Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
may I suggest the pro star citizen people have one thread and the anti star citizen people can have another thread?

We cant discuss anything without pro star citizens coming out of the wood work to defend against our opinions.
 
Feb 4, 2009
31,619
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may I suggest the pro star citizen people have one thread and the anti star citizen people can have another thread?

We cant discuss anything without pro star citizens coming out of the wood work to defend against our opinions.
I think this is a good idea, you should start it up

ps, I do love your images but I have to coach you. They are baiting.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
The jpegs is the best part of this thing. Some great photoshoppers have made some amazing things.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
748
126
may I suggest the pro star citizen people have one thread and the anti star citizen people can have another thread?

We cant discuss anything without pro star citizens coming out of the wood work to defend against our opinions.
This is probably the best idea in this thread so far.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,142
457
136
may I suggest the pro star citizen people have one thread and the anti star citizen people can have another thread?

We cant discuss anything without pro star citizens coming out of the wood work to defend against our opinions.
What would be the point? To point at SC fans and go "haha you're an idiot for loving a game?" I've said it quite a few times, I do think the drama that surrounds this game does deserve a thread as it's very interesting (at least to me) but if it devolves into name calling and pointless memes I fail to see the point. It would be like politic level discourse stupidity, only here it would be over a game.. maybe I'm missing what you're wanting though.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
I don't point and laugh. It's impossible to discuss this thing without including discussion of the people surrounding it. The moment you do that, people who don't want you to say anything will use whatever powers they have available to stifle your speech.

It's part of what makes thing thing so interesting.
 

aigomorla

Cases and Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
19,304
1,658
126
may I suggest the pro star citizen people have one thread and the anti star citizen people can have another thread?

We cant discuss anything without pro star citizens coming out of the wood work to defend against our opinions.
theres already a thread about game discussion.
And no i will not approve of a PRO StarCitzen thread as it serves no point or purpose.

If you want to talk about the dicussion of the game itself, you goto the discussion thread.
You can be all PRO star citizen you want.

If you have a problem or want to talk about the ethics of the company and game, you hash it out here in a civilized manner.

If you cant be civil, well, then your not welcome in this thread, and should get the hell out before i kick you out with infractions which stay on your record for 2 yrs.

Get it?
Good...

Now continue in a civilized manner and stop giving us mods more work then we have to in a section which pertains to games and relaxation.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
I'll keep it civil but it's the people reporting trivial things that are creating work for you.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
5,981
1,341
136
It's not trivial when you post the pictures that you do. They have little too no bearing on the topic and only serve too incite people. How does posting a picture of Gary Oldmans head on an air horn with the word "PAAAAARRPPP!" coming out of it add anything relevant or positive too the discussion?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
It's not trivial when you post the pictures that you do. They have little too no bearing on the topic and only serve too incite people. How does posting a picture of Gary Oldmans head on an air horn with the word "PAAAAARRPPP!" coming out of it add anything relevant or positive too the discussion?
its hilarious.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
5,981
1,341
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its hilarious.
While I do find the humor in it humor can be subjective based on the audience that is seeing it. This subforum is part of the tech forums and because of that we don't get the same leniencies as the social forums do.

If I was too post the same picture in the cpu forum but I replaced Gary Oldmans head with the latest Intel i7-7700k cpu and the quote "$$$$$$$$$" coming out from the chip how would that be received by the members who frequent the cpu subforum? Sure some would find it humorous and some would find it not so humorous. It would probably cause an uproar with me getting reported and then I would get a stern talking too from the mods or admins. Especially if I continued to do it over and over again.

It's no different in this sub. It's part of the tech forum and should be treated as such.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
Here's the specific quote:

Compare to what Chris has said in the past:

Somewhere between then and $120 million dollars, the cash reserve has become inadequate for completing the game.
I see that as potentially a good thing. A revenue stream other than continual fundraising increases the chance that Roberts' vision comes to fruition.

Why?

There are numerous successful crowd-funded games (Wasteland 2, Divinity Original Sin to name just two...). And we've already had plenty of failures too.

Guess what?

People keep crowd-funding games. World keeps turning.
Failure at this level would have a chilling effect never before seen. I also suspect that JSt0rm is correct about it attracting legal changes.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
462
126
I've seen posts on various forums with the same heartbreaking theme: Some guy who grew up with wing Commander & xwing who got some disease or some disabling event who ended up with terrible lives, who managed to scrounge up a couple hundred or thousand bucks to support their dream game to escape into this online world of being a spaceman. Scam artists often take advantage of the disabled, elderly & otherwise vulnerable. So there are real tragedies that happen when a scam artist makes big money on a scheme.

