Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

[rivethead]

This is what worries me most. When you're a public figure, it doesn't serve you to get baited into fighting over every silly comment made about you or your project. The lack of discipline in this matter is, I feel, telling about how things are being managed at CIG. It's never good to act like you've got something to prove. If you've got the best game EVAR, and things are progressing at an acceptable rate, then you should just sit back secure in your knowledge that the naysayers are wrong.

They should have let DS roll off their shoulders....

CIG did just that....until DS started insinuating racism and attacking CR's family members personally. At that point, CIG brought in Ortwin's legal team and made a public response. I disagree with that move, but I understand why CIG did it. At some point, it becomes personal and you cannot continue to let a delusional stalker publicly attack your company and it's workers with serious allegations.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

On the flip side, are Derek Smart's games any good? Can't say I have ever played one. I saw where he was removing Line of Defense from Steam because it earned only two stars, but sadly, review bombing is a major thing today. Too many people have too little integrity.

I know at least one of his games was hammered for not having the promised content and needing unofficial patches to be playable. I remember reading about it then I checked the steam reviews during a steam (or maybe an amazon sale?). This was just before the whole SC mess broke out so the posts/reviews had to be legit on some level. I'm not going to link to the steam feedback now because I am sure they aren't as accurate because SC vs Derek Smart has become a McCoy's vs Hatfield's fight where nobody knows why they are fighting they just like to fight.
I think the game was Defense line or Line of defense or something similarly named

 

[preslove]

CIG did just that....until DS started insinuating racism and attacking CR's family members personally. At that point, CIG brought in Ortwin's legal team and made a public response. I disagree with that move, but I understand why CIG did it. At some point, it becomes personal and you cannot continue to let a delusional stalker publicly attack your company and it's workers with serious allegations.

Stop repeating lies. There is no evidence that DS was the source of the racism allegations. You are libeling the escapist reporter and her editors, who say they had multiple current and former employees as sources.

Also, the only "family member" that DS has attacked is CR's unqualified wife, who is the head of marketing, even though she is just a failed actress who lied about about her education and work history. The allegations (not "insinuations") against her were made by the employee sources of the escapist.

Putting your wife in an executive position that they're unqualified for is a very basic form of corruption that allows your household to double up on its income.

Also, the legal team demanded a retraction from escapist, or they'd sue. The escapist didn't retract (they would have if they discovered their reporter was lying), and Ortwin never followed through with the lawsuit. That demand letter was just one more unprofessional response to a critical article.

I know at least one of his games was hammered for not having the promised content and needing unofficial patches to be playable. I remember reading about it then I checked the steam reviews during a steam (or maybe an amazon sale?). This was just before the whole SC mess broke out so the posts/reviews had to be legit on some level. I'm not going to link to the steam feedback now because I am sure they aren't as accurate because SC vs Derek Smart has become a McCoy's vs Hatfield's fight where nobody knows why they are fighting they just like to fight.
I think the game was Defense line or Line of defense or something similarly named

1. SC cult members have been review bombing his games on steam. Quite the hate mob.
2. Those games were developed with Smarts own money, so who cares if they're crap? The entire point of SC criticism is they are burning through crowdfunded/presale money.
3. You can get an automatic refund very easily for a steam game. SC only started giving easy refunds for their buggy tech demo after DS spent months pressuring them.

TLDR: SC is harmful because it is consumer fraud, while Smart's games aren't harmful because they're self funded indie games that suck, distributed on a platform that gives easy refunds.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

1. SC cult members have been review bombing his games on steam. Quite the hate mob.
2. Those games were developed with Smarts own money, so who cares if they're crap? The entire point of SC criticism is they are burning through crowdfunded/presale money.
3. You can get an automatic refund very easily for a steam game. SC only started giving easy refunds for their buggy tech demo after DS spent months pressuring them.

TLDR: SC is harmful because it is consumer fraud, while Smart's games aren't harmful because they're self funded indie games that suck, distributed on a platform that gives easy refunds.

