Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
Personally, I've been through too many MMOs that promise the moon and then drastically under-deliver. This one has some of the same trademarks: fanatical support, tons of viral marketing/plants, fancy production videos, cash-grab schemes related to preordering, etc.

I'm not saying that's what is going on with this game, but you can certainly understand why a lot of people are hesitant. We've been fooled before.

I hope it's awesome, and when it's finished and available and well reviewed I'll be first in line to pony up.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I can see why people are wary of this sort of development model, its really not been used with games so far. Its also had quite a few failures on Kickstarter that didn't deliver so there is a reason to be concerned.

The software industry changed quite a lot in the last decade with web software. Websites don't have any need for version numbers and most companies running websites moved to continuous delivery. That typically means they update changes to the site on a very regular basis, as much as every hour or faster and the change never comes with any update documentation or big version number change. New features just sort of appear. Continuous delivery matches the development really works at its core, we developers make small pieces and include them into the product on a daily basis and in the end the accumulation of these changes makes a final product. But on websites we don't need to make the final product every 12 months, we can release it whenever we like.

A number of companies have pushed the concept to client software as well. Chrome is a classic example as no one ever knows what version they on, the software auto updates in the background and usually you don't even know its happened, you just start it the next day and its changed. Occasionally you get a prompt to restart and that is about it. Well games can be done that way as well, and a number of games have been getting developed in that way in the last few years (project cars, Minecraft). They aren't super agile, like daily or hourly but weekly or biweekly is quite common. The main point is they don't wait until they have the game finished, they release what they have and smaller and bigger features roll out when ready.

What is interesting is the only companies able to do this are the ones funded by the customers and not by the publishers. Big publishers see this early access with continuous feedback from the customers as a risk to the schedule so they aren't interested. Yet its interesting that most of the companies doing crowd funding are trying this model, but not all. The guys making the syndicate remake for example have various insights into how they are getting certain things done but its reasonably irregular. When compared to the constant feedback cycle of star citizen its positively archaic.

Star citizen is still early, they are not at the Minimal viable product stage yet. What that means is there isn't a game or thing to play. They developed the hangar module, that worked and since they have been updating it continuously. Once the dogfight module is out they will do the same thing, it will start its cycle of feedback. You need a minimal product to be able to get feedback otherwise the discussions are never ending. Its not 100% in the spirit of agile development but its about as good as a game like Star citizen can get. They fill the gap with questions, comments, design discussion videos etc that show you their thinking so you can feedback on what they said.

None of this means they will deliver a game, but the contents information and decisions does build confidence that they know what they are doing. Agile requires confidence in the team and its built by continuous delivery of product, and in this case by talking about the building of their MVP.

I don't like the way the funding has been partially used to produce an early Pay 2 win scheme, I am still worried the very expensive ships will give others an early advantage. But I can't fault the way they are going about development so far, its not dissimilar to what I recommend all my clients do.

You should watch the latest 10-for-the-Chairman, Chris Roberts answered a question about whether someone can fly an Idris solo, and it appears that he's very hesitant on allowing that capability, or even allowing NPC crewmates for an Idris. He said for a destroyer or larger you will definitely require at least several human players.

I've yet to see evidence of this Pay 2 Win scheme you keep mentioning. You're assuming that some ship types will simply dominate at everything, and that other players won't be able to compete unless they fork over hard cash. Given that every ship is going to be available in in-game currency and Chris Roberts has repeatably stated his intentions to avoid "pay-to-win", and outline game mechanics toward that end, I don't see where you're getting your perspective other than blind suspicion.

Getting a head-start over other players is not pay-to-win. Just because I bought a Hornet Ghost with pledge money doesn't mean I have insta-wins over a new player who bought the game at launch and starts with an Aurora. It might mean that said player should not engage Hornets until he/she has bought a better ship, but from all the information we have that will be readily doable without hard cash.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Personally, I've been through too many MMOs that promise the moon and then drastically under-deliver. This one has some of the same trademarks: fanatical support, tons of viral marketing/plants, fancy production videos, cash-grab schemes related to preordering, etc.

I'm not saying that's what is going on with this game, but you can certainly understand why a lot of people are hesitant. We've been fooled before.

I hope it's awesome, and when it's finished and available and well reviewed I'll be first in line to pony up.

