability hence lower warrentee claims.. etc... try the thermal paste one first and his reaction will tell you how to work in other suggestions...

good luck

 

[CelticDemolition]

Originally posted by: grant2
Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego? I assume you get paid the same amount whether their computers are good or bad.

i totally have to disagree here... the only measure of a human being is how honestly and how well they perform their work. ethically, i dont think you should just sit idle when you are given an opportunity to make the products YOU create better in some way. also, logically, why shouldn't you want to make your company's products better? theyre paying you, and it follows that if they dont get the money, you wont get paid; and maybe even if you get them more money, they may pay you more...

 

[kgraeme]

"Holy Crap! Are you on crack?!?"

That's what you need to say when you see them putting thermal paste on with a P4 thermal pad. Do it with a face like this: :Q

Of course, it's too late to act shocked and dismayed now since you've seen them do it already. The reason why they do it like they do is because that's the way they've always done it. SDRAM was good enough 2 years ago, so it must be fine today. And themal paste was necessary back before good thermal pads came along. It gets extra confusing when the official documentation is contradictory. Intel expects you to use their thermal pad. Motherboard manufacturers often write in their manuals that you should use thermal paste. Which is right? Both in different situations.

As Wiz said, the most important thing is following manufacturers specs in order to remain in warranty. That means using the stock HSF and the thermal pad. And there are certainly PC133 boards still available and if that's what the owner chooses to buy, then so be it. The systems may not be rockets, but they will work. Heck, Dell still sells P4 systems with PC133.

 

[Wolfsraider]

there is a shop i frequent that sounds a lot like this one your talking about.

my story:
i found a little hole in the wall computer shop in my area that came highly recommended for price
i went to buy me a p-3 500 but after seeing how they built the computers i wrote down how i wanted mine. it still took them 5 weeks to get the right parts and to get the kinks out although some never went away
they only use sdram no ddr or rambus only thermal pads and they slap the parts in and load drivers as fast as possible then hand it to the customer after taking their money.this was how i got my first computer.
i asked about upgrading some of the stuff like video etc they handed me a s-3 card for gaming 8 mb lol
up from a trident 1 mb.this is how most mom and pop operations are making money here.
i kept buying parts from them but it was beyond their grasp,ati all in one a few years ago they ordered 6 cards before they got the right one.
then i got my friends together(this guys prices were the best i could find)and we just ordered the parts
like ddr ram top of the line video etc about 10 of my friends actually had computers built later after convincing him that there were advantages to catering to the gamers lol now he has moved into a bigger building his second since i started visiting and he still does a lot of the skimping like he used to but only when told "whats cheaper"
his customer count has trippled. since he now offers more choices and has a bigger selection.
he even tests the computers to see if all the drivers work and there are no problems

it wasn't untill after they tried to fix the driver issues that i was having on mine that they realized what i meant about performance being worth my money,compared to the model they sold- it blew them away.

 

[Booster]

Don't bother saying them anything. At least for a good amount of time before you become a team member. Right now it would be a disaster.

 

[CubicZirconia]

Originally posted by: grant2
Why would you say anything except to stroke your own ego? I assume you get paid the same amount whether their computers are good or bad.

He is probably a decent person who feels that because he has knowledge that could help cut costs while at the same time improve performance he should share it. Everything isn't always about making money.

 

[kmmatney]

I agree with Wiz's post some ways up. You should do things the right way, and in this case it means according to the manufacturer's specs when it comes to cpu thermal management. They should be using AMD approved heat sink and fans, and whatever thermal interface material those come with, whether it be a thermal pad or heat sink compound. I've never heard of a hsf coming with both...

It certainly sounds like they should try advertising some systems for gamers, with DDR and faster parts...

 

[BillClo]

I'd lay low for awhile, personally. I've had nothing but trouble bringing ideas for improvement to my managers over the years. Every attempt I ever made to suggest ideas for improvement was shot down with little consideration. There's alot of managers out there who have this ego thing that if they didn't think of it, it's sh*t. Regardless of how much it might improve efficiency or save money.

Needless to say, these experiences have left me bitter and cynical, so nowadays, I just shut my mouth and let them do it their way, even if I think it's wrong. At my age, the jobs are getting harder come by (subtle age discrimination), and it just isn't worth struggling with the idiots anymore.

 

[grant2]

i totally have to disagree here... the only measure of a human being is how honestly and how well they perform their work. ethically, i dont think you should just sit idle when you are given an opportunity to make the products YOU create better in some way. also, logically, why shouldn't you want to make your company's products better? theyre paying you, and it follows that if they dont get the money, you wont get paid; and maybe even if you get them more money, they may pay you more...

Doing what you are told isn't "dishonest" or "unethical". That's just the rationalization someone would use as an excuse to show off how they think they know better.

Obviously this guy's opinion is *NOT* solicited, or else he wouldn't be undecided on whether to give it.

Are the customers unhappy? Are the computers dying and no one can figure out why? If not- then there's no problem, so he doesn't need to fix what isn't broken.

the problem is that a lot/most ATF members can only look at things from the technical side, and *NOT* the business side. "why shouldn't you want to make your company's products better?" because a "better" product doesn't necessarily mean more profits, and that's the name of the game!!

 

[grant2]

He is probably a decent person who feels that because he has knowledge that could help cut costs while at the same time improve performance he should share it. Everything isn't always about making money.

Some punk walks in off the street and within 3 days thinks he knows how to run the business better than the people who own it?? TOTAL EGO

This guy was hired as a TECHNICIAN, not a BUSINESS ANALYST. At least take the time to prove you are competent at the first before attempting to be the second.

 

[CelticDemolition]

well, obviously he DOES know how to run it better, since the business they are in is building computers, and they are doing it wrong. and what better way to prove his competence as a technician by finding and correcting a flaw such as the one he discovered?

and i still believe that better products will only mean better things for the company. it's that "gosh, don't ask me, i just work here" attitude which leads to so much of what is wrong with the world today.

 

[kgraeme]

If he can't produce manufacturer's recommendations and possibly even professional studies showing the cost/benefit ratio, then he has no business telling people how to run their business. Just because he hangs out at some hardware forum talking to some people on the internet and reads some heatsink reviews written by people who call their dorm-room desk a "bench" doesn't qualify as good source material.