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Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
I didn't get a refund personally because it $30 and I don't give a blank. Anyone who has spent more then $80 on this abortion needs to get thier money out while they still can.
I'm out like $275 I think? Oh noes! $/hr, already have made out like a bandit.

Think I'll buy a space bike just for the Manzes eye twitch :D
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
Just get a refund like JStOrm sad to you. If anyday....star citizen becomes reality, you can always buy all stuff back...
The something awful were full of star citizen fans through 2015. It changed when it became clear that it was a scam in 2015. Pretty much mirrors my journey from fan to skeptic...


Common sense (using only disposable money) and frequent, in depth developer updates showing progress don't have me looking for a refund. I funded Chris and David because this genre was dead and the Waaaahlord certainly wasn't ever going to fix that. But I appreciate your concern for my money, Comrade.

And sorry, the SA playground attached itself to the Smart ship wreck, you don't get a free pass on distancing yourselves from that special snowflake so easily :D
You hate Smart so much because you need a defense mechanism to keep from reckoning how much of your "disposable income" you've given an incompetent scam artist.

You should see Smart's wife. I hear she's a good psychiatrist.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
I'm out like $275 I think? Oh noes! $/hr, already have made out like a bandit.

Think I'll buy a space bike just for the Manzes eye twitch :D
Do what you want but when the whole thing falls apart don't cry about ds ruining your space reality. It was all croberts and his total lack of ability that put you there.
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
Who is distancing themselves? I said if you don't want to listen to him then don't. You seem to think smart doesn't know what he is talking about but amazingly this thing is falling apart pretty much how he said it would.
Yep, exactly like he said. Still waiting on the ELE / 2 weeks / 90 days tops! Mass walkouts!!!!

PSA/ good deed for the day: If anyone besides us besties were to actually read this thread for some reason, if you're interested in the Smart Track Record(TM): https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart

:)
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
26
91
The something awful were full of star citizen fans through 2015. It changed when it became clear that it was a scam in 2015. Pretty much mirrors my journey from fan to skeptic...




You hate Smart so much because you need a defense mechanism to keep from reckoning how much of your "disposable income" you've given an incompetent scam artist.

You should see Smart's wife. I hear she's a good psychiatrist.
No, beer and SA in general are still butt hurt over being told in no uncertain terms that SA would not be directing development or trolling the final game.

Incompetent scam artist? I mean, you gotta pick one. Is it a scam? If so, it's not doing so bad at $150+. Certainly not incompetent. Unless you mean the worldwide studios, active open development, frequent in depth weekly updates, and a great development team that are actually paid (unlike a certain degree mill wannabe who scams contractors)? But that would suggest it's not a scam lol.

Also, sticks and stones pres baby, don't get too riled up now. No one hates the Smart, pity would be the closest emotion.

It's been fun guys, talk with you next ELE lol!
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
No, beer and SA in general are still butt hurt over being told in no uncertain terms that SA would not be directing development or trolling the final game.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on a forum lol

Oh, and when is the game coming out? You know, the one that was supposed to be released years ago?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
http://archive.is/KBjfR#selection-1345.1-1361.204

So, the data I have available for comparison is all from private companies, meaning I can’t divulge names and details due to SEC and FINRA regulations. Public companies would just issue an unsecured (no collateral) bond and be done with it. Collateralized loans are more common and help a company obtain a lower interest rate than an unsecured line of credit would. The loan agreements I have all state LIBOR/US Prime Rate plus 0.5% to 1.0%.

Last year, CIG was owed a tax credit of £3,319,220. 2015 was £3,115,774, so I’ll just average it to about £3,200,000 for simplicity. Now, CIG could be sending this over from the US, but the exchange rate over the past year has been all over the place, to the tune of .75 to .82 GBP per USD converted. Note that this conversion rate means the lower ratio is, the weaker the Dollar is to the Pound. Rather than risk losing money to a volatile conversion, F42 opted to take the advance on their tax credit and minimize the loss.

Let’s assume they did it at Friday’s (6/23) conversion rate (about 0.79). They could move $4,050,633, which would convert down to £3,200,000 for an accounting loss of $850,633. Alternatively, they could take a collateralized loan. This is a short-term loan on the tax credit they are due at the end of the year, so I’m going to assume the bank used the 1-year LIBOR rate to give them time to do their taxes and actually receive the credit to pay it back.

1 year GBP LIBOR as of close 6/23 was .667%, so using the riskiest range I found on commercial collateral loans, I’d say their loan would be 1.667% under this assumption. For fun, let’s go even higher and say this loan is at 2%. So, a loan of £3,200,000 at 2% means they are paying £64,000 of interest, or $81,013

So there you have it. By getting the tax credit loan advance in Britain instead of sending money from the US, they are saving ($850,633-$81,013) = $769,620. Remember, this is only an assumption based on available numbers, so they won’t be exact. They should be somewhere in the ballpark, though.

Edit: Grammar, currency symbols, and disclaimers.