I accept this view point but I will say if you are selling something that isn't what you said it was going to be there is a problem. If I buy that game from Derek Smart and I find it not to be what I thought it would be will he offer me a refund? I honestly don't know the answer, I'm guessing he doesn't offer refunds.
I'm sure DS guys are bombing SC too so that's a moot point its also why I didn't link. The game I looked at was either at the very beginning of the SC stuff or slightly before. I doubt the reviews were that tainted at that moment.
I still stand by if you bought and aren't happy submit for a refund, if you are interested but concerned wait for release or just accept it may turn out differently than expected, if you hate the funding model don't buy it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield–McCoy_feud

 

[preslove]

I accept this view point but I will say if you are selling something that isn't what you said it was going to be there is a problem. If I buy that game from Derek Smart and I find it not to be what I thought it would be will he offer me a refund? I honestly don't know the answer, I'm guessing he doesn't offer refunds.
I'm sure DS guys are bombing SC too so that's a moot point its also why I didn't link. The game I looked at was either at the very beginning of the SC stuff or slightly before. I doubt the reviews were that tainted at that moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield–McCoy_feud

None of what you said makes the slightest bit of sense.

1. Smart's games are on steam, so anyone who knows anything about steam knows that you'll get a refund within a day for any game you don't like, let alone for one that misrepresents itself.

2. How is it even possible to review bomb a crap tech demo of a game that is only sold on that game's website? There is no aggregator for SC.

If you have to be willfully obtuse to make an argument, your argument is worthless.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

None of what you said makes the slightest bit of sense.

1. Smart's games are on steam, so anyone who knows anything about steam knows that you'll get a refund within a day for any game you don't like, let alone for one that misrepresents itself.

2. How is it even possible to review bomb a crap tech demo of a game that is only sold on that game's website? There is no aggregator for SC.

If you have to be willfully obtuse to make an argument, your argument is worthless.

You are looking to fight just for the sake of having a fight.
I'll admit I added an edit while you were posting this but I'll say it again. The risk involved with SC is well known, if you bought and aren't happy submit for a refund, if you are interested but concerned either wait for release or buy and accept the game may come out different than you expected, if you hate the funding model don't buy it.

Its irrelevant who came up with the returns idea, in DS's case did he petition steam to offer refunds or did steam just do it on their own and their TOS force returns. Did SC start offering refunds because of potential legal action, DS or just because they wanted to it doesn't matter as of right now refunds are offered.

Can you buy a DS games anywhere besides steam? Again I don't know the answer.

 

[preslove]

You are looking to fight just for the sake of having a fight.
I'll admit I added an edit while you were posting this but I'll say it again. The risk involved with SC is well known, if you bought and aren't happy submit for a refund, if you are interested but concerned either wait for release or buy and accept the game may come out different than you expected, if you hate the funding model don't buy it.

Its irrelevant who came up with the returns idea, in DS's case did he petition steam to offer refunds or did steam just do it on their own and their TOS force returns. Did SC start offering refunds because of potential legal action, DS or just because they wanted to it doesn't matter as of right now refunds are offered.

Can you buy a DS games anywhere besides steam? Again I don't know the answer.

1. Dude, you can refund any game on steam. They've always had a return policy for broken or misrepresented games. They implemented an automated return policy 2 years ago. As long as you play under a couple hours, you'll get a refund for any game you don't like. How do you not know this?

2. Some of his games are on google play and itunes, both of which have return policies. So, on all the platforms Smart sells his games, you can get a refund without any involvement on Smart's part.

3. The only reason CIG has been giving easy refunds of late is that Smart led a campaign to complain to various government agencies, who then threatened legal action. Before then, CIG employees were notoriously nasty, and it took many emails and threatening chargebacks with CC companies for them to give even a partial refund. If you didn't threaten to chargeback, they wouldn't refund you anything. And, it took a bunch of people actually doing chargebacks for the threat of one to actually give you a refund.

