Starcraft 2 - Read Post #2 for a useful beginner guide

[Aikouka]

I don't think its griefing as he losses a big chunk of the initial economy.

I think you might have a different definition of griefing... although, in the WoW sense, griefing is generally frowned upon. I'm usually considering it (in SC as) using a tactic that is the equivalent of an annoying fly . Kind of like the guy that sends 2 reapers up someone's cliff into their base and tries to attack their workers.

It's not illegal by any means, but they usually do it to pester, or in my use of the term... grief the other player.

It seems most people use the term cheesing a lot different than I'm used to. I've been using that term since way back when I'd play Street Fighter II Turbo and it was used to describe a "one-move wonder" as in someone that would use one move because it was a pain in the butt to win when they just spammed it.

 

[Pia]

I think you might have a different definition of griefing... although, in the WoW sense, griefing is generally frowned upon. I'm usually considering it (in SC as) using a tactic that is the equivalent of an annoying fly . Kind of like the guy that sends 2 reapers up someone's cliff into their base and tries to attack their workers.

The definition of griefing is stuff that is done in order to piss off other players and not to win. Neither gas steals nor early reapers are griefing. Actually, about the only thing in random Starcraft matches which would count as griefing is when a player draws out a match without trying to win or draw. For instance, flying your buildings to all corners of the map and forcing the opponent to hunt them down, or building nothing but planetary fortresses and turrets.

Pestering the other player in order to hurt their economy, divide their concentration, cause them to make mistakes, to force them off certain strategies and to limit the freedom of their troops is called "harass" as in "reaper harass" or "mutalisk harass" and it's one of the cornerstones of the game. You should generally be doing it yourself in some fashion nearly every game.

 

[getbush]

add me, I'm a noob

DirkMcgirk.276

 

[evident]

holy crap, how do you beat the last mission on hard? i get overrun at around the 50% mark every time.

 

[Glitchny]

holy crap, how do you beat the last mission on hard? i get overrun at around the 50% mark every time.

go back a page in this thread and read the spoiler tagged convo that trident and I and few others had discussing it. Try those strats.

 

[Aikouka]

Pestering the other player in order to hurt their economy, divide their concentration, cause them to make mistakes, to force them off certain strategies and to limit the freedom of their troops is called "harass" as in "reaper harass" or "mutalisk harass" and it's one of the cornerstones of the game. You should generally be doing it yourself in some fashion nearly every game.

I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose given your use of quotes, but the words "harass" and "grief" can be used fairly interchangeably. Even in WoW, griefing does not necessarily mean that no one benefits from it. For example, back in the days of world bosses, players would get naked and attempt to have Lord Kazzak kill them, because any death caused him to gain a considerable amount of health.

Blizzard specifically banned "same-faction griefing" on Kazzak because unlike Horde, you were not able to kill them before they could become a threat. The thing is, they didn't do it just to be asses, they could be a member of a group that would like to kill him, but they need you to wipe first . So in that instance, griefing the other side was done for a clear purpose that was beneficial to one side only. I'm not sure how it worked on PVE servers, since I played on a PVP server (where only Horde could be killed).

Don't mean to get into WoW talks in here, but I thought that'd be an interesting example of griefing other players in a Blizzard game .

holy crap, how do you beat the last mission on hard? i get overrun at around the 50% mark every time.

Are you fighting against air or ground?

 

[RapidSnail]

Does anyone know for the "Hurry Up Its Raid Night" achievement if you can simply use the archives to beat each level on Normal totaling under 8 hours?

 

[TridenT]

Does anyone know for the "Hurry Up Its Raid Night" achievement if you can simply use the archives to beat each level on Normal totaling under 8 hours?

Probably something to ask on SC2 blizzard forums. I doubt it though. It's probably a total time thing.

 

[hans030390]

get 1 marine to shoot it down, and have an SCV build on the other geyser.

I'm talking about someone warping 2 of them in and leaving right away at the very start of the game. All I have is my first SCVs.

 

[Pia]

I'm not sure if you're doing it on purpose given your use of quotes, but the words "harass" and "grief" can be used fairly interchangeably. Even in WoW, griefing does not necessarily mean that no one benefits from it. For example, back in the days of world bosses, players would get naked and attempt to have Lord Kazzak kill them, because any death caused him to gain a considerable amount of health.

...no. The definition of griefing is well established and has to do with motive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

While "harassment" or "harass" in the context of Starcraft is specific Starcraft lingo and denotes a collection of tactics performed to win - one example here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Muta_Harass

Blizzard specifically banned "same-faction griefing" on Kazzak because unlike Horde, you were not able to kill them before they could become a threat. The thing is, they didn't do it just to be asses, they could be a member of a group that would like to kill him, but they need you to wipe first . So in that instance, griefing the other side was done for a clear purpose that was beneficial to one side only.