I don't hate the late Tammy Faye Bakker because I dislike the quality of her evangilism, I care because she scammed a bunch of old people (and their family) out of huge portions of their savings. Hopefully, Chris Roberts will be a convicted felon, like her. And, even if I were a failed pastor who criticized the nonexistent theology of the late Ms. Bakker, that wouldn't mean I wasn't correct in condemning an obvious scam artist.



No one cares that Daikatana and Duke nukem forever were troubled developments because those failures were funded by corporations that had made a bunch of money on previous successes. Chris Roberts funded this failure with the money of some rich people and some vulnerable people.

I care more about the vulnerable people than the rich ones, but it all is fraud, which is bad.

Silly me.
Um, so far the game is merely late. The hundreds of designers hired suggests that even if Roberts fails spectacularly, he will face no charges.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
5,981
1,341
136
Um, so far the game is merely late. The hundreds of designers hired suggests that even if Roberts fails spectacularly, he will face no charges.
I tend too agree with this. There has been little if any evidence that the funds raised have been used inappropriately. Now that could obviously change as time goes on. If the project comes under state or federal scrutiny pressure from the agencies involved could bring inappropriate spending too light. That has not happened though and even it does it may not prove it.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
While I do find the humor in it humor can be subjective based on the audience that is seeing it. This subforum is part of the tech forums and because of that we don't get the same leniencies as the social forums do.

If I was too post the same picture in the cpu forum but I replaced Gary Oldmans head with the latest Intel i7-7700k cpu and the quote "$$$$$$$$$" coming out from the chip how would that be received by the members who frequent the cpu subforum? Sure some would find it humorous and some would find it not so humorous. It would probably cause an uproar with me getting reported and then I would get a stern talking too from the mods or admins. Especially if I continued to do it over and over again.

It's no different in this sub. It's part of the tech forum and should be treated as such.
Thats all fine but the problem isnt pictures. The problem is being triggered by such trivial things like jpegs you dont like being posted in a place. You dont point to art and say this is the reason people are angry. You dont use the mods time to remove something like that. On *another* forum Im on if you waste the mods time on stuff like that you get hit with a temp ban. Maye 6 hours the first time maybe 3 days the second. They keep ramping it up until you learn how to be an adult and not get angry on the internet over little things.

you can see the mod is already having to deal with lots of reports. These reports have everything to do with those people not liking this thread and using anything to try and get the mods to shut it down. Funny.

I'll never waste the mods time because that shiz is annoying and I wouldnt want that to happen to me. I also dont care what other people post so I guess I'm like rare or something. I also think there are some pro level photoshops about this mess and they deserve to be seen because its enjoyable for a lot of people to see funny things on the internet,
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
I tend too agree with this. There has been little if any evidence that the funds raised have been used inappropriately. Now that could obviously change as time goes on. If the project comes under state or federal scrutiny pressure from the agencies involved could bring inappropriate spending too light. That has not happened though and even it does it may not prove it.
Fact is, people need to look closer at the situation before jumping to conclusions. Chris Roberts is just a name and a face. He didn't create CIG alone (and, in fact, I suspect he's not even majority owner). It was co-founded with the founder of one of the most highly respected and internationally recognized IP law firms in the world. I cannot imagine Ortwin would risk his firm's reputation by being associated with a company involved in misappropriating funds or undisciplined spending. Ortwin's firm is 25 years old....take a long time to build a reputation but only minutes to destroy it. It's just not logical.

But the detractors seem to ignore that fact. They attack Chris Roberts. He's a nerd and an easy target. But it's like picking on the skinny kid at school not knowing his brother is Floyd Mayweather......

This project absolutely has a chance of failure - but fraud is one of the lower risks on the list. In my opinion, boredom is the highest risk.....CIG makes technically astounding, beautiful games.....that are boring as hell. That's the biggest risk.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,142
457
136
Thats all fine but the problem isnt pictures. The problem is being triggered by such trivial things like jpegs you dont like being posted in a place. You dont point to art and say this is the reason people are angry. You dont use the mods time to remove something like that. On *another* forum Im on if you waste the mods time on stuff like that you get hit with a temp ban. Maye 6 hours the first time maybe 3 days the second. They keep ramping it up until you learn how to be an adult and not get angry on the internet over little things.

you can see the mod is already having to deal with lots of reports. These reports have everything to do with those people not liking this thread and using anything to try and get the mods to shut it down. Funny.