4. Yes, #3 matters because all of the hate mobs lying about Smart & other critics, when it took Smart's actions to force CIG into acting in an ethical manner. This proves that Smart is the ethical one, and CIG is a scummy, unethical company that only started doing the right thing after they were forced to.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

1. Dude, you can refund any game on steam. They've always had a return policy for broken or misrepresented games. They implemented an automated return policy 2 years ago. As long as you play under a couple hours, you'll get a refund for any game you don't like. How do you not know this?

2. Some of his games are on google play and itunes, both of which have return policies. So, on all the platforms Smart sells his games, you can get a refund without any involvement on Smart's part.

3. The only reason CIG has been giving easy refunds of late is that Smart led a campaign to complain to various government agencies, who then threatened legal action. Before then, CIG employees were notoriously nasty, and it took many emails and threatening chargebacks with CC companies for them to give even a partial refund. If you didn't threaten to chargeback, they wouldn't refund you anything. And, it took a bunch of people actually doing chargebacks for the threat of one to actually give you a refund.

4. Yes, #3 matters because all of the hate mobs lying about Smart & other critics, when it took Smart's actions to force CIG into acting in an ethical manner. This proves that Smart is the ethical one, and CIG is a scummy, unethical company that only started doing the right thing after they were forced to.

So in 2014 Steam offered refunds? That's news to me and I am suspicious of that statements accuracy. I'm pretty sure they started offering refunds in 2015ish.
Again the poor review I read about Derek's game was either at the very beginning of the SC controversy or slightly before.
In-regards to hate mobs just read any article that allows users to post about SC it happens to Derek and it happens to Chris its the internet, its people arguing for the sake of argument just like how I've been sucked into this. I'll say it again, if you are worried about SC development don't buy it until you are comfortable with it, if you like the idea either buy it and accept it may come out different or wait for it to be released, if you don't like the funding model don't buy it, if you've bought and want a refund ask for it.

 

[preslove]

So in 2014 Steam offered refunds? That's news to me and I am suspicious of that statements accuracy. I'm pretty sure they started offering refunds in 2015ish.
Again the poor review I read about Derek's game was either at the very beginning of the SC controversy or slightly before.
In-regards to hate mobs just read any article that allows users to post about SC it happens to Derek and it happens to Chris its the internet, its people arguing for the sake of argument just like how I've been sucked into this. I'll say it again, if you are worried about SC development don't buy it until you are comfortable with it, if you like the idea either buy it and accept it may come out different or wait for it to be released, if you don't like the funding model don't buy it, if you've bought and want a refund ask for it.

2015 is 2 years ago, give or take a few months. Before that, you could request a refund if the game was broken or misrepresented.

Again, you are refusing to see the point that it was only through Smart's actions over months before SC stopped being a nasty, scummy, unethical company with regards to refunds. So, if you're saying "Smart is terrible" and "just get a refund" at the same time, you're contradicting yourself. Smart is the reason why you can get an easy refund.

Oh, and again, Smart doesn't have to a particularly good guy for him to be right about SC. "Smart is bad" is just way to avoid addressing his criticism, as well as the independent reporting of the gaming press.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

2015 is 2 years ago, give or take a few months. Before that, you could request a refund if the game was broken or misrepresented.

Again, you are refusing to see the point that it was only through Smart's actions over months before SC stopped being a nasty, scummy, unethical company with regards to refunds. So, if you're saying "Smart is terrible" and "just get a refund" at the same time, you're contradicting yourself. Smart is the reason why you can get an easy refund.

Oh, and again, Smart doesn't have to a particularly good guy for him to be right about SC. "Smart is bad" is just way to avoid addressing his criticism, as well as the independent reporting of the gaming press.

No you misunderstand, I'm fine with DS being the reason why refunds are issued. I hate most of the faux outrage that tends to get posted. Either file a refund or accept the risk. Don't tell other people how to spend their money.