And which one of those MMOs was crowd-funded? If Chris Roberts blows this then his reputation will be shattered, and he will never be able to make a game in this manner again. It's not like a big business where so long as the game sells they don't particularly care about reputation.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,406
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Personally, I've been through too many MMOs that promise the moon and then drastically under-deliver. This one has some of the same trademarks: fanatical support, tons of viral marketing/plants, fancy production videos, cash-grab schemes related to preordering, etc.

I'm not saying that's what is going on with this game, but you can certainly understand why a lot of people are hesitant. We've been fooled before.

I hope it's awesome, and when it's finished and available and well reviewed I'll be first in line to pony up.

I understand I hope I am not a sucker for backing it. I agree with everything you said yet I violated my promise not to get suckered again by waiting for open beta or some kind of demo.
 
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BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
You should watch the latest 10-for-the-Chairman, Chris Roberts answered a question about whether someone can fly an Idris solo, and it appears that he's very hesitant on allowing that capability, or even allowing NPC crewmates for an Idris. He said for a destroyer or larger you will definitely require at least several human players.

I've yet to see evidence of this Pay 2 Win scheme you keep mentioning. You're assuming that some ship types will simply dominate at everything, and that other players won't be able to compete unless they fork over hard cash. Given that every ship is going to be available in in-game currency and Chris Roberts has repeatably stated his intentions to avoid "pay-to-win", and outline game mechanics toward that end, I don't see where you're getting your perspective other than blind suspicion.

Getting a head-start over other players is not pay-to-win. Just because I bought a Hornet Ghost with pledge money doesn't mean I have insta-wins over a new player who bought the game at launch and starts with an Aurora. It might mean that said player should not engage Hornets until he/she has bought a better ship, but from all the information we have that will be readily doable without hard cash.

I have been watching them. My concern is early comments from Chris about such ships being some 40-60 hours into the game. That is combined with the heavy amount of time needed to upgrade equipment on the ships that will mean early game a lot of players will be starting with a 60 hour deficit. Considering the competitive nature of the game that will have them absolutely loosing in PvP. Over time it ought to sort itself out to an extent as that advantage reduces but a lot of people never play that far into a game so I think there is a real concern that this is a sizeable advantage and one they will forever fade away. Its not quite pay 2 win because its possible to get it by playing, but just like planetside 2 the time investment for capabilities is very high making it necessary to pay money to compete. Strictly not P2W but in practice the cost of getting it otherwise is so high in time that ends up being P2W in practice. Its a concern that hasn't yet been alleviated by anything Chris has said, its actually built based on the more they have said on the issue, they regularly talk about giving back advantages to the guys who have supported them more, far more often than they talk about balancing those with people who have supported them less or not at all yet. It remains my main concern especially considering the price of ships are $100+.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I have been watching them. My concern is early comments from Chris about such ships being some 40-60 hours into the game. That is combined with the heavy amount of time needed to upgrade equipment on the ships that will mean early game a lot of players will be starting with a 60 hour deficit. Considering the competitive nature of the game that will have them absolutely loosing in PvP. Over time it ought to sort itself out to an extent as that advantage reduces but a lot of people never play that far into a game so I think there is a real concern that this is a sizeable advantage and one they will forever fade away. Its not quite pay 2 win because its possible to get it by playing, but just like planetside 2 the time investment for capabilities is very high making it necessary to pay money to compete. Strictly not P2W but in practice the cost of getting it otherwise is so high in time that ends up being P2W in practice. Its a concern that hasn't yet been alleviated by anything Chris has said, its actually built based on the more they have said on the issue, they regularly talk about giving back advantages to the guys who have supported them more, far more often than they talk about balancing those with people who have supported them less or not at all yet. It remains my main concern especially considering the price of ships are $100+.

Huh? How is 40-60 hours of gameplay to get a small capital ship a "very high" ceiling? Even assuming 1 hour per week that's just over a year of gameplay at most, and I imagine most people will play far more often.

Also Planetside 2 requires a LOT more than 40-60 hours of gameplay to get top gear without paying, it's not a valid comparison given the information Chris has given us.

You can't have it both ways. A completely flat universe where everyone can get a capital ship after 10 hours is a boring universe. There should be decisive advantages for those willing to put in the time, and likewise there should be engaging roles for new players who don't have said experience; and there are.