I'll never waste the mods time because that shiz is annoying and I wouldnt want that to happen to me. I also dont care what other people post so I guess I'm like rare or something. I also think there are some pro level photoshops about this mess and they deserve to be seen because its enjoyable for a lot of people to see funny things on the internet,
The problem is that jpegs do nothing to further the conversation at hand. If you wanted to make a funny jpeg thread like "Jesus's middle name is Hume!" for video games that'd be one thing, but to flood those here does nothing but piss off the fans of SC. You know this, and I believe it's the main reason you post them.


Fact is, people need to look closer at the situation before jumping to conclusions. Chris Roberts is just a name and a face. He didn't create CIG alone (and, in fact, I suspect he's not even majority owner). It was co-founded with the founder of one of the most highly respected and internationally recognized IP law firms in the world. I cannot imagine Ortwin would risk his firm's reputation by being associated with a company involved in misappropriating funds or undisciplined spending. Ortwin's firm is 25 years old....take a long time to build a reputation but only minutes to destroy it. It's just not logical.

But the detractors seem to ignore that fact. They attack Chris Roberts. He's a nerd and an easy target. But it's like picking on the skinny kid at school not knowing his brother is Floyd Mayweather......

This project absolutely has a chance of failure - but fraud is one of the lower risks on the list. In my opinion, boredom is the highest risk.....CIG makes technically astounding, beautiful games.....that are boring as hell. That's the biggest risk.
It's a very odd way you've put this. You're correct in that I agree with you that I don't believe that CIG or CR has misappropriated funds of gone on massive bouts of "undisciplined spending". I do think they've burnt through a good chuck of their money, but it's due to a lack of understanding on how to run a company of this size. That's the real issue with CR is that he hasn't a clue wtf he's doing. He may have a better hand on it now, and it's quite possible that the game will show up. He did however, screw up and wasted a ton of money doing it. In those Kotaku articles CR admitted there were a lot of mistakes in the beginning that caused a ton of rework. That costed them a lot of money, how much I doubt we'll ever know. There has to be a reason why they're still milking their fan base with jpegs of ships (with no release date for said ships...) yet still haven't come close to releasing a finished product.

I'm really against personal attacks upon CR. I do think you can (and should) criticize his actions. He makes himself an easy target by being not only the head of hte company but the figurehead of it. The other people involved haven't been as vocal. Doesn't mean that people should attack him and his wife (again criticize her lack of a clue wtf she's doing, but not make it personal).
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
its not the main reason I post them. I post because they are funny. If people want to be triggered because of art its not the arts problem.

And furthermore, Last time I checked videogames have more to do with art then technology. This means opinions that cant be judged in the form of ghz and tb rule the day.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,142
457
136
its not the main reason I post them. I post because they are funny. If people want to be triggered because of art its not the arts problem.

And furthermore, Last time I checked videogames have more to do with art then technology. This means opinions that cant be judged in the form of ghz and tb rule the day.
Buuuuuut this thread is about a discussion on the issues and concerns about the game of Star Citizen. This isn't a thread designed to house jpegs that you may find 'funny'. You can try to tell me it's about the 'art', but this thread was never designed to talk about the art. The closest this thread is designed to talk about art would be graphic specs and the issues around it.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,943
126
Buuuuuut this thread is about a discussion on the issues and concerns about the game of Star Citizen. This isn't a thread designed to house jpegs that you may find 'funny'. You can try to tell me it's about the 'art', but this thread was never designed to talk about the art. The closest this thread is designed to talk about art would be graphic specs and the issues around it.
We can certainly talk about the art of sc in this thread. Thats virtually all SC has. A bunch of stolen clip art and jpegs of ships.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
The problem is that jpegs do nothing to further the conversation at hand. If you wanted to make a funny jpeg thread like "Jesus's middle name is Hume!" for video games that'd be one thing, but to flood those here does nothing but piss off the fans of SC. You know this, and I believe it's the main reason you post them.




It's a very odd way you've put this. You're correct in that I agree with you that I don't believe that CIG or CR has misappropriated funds of gone on massive bouts of "undisciplined spending". I do think they've burnt through a good chuck of their money, but it's due to a lack of understanding on how to run a company of this size. That's the real issue with CR is that he hasn't a clue wtf he's doing. He may have a better hand on it now, and it's quite possible that the game will show up. He did however, screw up and wasted a ton of money doing it. In those Kotaku articles CR admitted there were a lot of mistakes in the beginning that caused a ton of rework. That costed them a lot of money, how much I doubt we'll ever know. There has to be a reason why they're still milking their fan base with jpegs of ships (with no release date for said ships...) yet still haven't come close to releasing a finished product.