 

[preslove]

You've spent a lot of time attacking Smart, though. If you accept that Smart is the reason why SC started doing the right thing about refunds, why are you chasing the Smart red herring?

Oh, and the cult-like devotion and overspending on jpegs of the backer whales is one of the most interesting things about the SC phenomenon. Don't tell me to not mock these poor critical thinkers

 

[Fanatical Meat]

This is kinda tricky. Cause promoting a game which is in development is telling people how to spend their money(not directly as go buy a game, but indirectly with influence on possible buyer opinion). If you for example say to me, star Citizen is worth it, you can influence on my opinion should I buy the game or not.
That would be still promotion, not from CIG, but from a backer, cause backer is pleased with the game, alpha or whatever...

Difference of opinion, someone who is selling something whether its EA or released goal is to sell you the product. I just keep that in mind when shopping for stuff.
Let's not drag this out to what is appropriate customer acquisition costs or advertising budgets that will be far too tiresome. There is plenty of SC info out there to make a reasonably informed decision.

You've spent a lot of time attacking Smart, though. If you accept that Smart is the reason why SC started doing the right thing about refunds, why are you chasing the Smart red herring?

Oh, and the cult-like devotion and overspending on jpegs of the backer whales is one of the most interesting things about the SC phenomenon. Don't tell me to not mock these poor critical thinkers

No Werepossum asked a question and I provided my feedback. DS recent games are generally poorly reviewed and I'm not talking about user feedback but these are subjective things.
I do find some level of irony that DS is accusing CR of things that have been thrown at him, any discussion involving DS's suggestions of how SC should be run or changed should reflect his (Dereks) work.
As a side note I'm all for an ethics discussion about people spending thousands of dollars on games. I'm not a person to tell someone how to spend their money but another side of me says spending 15k on a virtual anything is a lot of money, so much that it could be a life changing event for someone less fortunate who lives in their community.

 

[preslove]

Difference of opinion, someone who is selling something whether its EA or released goal is to sell you the product. I just keep that in mind when shopping for stuff.
Let's not drag this out to what is appropriate customer acquisition costs or advertising budgets that will be far too tiresome. There is plenty of SC info out there to make a reasonably informed decision.



No Werepossum asked a question and I provided my feedback. DS recent games are generally poorly reviewed and I'm not talking about user feedback but these are subjective things.
I do find some level of irony that DS is accusing CR of things that have been thrown at him, any discussion involving DS's suggestions of how SC should be run or changed should reflect his (Dereks) work.
As a side note I'm all for an ethics discussion about people spending thousands of dollars on games. I'm not a person to tell someone how to spend their money but another side of me says spending 15k on a virtual anything is a lot of money, so much that it could be a life changing event for someone less fortunate who lives in their community.

Smart has never crowdfunded a game and most of his game development has been personally funded. So, there is no irony in Smart criticizing CR for burning through backer money, at all. I haven't seen smart criticize a privately funded project, ever. His hobby horse is the ethics of crowdfunding. & Smart was even a backer with a couple grand in the project before he wrote his first blog post on SC.

There have already been reports of people with large amounts of $ in ship jpegs being unable to meet rent. Also, one guy getting fired for trying to get clients to back the game. When the dust settles, there will probably be a few suicides.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Totally agree with this. For 15k in my country i could help one old granma without anybody, to live good life for 2 years. Old poor people get from 400-500 Euros minimum per months(those are poor people). So with 15k person can double that amount for 2 years and few months..