New players can engage in exploration, small-scale trade, or after 10-20 hours they can get a hornet or 235A or Avenger or whatever and start PvP or increase their effectiveness in other ways, there are TONS of possibilities. There is no "winning" in Star Citizen, ergo you can't "pay to win".

A prime example is my Organization, the Systems United Navy. We have set classes of ships required for fighter wings, reconnaissance, command and control, etc. We also have a logistics wing as well as reservists. Even the most basic Aurora can serve in logistics, or so goes the plan.

So long as there's equal opportunity, there can't be "pay to win". Your only complaint so far is that it takes 40-60 hours to get a capital ship. I can't fathom how you can consider that a logically valid complaint. This is a persistent, detailed universe, not a multiplayer FPS; and we're Star Citizens, not Star Emperors. I'm sorry if you don't have the time and you're hurt that you won't get an Idris, but that doesn't make the complaint valid given the game's objectives. People who don't have the time simply won't be able to play the entire game, as it should be.
 
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Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
Huh? How is 40-60 hours of gameplay to get a small capital ship a "very high" ceiling? Even assuming 1 hour per week that's just over a year of gameplay at most, and I imagine most people will play far more often.

Also Planetside 2 requires a LOT more than 40-60 hours of gameplay to get top gear without paying, it's not a valid comparison given the information Chris has given us.

You can't have it both ways. A completely flat universe where everyone can get a capital ship after 10 hours is a boring universe. There should be decisive advantages for those willing to put in the time, and likewise there should be engaging roles for new players who don't have said experience; and there are.

New players can engage in exploration, small-scale trade, or after 10-20 hours they can get a hornet or 235A or Avenger or whatever and start PvP or increase their effectiveness in other ways, there are TONS of possibilities. There is no "winning" in Star Citizen, ergo you can't "pay to win".

A prime example is my Organization, the Systems United Navy. We have set classes of ships required for fighter wings, reconnaissance, command and control, etc. We also have a logistics wing as well as reservists. Even the most basic Aurora can serve in logistics, or so goes the plan.

So long as there's equal opportunity, there can't be "pay to win". Your only complaint so far is that it takes 40-60 hours to get a capital ship. I can't fathom how you can consider that a logically valid complaint. This is a persistent, detailed universe, not a multiplayer FPS; and we're Star Citizens, not Star Emperors. I'm sorry if you don't have the time and you're hurt that you won't get an Idris, but that doesn't make the complaint valid given the game's objectives. People who don't have the time simply won't be able to play the entire game, as it should be.

Are you serious? "Pay to Advantage" is exactly the same thing as "Pay to Win" and let's be honest, they're selling advantage. For extremely high prices.

It's conceivable and probably expected that those players who contributed large $ amounts will be the first ones to capture/control valuable resources, farm the best mobs (or whatever) and establish themselves and their guilds as the most powerful in the game world. Because they spent the most up front. That's textbook pay to win.

I understand the game wouldn't even exist without the support of these players, but I'm not sure a game built on an unfair starting position is one I want to play regardless.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Are you serious? "Pay to Advantage" is exactly the same thing as "Pay to Win" and let's be honest, they're selling advantage. For extremely high prices.

It's conceivable and probably expected that those players who contributed large $ amounts will be the first ones to capture/control valuable resources, farm the best mobs (or whatever) and establish themselves and their guilds as the most powerful in the game world. Because they spent the most up front. That's textbook pay to win.

I understand the game wouldn't even exist without the support of these players, but I'm not sure a game built on an unfair starting position is one I want to play regardless.

No, it's not. Say this game came out in the normal fashion, and everyone started off with a clean slate. Then 2 years later some new players show up. You're telling me those new players should be on equal footing with the people who have been playing the game for 2 years? Because that's what you're suggesting.

What matters is: Does a new player have the potential to be able to play the game to its fullest, despite the presence of veteran players with superior resources, without paying hard cash and without an unreasonable time investment? The answer, from what we know, is yes to all of the above.