If it was done for the purpose of getting to kill Kazzak first, then it was not griefing by the common definition.

Don't mean to get into WoW talks in here, but I thought that'd be an interesting example of griefing other players in a Blizzard game .

What WoW is really an example of is retarded devs deciding it's unnecessary to fix bugs and revamp their bad game design when they can instead ban all skilled and creative players. User service agreement section 9/C/iii for the win... not.

 

[bhanson]

I'm talking about someone warping 2 of them in and leaving right away at the very start of the game. All I have is my first SCVs.

That's actually pretty bad for their economy, just do an early T1 push and you'll probably win.

 

[Toonces]

I'm talking about someone warping 2 of them in and leaving right away at the very start of the game. All I have is my first SCVs.

Well, since you're not gonna be mining gas, you're going to have more minerals which can be used to pump marines (to then kill the extractors) and a few more barracks... they're going to be useful anyways down the line.

Once the gas comes up, tech labs -> marauders or factory/starport -> tanks/medivacs

 

[bhanson]

Well, since you're not gonna be mining gas, you're going to have more minerals which can be used to pump marines (to then kill the extractors) and a few more barracks... they're going to be useful anyways down the line.

Once the gas comes up, tech labs -> marauders or factory/starport -> tanks/medivacs

If they double gas steal there's no way you'll be able to support tanks/medivacs, you're basically forced into MM until mid game.

 

[Dumac]

If they double gas steal there's no way you'll be able to support tanks/medivacs, you're basically forced into MM until mid game.

This, however in no way is that a bad thing. MM rips apart all gateway protoss units, and with the protoss player having spent 150 resources on two assimilators he can't use, he'll likely be behind in his build as well. Those 150 resources could have been another gateway, or a cynbernetics core.

This tactic leads into terran making an early push against protoss with MM. If they terran player is good, this isn't actually a bad thing. However, if the protoss player is better, by forcing terran to go MM they can try to hold off an invansion until they can get colossi out. If the T player can't push into P's base before then, they are screwed.

 

[Aikouka]

I noticed in that one game, the Protoss and Terran built their unit buildings close to the enemies. Isn't this an usually risky tactic? All it seems you do is save some unit travel time, but in that game, the guy left his base completely unguarded. It would take what... a few enemy units could create complete havoc and possibly destroy the base and/or ruin the economy?

I assume most people would've walled off their base in this situation as well... right?

 

[beginner99]

For people very new it helps a lot to practice against the computer A.I. you can figure out your build order and counters at a slower pace and without losing rankings etc. There are also some good challenges, 3v1 vs medium AI was actually much harder than I expected.

I'm now doing exactly that to get to know the new and even more important changed units, but playing AI won't help much in terms of tactics vs. real players.
AI never does anything surprising and never does any harassing. AI just walks to your front door (ramp) where you usually have a pretty significant advantage especially as terran (siege tank). So it's simple just defend and expand and sooner or later you can just overrun the AI.
But then AI reacts rather well to stuff because it instantly "realizes" every attack or harass. One example is nukes on miners. AI can have 2 or more bases but it instantly removes only the targeted miners. Not even the best human player could react that quickly.

The only difference between difficutly levels seems to be how quickly and how many units the AI makes. Does the AI "cheat" on some of the difficulty levels? (eg. faster build or mining speed?)

 

[Dumac]

I noticed in that one game, the Protoss and Terran built their unit buildings close to the enemies. Isn't this an usually risky tactic? All it seems you do is save some unit travel time, but in that game, the guy left his base completely unguarded. It would take what... a few enemy units could create complete havoc and possibly destroy the base and/or ruin the economy?

I assume most people would've walled off their base in this situation as well... right?

This just means they are going for an all out early push, and they want their unit producing buildings out by your base for quick reinforcements.

Depending on how they do it, they could block your entrance, meaning you can't (with the exceptiosn of things like reapers) go harass their base.

With this you really want to defend your base until you can get counters up (almost always zealots/marines with this kind of push) then push as fast as possible.

You want to be able to destroy their army, but you don't want to give them map control for so long.

EDIT:

Yeah, int hat situation I probably would have made a 1 slot wall and defend with sentries until I get colossi up. (5/6 min mark with fast robo build)

 

[Dumac]

The only difference between difficutly levels seems to be how quickly and how many units the AI makes. Does the AI "cheat" on some of the difficulty levels? (eg. faster build or mining speed?)

IIRC, on insane the computer gets 7 minerals per mine and also has no fog of war.

Playing the AI is useful for practicing build order and macro/micro skills, but its not great for practicing scouting since you can pretty much guess what they'll do.
.