Yup I first had the thought about 18 months ago. People were discussing the extreme cost of some of the game packages and earlier that day I had a talk with my fiancee, her little sister's (not her real life sister, its a program in the US where more established people team up with less fortunate kids for work events, outings and general chatting) mothers car broke down and was beyond repair. She had to leave her job and they were doing most of their shopping at a convenience store a couple of blocks away. Problem is convenience stores aren't the best or cheapest places to buy food for a week and being limited to where you can walk to work is pretty atrocious. I thought wow a 5k package could easily get this woman a car that is moderately reliable that gets her family better food for less money, better time together and more job options. I would find that much more rewarding than some game swag.
That's all I'm going to post about this any further discussion should be in its own thread, sorry to divert.

 

[Dannar26]

Again, you are refusing to see the point that it was only through Smart's actions over months before SC stopped being a nasty, scummy, unethical company with regards to refunds. So, if you're saying "Smart is terrible" and "just get a refund" at the same time, you're contradicting yourself. Smart is the reason why you can get an easy refund.

Careful now. Someone might get wise to the fact that you're actually Derek Smart, even though that's supposedly who I am. I wonder, can we both be Derek Smart? Or maybe you got a DS virus and your account was stolen just to post pro-DS sentiment? Or maybe you're allowed an opinion since you're a "lifer?"

The rest of what you're saying rings true with me. The type of person Smart is has no impact on the development of Star Citizen. It's entirely possible for him to be a dirt bag who also happens to be on the money about this project. There is much to doubt.

I really hope this thing comes to fruition. I'm only in for $35 dollars, so I'm going to wait-and-see. Do we get SC, or will we instead see the crowd-funded enrichment of "The Roberts Friends and Family Trust?"

 

[saj0r]

No, hes been wrong in every single 'insider' news prediction hes ever made, hes just a bitter old failed borderline homeless game 'dev' who made the worse shovel-ware you can imagine.

 

[JSt0rm]

No, hes been wrong in every single 'insider' news prediction hes ever made, hes just a bitter old failed borderline homeless game 'dev' who made the worse shovel-ware you can imagine.

false.

 

[Chipopo]

Fair warning, now that r/dereksmart has caught wind of this thread, it's likely to be invaded by some of the most slack-jawed and barely literate yokels modern civ has ever produced. You are more likely to have a coherent discussion with a mashed potato than these folk. Just nod politely and they should lose interest soon enough.

 

[thejunglegod]

When you're a public figure, it doesn't serve you to get baited into fighting over every silly comment made about you or your project.

Hey, if the President-elect can do it, so can he.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Fair warning, now that r/dereksmart has caught wind of this thread, it's likely to be invaded by some of the most slack-jawed and barely literate yokels modern civ has ever produced. You are more likely to have a coherent discussion with a mashed potato than these folk. Just nod politely and they should lose interest soon enough.

Quoted for posterity

 

[saj0r]

false.

false.

 

[JSt0rm]

false.

great second post commando!

 

[saj0r]

great second post commando!

false.

 

[preslove]

No, hes been wrong in every single 'insider' news prediction hes ever made, hes just a bitter old failed borderline homeless game 'dev' who made the worse shovel-ware you can imagine.

Nothing in this post shares any resemblance to the truth.

Hey mods, this is guy just joined yesterday, right after the hate mob of a subreddit, /r/dereksmart, had a link to this thread posted to it. His only posts are a bunch of lies and trolling in this thread. I think it would do everyone, even pro sc people, good to ban trolls like this.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Nothing in this post shares any resemblance to the truth.

Hey mods, this is guy just joined yesterday, right after the hate mob of a subreddit, /r/dereksmart, had a link to this thread posted to it. His only posts are a bunch of lies and trolling in this thread. I think it would do everyone, even pro sc people, good to ban trolls like this.

Pretty sure that's a call out and got TK a 30 day vacation? I wonder how long you'll get?

Also, despite karefa-smart's best efforts, /r/dereksmart is not a hate reddit, as confirmed by Reddit staff. It's simply an archive of everything that your mail-in degree "doctor" says. If anything, you should thank those participating for archiving your dear leader's words, except as I posted before, that shows how absolutely wrong Derek has been over the many years of his trolling career (i.e. he doesn't develop games ).