Honestly you guys just sound butthurt that people who put more into the game are going to get more out of it faster. Your entire argument boils down to "It's not fair!!!" If you want a "fair" game, I suggest you look at games other than persistent-world MMOs. I don't have $1000 around to buy an idris, or even the $110 for a freelancer right now. You don't hear me complaining about people who do; because I understand that I could acquire one or both with reasonable hours of gameplay if I so desire; and in the meantime there will be plenty for my Aurora LN and Hornet Ghost to do, just as there will be plenty for basic Auroras to do.

Even if everyone had the same starting capabilities organizations would dominate due to numbers and coordination alone. The game was never intended to be and is never going to be "fair" in terms of resources, only in terms of opportunity; and that was obvious from the day one pledge packages. Get over it.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,406
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No, it's not. Say this game came out in the normal fashion, and everyone started off with a clean slate. Then 2 years later some new players show up. You're telling me those new players should be on equal footing with the people who have been playing the game for 2 years? Because that's what you're suggesting.

What matters is: Does a new player have the potential to be able to play the game to its fullest, despite the presence of veteran players with superior resources, without paying hard cash and without an unreasonable time investment? The answer, from what we know, is yes to all of the above.

Honestly you guys just sound butthurt that people who put more into the game are going to get more out of it faster. Your entire argument boils down to "It's not fair!!!" If you want a "fair" game, I suggest you look at games other than persistent-world MMOs. I don't have $1000 around to buy an idris, or even the $110 for a freelancer right now. You don't hear me complaining about people who do; because I understand that I could acquire one or both with reasonable hours of gameplay if I so desire; and in the meantime there will be plenty for my Aurora LN and Hornet Ghost to do, just as there will be plenty for basic Auroras to do.

Even if everyone had the same starting capabilities organizations would dominate due to numbers and coordination alone. The game was never intended to be and is never going to be "fair" in terms of resources, only in terms of opportunity; and that was obvious from the day one pledge packages. Get over it.

I'd simply bet that 1 year down the road the will be ship short cuts or a deluxe version that has some kind of ship upgrade built in and two years down the road will have the Ultimate edition that includes even more or maybe the ships will be real inexpensive in the cash shop who knows....
 

Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
No, it's not. Say this game came out in the normal fashion, and everyone started off with a clean slate. Then 2 years later some new players show up. You're telling me those new players should be on equal footing with the people who have been playing the game for 2 years? Because that's what you're suggesting.

What matters is: Does a new player have the potential to be able to play the game to its fullest, despite the presence of veteran players with superior resources, without paying hard cash and without an unreasonable time investment? The answer, from what we know, is yes to all of the above.

Honestly you guys just sound butthurt that people who put more into the game are going to get more out of it faster. Your entire argument boils down to "It's not fair!!!" If you want a "fair" game, I suggest you look at games other than persistent-world MMOs. I don't have $1000 around to buy an idris, or even the $110 for a freelancer right now. You don't hear me complaining about people who do; because I understand that I could acquire one or both with reasonable hours of gameplay if I so desire; and in the meantime there will be plenty for my Aurora LN and Hornet Ghost to do, just as there will be plenty for basic Auroras to do.

Even if everyone had the same starting capabilities organizations would dominate due to numbers and coordination alone. The game was never intended to be and is never going to be "fair" in terms of resources, only in terms of opportunity; and that was obvious from the day one pledge packages. Get over it.

You sound pretty passionate about it and I don't really want to get into an argument. I hope the game is awesome and all of the backers get their money's worth.

But selling superior equipment for cash is the definition of a pay-to-win model. I don't see how that can be disputed. And people have already spent hundreds, even thousands of dollars to buy an advantage in a game that doesn't yet exist. That strikes me as bizarre and risky, and it's a model that I don't want to become the new standard for MMO development.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
You sound pretty passionate about it and I don't really want to get into an argument. I hope the game is awesome and all of the backers get their money's worth.

But selling superior equipment for cash is the definition of a pay-to-win model. I don't see how that can be disputed. And people have already spent hundreds, even thousands of dollars to buy an advantage in a game that doesn't yet exist. That strikes me as bizarre and risky, and it's a model that I don't want to become the new standard for MMO development.