Edit 2: I finally read the public loan doc, and they are getting a base rate of 0.25%, so their interest cost is actually going to be around $10,000, if that, so they are potentially saving over $800,000.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
The "base rate" of .25% interest is what the bank of England charges banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bank_rate. It's the "base" rate and the bank lending the money to others adds their own interest on top of that. The actual interest rate that Roberts' crew is paying has not been released.

Whoever (the archive link won't load) wrote that drivel has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

When is the release date for this "game?"
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
lol .25% is what the tru believers think. Somehow cig found a infinite money supply? Borrow at .25 and put in the savings for .5? Does that pass the smell test? Or is it just your confirmation bias?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
The "base rate" of .25% interest is what the bank of England charges banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bank_rate. It's the "base" rate and the bank lending the money to others adds their own interest on top of that. The actual interest rate that Roberts' crew is paying has not been released.

Whoever (the archive link won't load) wrote that drivel has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

When is the release date for this "game?"
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe you actually read the drivel since the drivel actually mentions the additional interest charged above the base rate. It's estimated based on norms, something I've seen personally. I'm literally a partial heir to the $500m estate of a family member who uses loans ALL THE TIME to buy stuff because he simply doesn't want to mess with the cash he has tied up in securities. Boat? Loan. Vacation home? Loan. He gets everything at a fraction above the base rate.

Even Zuck mortgaged his home because they gave him a fraction above the base and it was cheaper than using cash. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2012/0717/Zuckerberg-s-1-percent-mortgage-Why-does-a-billionaire-need-a-loan

I really don't think you have much experience with big money, sorry.




You have been told to stay out of this thread, multiple times.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
lol .25% is what the tru believers think. Somehow cig found a infinite money supply? Borrow at .25 and put in the savings for .5? Does that pass the smell test? Or is it just your confirmation bias?
Literally, no one who knows the slightest sliver of anything about banks believes that you can get a .25% bank loan, even if it's a tax credit "advance." The bank would be better off just buying t-bills...
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
Please don't ban TechBoy, his lies are fun. I think his delusions add to this thread.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe you actually read the drivel since the drivel actually mentions the additional interest charged above the base rate. It's estimated based on norms, something I've seen personally. I'm literally a partial heir to the $500m estate of a family member who uses loans ALL THE TIME to buy stuff because he simply doesn't want to mess with the cash he has tied up in securities. Boat? Loan. Vacation home? Loan. He gets everything at a fraction above the base rate.

Even Zuck mortgaged his home because they gave him a fraction above the base and it was cheaper than using cash. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2012/0717/Zuckerberg-s-1-percent-mortgage-Why-does-a-billionaire-need-a-loan

I really don't think you have much experience with big money, sorry.




You have been told to stay out of this thread, multiple times.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
He specifically uses .25% in the bolded part, friend...
http://imgur.com/a/dvoxF

edit: Is hotlinking disabled for imgur? What am I doing wrong?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
I know it's a stupid question, but I don't have a clue so here it is. Can developer go to jail if he doesn't delivere what he promised?
maybe. Depending on how much of the money he has funneled out of the company. But if he can show a good faith effort to actually make a game then he is probably free as just widely incompetent.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,578
216
106
The person who wrote all that about the conversion rate etc., also failed in the assumption of savings. The conversion rate of dollars to pounds isn't the basis of the savings, (i.e. 4million dollars vs 3.2million pounds, it is the same amount of money that day on the exchange). You don't save $800,000 taking a loan in pounds (as the loan would be 4 million dollars if it was in dollars or 3.2 million pounds if in pounds). You only save the conversion fees, which is usually an adder to the conversion rate or sometimes a fixed fee.

You might and probably do save money elsewhere. Most countries have taxes/penalties on importing money from overseas, which could be significant (it is the reason Apple is sitting on billions in cash because if they bring it back home to spend it, they will have to pay 30-45% in taxes on it). So if they are getting any kind of good rate, they would probably be saving money. This would really need to be looked at by an international tax accountant (which it most likely was), who would be able to say that "hey if we do this, we can save XXX amount of money"....
 
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preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
CIG is under Eu law?
Star Citizen has/had over a dozen different corporate entities based in Germany, the UK, Texas, and California. They've "sold" fake game assets in many different countries. This means they're under the jurisdiction of German, UK, US, Texas, and California laws as corporate entities, as well as consumer laws in all the different countries whose citizens they've sold things to.

I know it's a stupid question, but I don't have a clue so here it is. Can developer go to jail if he doesn't delivere what he promised?
No, or Derek Smart would be a felon, haha.

But bank fraud and tax evasion are illegal. I'm not saying that roberts and ortwin have done so, but creating 12 different shell companies for one project like this is the type of thing that people who commit bank fraud & tax evasion do to cover their tracks...



The person who wrote all that about the conversion rate etc., also failed in the assumption of savings. The conversion rate of dollars to pounds isn't the basis of the savings, (i.e. 4million dollars vs 3.2million pounds, it is the same amount of money that day on the exchange). You don't save $800,000 taking a loan in pounds (as the loan would be 4 million dollars if it was in dollars or 3.2 million pounds if in pounds). You only save the conversion fees, which is usually an adder to the conversion rate or sometimes a fixed fee.