I'm really against personal attacks upon CR. I do think you can (and should) criticize his actions. He makes himself an easy target by being not only the head of hte company but the figurehead of it. The other people involved haven't been as vocal. Doesn't mean that people should attack him and his wife (again criticize her lack of a clue wtf she's doing, but not make it personal).
Not sure what you find odd. I merely presented a case for why accusations of fraud are illogical. I never said CIG was efficient with their capital. Perhaps just my personal experience (I live and work in Austin - land of 1000s of start up tech companies), but I've yet to see a start up be perfect with their capital. There are always mistakes. There are always wasted dollars. That's all part of the start up process.

So the Kotaku article should surprise no one in my humble opinion. Whether or not CIG should have been more forthcoming with communication surrounding these mistakes is an entirely different discussion...

The reason for why CIG is still milking their fanbase with jpegs of ships is simple: because they can. Despite numerous warnings of the state of the project, the lack of concrete specifications for ships, etc., people still buy jpeg ships. And ask for more. And continue to do so. You literally have to acknowledge two (or three?) warnings about what you're about to spend your money on.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,142
457
136
Not sure what you find odd. I merely presented a case for why accusations of fraud are illogical. I never said CIG was efficient with their capital. Perhaps just my personal experience (I live and work in Austin - land of 1000s of start up tech companies), but I've yet to see a start up be perfect with their capital. There are always mistakes. There are always wasted dollars. That's all part of the start up process.

So the Kotaku article should surprise no one in my humble opinion. Whether or not CIG should have been more forthcoming with communication surrounding these mistakes is an entirely different discussion...

The reason for why CIG is still milking their fanbase with jpegs of ships is simple: because they can. Despite numerous warnings of the state of the project, the lack of concrete specifications for ships, etc., people still buy jpeg ships. And ask for more. And continue to do so. You literally have to acknowledge two (or three?) warnings about what you're about to spend your money on.
You're right. I, for some reason had foolishly thought that the accusations on CR misappropriating funds was put to rest. I guess because I hadn't seen it in a bit I thought we had moved on to topics that mattered.. as much as a convo about a video game can matter. I had just found it odd that you had picked two things that CR hadn't done, but I had completely thrown out what you were replying to. Not sure why I did that, I can only say you were right in what you said.

I do think that CIG should be a LOT more forthcoming about what's going on. I don't think they should give out every single choice they make, or where every single dollar is spent. However they should be providing why things are getting delayed in more detail.

As for the ships.. I don't know.. I agree they can, and if people are happy more power to them. I do think it's something that's now drawn out of need, otherwise they'd provide a better idea when the ships would be playable. I could be very well understating the effort it takes to put them in the game, but as they've said nothing on it I can only put things together in my head.. like the cash only policy of the 'new ships'. If they were just putting more content in the game, why not allow those with credit to get it?

Again though, my apologies for any feelings that I jumped upon you. It wasn't my intent, though I can't remember what I was going to say upon it. I think I was distracted with people attempting to justify trolling a group. Not that it excuses it.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
You're right. I, for some reason had foolishly thought that the accusations on CR misappropriating funds was put to rest. I guess because I hadn't seen it in a bit I thought we had moved on to topics that mattered.. as much as a convo about a video game can matter. I had just found it odd that you had picked two things that CR hadn't done, but I had completely thrown out what you were replying to. Not sure why I did that, I can only say you were right in what you said.

I do think that CIG should be a LOT more forthcoming about what's going on. I don't think they should give out every single choice they make, or where every single dollar is spent. However they should be providing why things are getting delayed in more detail.

As for the ships.. I don't know.. I agree they can, and if people are happy more power to them. I do think it's something that's now drawn out of need, otherwise they'd provide a better idea when the ships would be playable. I could be very well understating the effort it takes to put them in the game, but as they've said nothing on it I can only put things together in my head.. like the cash only policy of the 'new ships'. If they were just putting more content in the game, why not allow those with credit to get it?

Again though, my apologies for any feelings that I jumped upon you. It wasn't my intent, though I can't remember what I was going to say upon it. I think I was distracted with people attempting to justify trolling a group. Not that it excuses it.
Oh....I definitely didn't take it as you jumping on me. No apology necessary!

Regarding the cash only policy on new ships......I don't like it. I don't like CIG's reversal of previous statements about "the earlier you buy a ship, the best price you'll get". When they sold the hornet last fall at a lower (cash) price, I was pretty annoyed. I don't own a Hornet, but I'm a "say what you mean and mean what you say" type of guy. And they had clearly communicated that they wouldn't do what they did do.

The reasoning behind this is concerning to me. Why do they need that incentive to raise additional cash funds? To me there is only one logical answer: their cash expenditures are exceeding their expectations and they're burning through capital faster than they thought. That's not necessarily the end of the world and we'll still likely get a product but it certainly isn't a "good" thing.
 

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