Maybe I've spent too much time on the RSI forums. So much butthurt flying around there I'm starting to assume it. :p

A few months ago when it started becoming clear that owning an Idris would cost more in insurance, would likely require at least an NPC crew and wouldn't be an automatic "I win" button over ships that could simply run away (or NPC police in the UEE safe zones), one Idris owner made a thread basically bitching about how he'd been screwed by the devs on his "investment". Seems to be the other side of the coin to your argument. The few who thought they were actually "paying to win" are now bitching about how they're not being given what they think they payed for.

I just don't see how it's pay-to-win if those "paying to win" are realistically capable of "losing" to players who didn't. That's assuming you can even "win" or "lose" in Star Citizen. This isn't Eve, there is no indication I'm aware of that players or organizations with a head start in equipment will dominate the game. There will be no domination of resources because NPCs will be running the show far more than players; in fact territorial control in the traditional sense isn't even possible in UEE space due to the pvp/pve preferences. Hard to blockade a system with NPCs. I think the odds of creating an "elite caste of original backers that dominate the galaxy" are extremely low and not what Chris Roberts envisions.

Only time will tell, but IMO giving backers a slight head start is a small price to pay for the benefits of crowd funding in this manner.
 
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imaheadcase

Diamond Member
May 9, 2005
3,850
7
76
Pay to win is something that gives a clear advantage in a game. Nothing, nadda, that has been shown or sold is something that is part of that.

Everything in the game you can get that people are buying, even if its something cosmetic that is not in the game, it does not effect the game at all.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Pay to win is something that gives a clear advantage in a game. Nothing, nadda, that has been shown or sold is something that is part of that.

Everything in the game you can get that people are buying, even if its something cosmetic that is not in the game, it does not effect the game at all.

The things people are buying are definitely not cosmetic. From the stats at least we get a clear picture that some ships are going to be dramatically better fighters than others. The basic do everything starter ship is also outclassed by pretty much everything else in every area. This is far from cosmetic.

Like I say it remains a concern, I am not saying its going to play out that way, I know Chris in theory doesn't want it to, but equally there is a lot of pressure to pay back the backers and to make the purchases meaningful. Its not a universally good way to fund a games production, the different tiers that kickstarter and such are using are a bit problematic for producing fair games when giving advantages. I think what bothers me more is the huge cost of the ships and that fact we really don't know what will happen in game with them. Its simply too early to know, and thus it surprises me that so many people have bought into them. Do you not think so many people with expectations of getting a P2W advantage for early funding are going to be demanding it? Its a dangerous melting pot of expectations if nothing else.
 

AHamick

Senior member
Nov 3, 2008
252
3
81
Calling backer packs pay to win has some merit, depending on how you look at it.

On day one will a free player flying his aurora have a notable disadvantage against a backer with a super hornet in head to head PvP ? Yep. But the player with that super hornet will have no ability to work in the economy game like the player with the aurora can.

If your only interest in SC is to jump right in and start shooting other players out of the sky through PvP you may find yourself at a disadvantage against a backer with a combat ship. If a free player invests sometime in acquiring in game currency they can get that same combat ship and be on the same level (PvP wise) as that backer who purchased one.

The concern of a pay to win system should only be a factor when these purchasable items are either exclusive to a cash shop or overwhelmingly difficult for a player to achieve. Buying an Idris is not a viable option for a vast majority of players, never mind backers, but it is certainly a viable goal for a small group of players to "grind" for.

Also keep in mind ships like an Idris or other "cap" ships will either require in game currency for NPCs or a group of friends to operate them effectively.

All of our opinions and beliefs are purely speculative until we get to actually play and see how it all falls into place. For all we know an Idris might find itself up the creek against a dozen auroras and mustangs, and I would hope the devs feel the same way.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Calling backer packs pay to win has some merit, depending on how you look at it.

On day one will a free player flying his aurora have a notable disadvantage against a backer with a super hornet in head to head PvP ? Yep. But the player with that super hornet will have no ability to work in the economy game like the player with the aurora can.

If your only interest in SC is to jump right in and start shooting other players out of the sky through PvP you may find yourself at a disadvantage against a backer with a combat ship. If a free player invests sometime in acquiring in game currency they can get that same combat ship and be on the same level (PvP wise) as that backer who purchased one.

The concern of a pay to win system should only be a factor when these purchasable items are either exclusive to a cash shop or overwhelmingly difficult for a player to achieve. Buying an Idris is not a viable option for a vast majority of players, never mind backers, but it is certainly a viable goal for a small group of players to "grind" for.