You might and probably do save money elsewhere. Most countries have taxes/penalties on importing money from overseas, which could be significant (it is the reason Apple is sitting on billions in cash because if they bring it back home to spend it, they will have to pay 30-45% in taxes on it). So if they are getting any kind of good rate, they would probably be saving money. This would really need to be looked at by an international tax accountant (which it most likely was), who would be able to say that "hey if we do this, we can save XXX amount of money"....
If this were the case, though, then Ortwin would have said so in his statement on Sunday. But, nope, he claimed it was about UK tax credits...
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
this whole thing is a doctorate study into confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy.
 
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Stg-Flame

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2007
2,974
243
106
How do you spend $30 a week on castle crashers? There are like 2 $1 DLC's for
She buys those gem packs or whatever the hell they are to speed up progression. I used to work with people who would dump hundreds into the mobile games without thinking twice about it and it was infuriating.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
She buys those gem packs or whatever the hell they are to speed up progression. I used to work with people who would dump hundreds into the mobile games without thinking twice about it and it was infuriating.
She has a lot in common with this guy...

 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Roberts got sued out of hollywood and was a used car salesman before he scammed you and your cult friends out of a lot of money. Derek Smart is semi retired and his wife is psychiatrist who owns a successful mental health practice in Florida. If you know anything about medicine, you know that psychiatrists who have successful practices are very very rich.

Derek has no reason to lie, whereas Roberts' financial livelihood depends on keeping the lies going.
I have no clue which one (if either) is telling the truth here, but ego and jealousy are enormous (and common) reasons to lie.

I don't really have a dog in this fight - it's a game I might buy if it's good - but can anyone name any video game which was this long in development and didn't stink?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
I have no clue which one (if either) is telling the truth here, but ego and jealousy are enormous (and common) reasons to lie.

I don't really have a dog in this fight - it's a game I might buy if it's good - but can anyone name any video game which was this long in development and didn't stink?
oh its true. He hired Kevin Costner for a film and then lost funding last minute. So kevin was out the money and whatever money from the movie he would of done. He won a settlement against the crob but that was also the last time saint croberts was allowed to work in hollywood. If you look at his movies as well they lost money for the most part. And the final one filmed but didnt finish - Thats VERY BAD as you cant recoup any of your loses from making the film.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,794
825
126
I have no clue which one (if either) is telling the truth here, but ego and jealousy are enormous (and common) reasons to lie.

I don't really have a dog in this fight - it's a game I might buy if it's good - but can anyone name any video game which was this long in development and didn't stink?
Well....Half Life was in development for over 5 years.....but I don't think they had people give them over $100million in free money either.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,102
400
136
Well....Half Life was in development for over 5 years.....but I don't think they had people give them over $100million in free money either.
I wouldn't call it "free". Oddly I've noticed a split in the people that have given (in some cases continue to) money. The group that is playing the Alpha and already feels like they've gotten their moneys worth, and the other group that's going "Where's the game". In the former's case, they've already gotten what they paid for. Which is awesome for them. The latter group is the one they need to really worry about. If they end up putting nothing out, it'll be those that come after them. Either way, it's not free.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,102
400
136
Please don't ban TechBoy, his lies are fun. I think his delusions add to this thread.
Not sure everything he says is lies or delusions. I do appreciate his counter point to a lot of what's talked about as I detest echo chambers and honestly am not sure of the whole picture without the pro point of view. Having said that, I'd rather him not post so much in this thread as him and JSt0rm do have a bad habit of insulting each other. I'd hate to see this thread locked because of it.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,761
61
91
She buys those gem packs or whatever the hell they are to speed up progression. I used to work with people who would dump hundreds into the mobile games without thinking twice about it and it was infuriating.
Castle crashers the beat em up? I beat it on steam and don't remember any gem packs. Maybe, you're thinking of a different game?

oh its true. He hired Kevin Costner for a film and then lost funding last minute. So kevin was out the money and whatever money from the movie he would of done. He won a settlement against the crob but that was also the last time saint croberts was allowed to work in hollywood. If you look at his movies as well they lost money for the most part. And the final one filmed but didnt finish - Thats VERY BAD as you cant recoup any of your loses from making the film.
The issue was that Kevin Costner was attached to the CRoberts movie, but when the funding fell through Roberts didn't tell Costner. So, Costner turned down other movie offers because he was scheduled for Roberts' now defunct project. Kostner is A list and is represented by the biggest talent agency in Hollywood, and he sued Roberts. Roberts settled, but was then blacklisted because no stars (or their agents) can trust him to not screw them over.

I have no clue which one (if either) is telling the truth here, but ego and jealousy are enormous (and common) reasons to lie.

I don't really have a dog in this fight - it's a game I might buy if it's good - but can anyone name any video game which was this long in development and didn't stink?
Basic critical thinking skills, cursory knowledge of the project, and a light understanding of project development should tell you that Roberts is incompetent. Only an idiot would spend *millions of dollars* on motion capture *before the game engine is finished.*
 

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