 

[HomerX]

Playing the AI is useful for practicing build order and macro/micro skills, but its not great for practicing scouting since you can pretty much guess what they'll do.

i thought the same but a few days ago i played against a hard or brutal terran AI. I expected some early Marine/Marauder rush and build up a few spine crawlers... after a few min suddenly a banshee attacked my workers -.-
so the AI probably switches their beginning strat depending on your build order.

 

[BD2003]

IIRC, on insane the computer gets 7 minerals per mine and also has no fog of war.

Playing the AI is useful for practicing build order and macro/micro skills, but its not great for practicing scouting since you can pretty much guess what they'll do.
.

No, the AI doesnt cheat in SC2 the way it did in SC1. The AI guy was very clear about it in the making of video.

The way he described it is that the AI has a queue of things it wants to do based on what it knows about you. The higher difficulty level will allow the AI to do what it wants faster. Basically higher difficulty = higher APM. But it doesnt know what youre building or when youre coming, until it actually sees it.

 

[beginner99]

IIRC, on insane the computer gets 7 minerals per mine and also has no fog of war.

Playing the AI is useful for practicing build order and macro/micro skills, but its not great for practicing scouting since you can pretty much guess what they'll do.
.

So insane "cheats" but very hard not?

Interesting. Hard is easy to beat in 1v1. But I actually failed to bet verx hard on my first an only try. But I was zerg (I always random) and I don't quite got the hang of zerg yet.

 

[JJChicken]

I've updated the member list.

 

[nanobreath]

I noticed in that one game, the Protoss and Terran built their unit buildings close to the enemies. Isn't this an usually risky tactic? All it seems you do is save some unit travel time, but in that game, the guy left his base completely unguarded. It would take what... a few enemy units could create complete havoc and possibly destroy the base and/or ruin the economy?

I assume most people would've walled off their base in this situation as well... right?

Called proxy rushing. The closer your barracks/gateways are to the enemy the faster you can send in reinforcements. No amount of wall will really stop a proxy rush, unless you are also spamming out tier one units as fast as they are. When me and my brother did proxy rushes, you typically sacrifice every other aspect of your build in order to maximize unit production. I.E. no gas, slower mineral farm etc. The best defense against a proxy is to have bunkers/cannons/spines up.

Yes it is a big risk leaving your base undefended. I've seen a few games where both sides proxy rushed and wiped each others bases out and then both sides basically restarted in the other persons base. These kinds of tactics work best against people that have never seen them and don't know how to respond.

I think you might have a different definition of griefing... although, in the WoW sense, griefing is generally frowned upon. I'm usually considering it (in SC as) using a tactic that is the equivalent of an annoying fly . Kind of like the guy that sends 2 reapers up someone's cliff into their base and tries to attack their workers.

It's not illegal by any means, but they usually do it to pester, or in my use of the term... grief the other player.

It seems most people use the term cheesing a lot different than I'm used to. I've been using that term since way back when I'd play Street Fighter II Turbo and it was used to describe a "one-move wonder" as in someone that would use one move because it was a pain in the butt to win when they just spammed it.

Harassing and griefing can kinda be used interchangeably, but understand they mean different things between sc2 and wow. In sc2, it is PvP and win at any cost. If you are in a rated game, expect anything and everything, the goal is to win. The difference from wow, is that you can easily respond in kind and defend against his attack. Now in a friendly game somebody using one of these strategies is a pretty douche move as the goal there is usually to build up armies and have fun smashing each other.

I really recommend that you play the challenge modes available under the single player menu in bnet. There is one where you have to defend against an early zergling rush and another where you have to defend against a protoss proxy rush. There is also one that helps you learn build orders and early game tactics.

I'm talking about someone warping 2 of them in and leaving right away at the very start of the game. All I have is my first SCVs.

This harassing technique is usually very counter-productive. Sure you can slow down your opponents tech run, but it is very expensive. Like most harassing, it is most effective against opponents that have never seen it before and don't know how to counter it well. You will see very little of this in higher rating matches because of the very poor cost/reward ratio.

 

[JJChicken]

PM me if you have some Zerg, Protoss, Terran tips that you would like to be placed on the front page. Looking to add build orders, and general playstyle tips. Specific strategies are okay too, but less important as the meta-game will keep changing. Appreciated!

 

[HomerX]

This harassing technique is usually very counter-productive. Sure you can slow down your opponents tech run, but it is very expensive. Like most harassing, it is most effective against opponents that have never seen it before and don't know how to counter it well. You will see very little of this in higher rating matches because of the very poor cost/reward ratio.

as a zerg player, using your scouting drone to build an extractor is one of the better things to do in the beginning.
The reason is that a zerg player pays very little minerals (25) for an extractor, because he has to sacrify the drone. But the scouting drone is usually dead meat anyway. So for only 25min you can limit/disturb the enemy bo and as long as the extractor is alive you see a small part of his base.

doing the same as protoss or terran is more expensive, especially if it is done with 2 extractors.