Also keep in mind ships like an Idris or other "cap" ships will either require in game currency for NPCs or a group of friends to operate them effectively.

All of our opinions and beliefs are purely speculative until we get to actually play and see how it all falls into place. For all we know an Idris might find itself up the creek against a dozen auroras and mustangs, and I would hope the devs feel the same way.

There's also organizations. Mine is already talking about buying a collective fleet, if everyone in SUN donated $5 we could buy 20 more hornets, a dozen constellations, a couple of Idrises, etc. Only reason we haven't gone ahead is the details of collective ownership are still undecided.
 

AHamick

Senior member
Nov 3, 2008
252
3
81
There's also organizations. Mine is already talking about buying a collective fleet, if everyone in SUN donated $5 we could buy 20 more hornets, a dozen constellations, a couple of Idrises, etc. Only reason we haven't gone ahead is the details of collective ownership are still undecided.

Organizations are another avenue for free players to gain an edge in this game, I'd wager more so than pledging wads of cash.

Multiple players working together could easily pool money/resources to give new players a hornet or allow the group access to larger multi player ships.

The possible and limited "advantage" given by pledging is grossly outweighed by the real advantage of working in an organization. Solo play will be notably handicapped against those in an organization.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Organizations are another avenue for free players to gain an edge in this game, I'd wager more so than pledging wads of cash.

Multiple players working together could easily pool money/resources to give new players a hornet or allow the group access to larger multi player ships.

The possible and limited "advantage" given by pledging is grossly outweighed by the real advantage of working in an organization. Solo play will be notably handicapped against those in an organization.

Unless there's been some new announcement, there are no "free" players. The game will cost money to buy and play.

As another person said, complaining about players starting the game with bought for ships is the same thing as complaining about new players starting a year later at a disadvantage, which is ridiculous.
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,240
555
126
The things people are buying are definitely not cosmetic. From the stats at least we get a clear picture that some ships are going to be dramatically better fighters than others. The basic do everything starter ship is also outclassed by pretty much everything else in every area. This is far from cosmetic.

And nothing stops you from getting that same ship that is a dramatically better fighter than other ships. This game isn't just about fighting. Different ships have different roles and will be better than other ships at doing certain things. Just like in Eve, you won't go into combat with a Coverter, just like you wouldn't use a Thanatos to mine ice.

PvP isn't the core of this game. You won't get killed at the start of the game by someone who bought an Idris (even if that Idris could even hit a small fast flying ship, which it can't from the understanding of what the devs are saying unless the person flying the small, fast ship is simply going in a straight line right at the Idris). You won't even get killed by someone who didn't buy a ship. Why? Because you won't get killed unless you want to get killed by turning on the PvP flag, and even then, you will only get instanced with people who are "similar" to you. Otherwise it is simply you against the NPCs in the vast majority of space.

There was an interview about the instancing a while back. I suggest you go watch it.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
You won't even get killed by someone who didn't buy a ship. Why? Because you won't get killed unless you want to get killed by turning on the PvP flag, and even then, you will only get instanced with people who are "similar" to you. Otherwise it is simply you against the NPCs in the vast majority of space.

So basically what you are saying is to counter the inherient disadvantage they intend to match you off with people with equally crippled gear. Presumably that also means less reward for the PvP to begin with. Either that or you can go play on your own and not play the same Star Citizen game everyone else is, the one where those who spent more money get to rape and pillage the rest. Its a real possibility that will be necessary but one of the big draws of this game is its MMO appeal.

I know some people don't see a problem here but I do, I have seen this happen time and time again in games where a real benefit is dangled out to make money out of customers (some of the worst behaviour especially for a game that is already being sold) that gives them either nothing or a lot of benefit. The end result is sometimes a game people abandon in droves, not because the game is bad but because its unbalanced by design. If you throw the people who refuse to buy a $100 ship together they at least don't see the unbalance initially but just with WoT eventually it will catch up and you'll be facing something you can't even hurt because you outgrew kindergarten.

If you have an Idris at the beginning you will probably turn the PvP flag on. You'll go PvP more and that is what you'll get more experience and skill in. Ultimately you start ahead of someone who didn't spend the money and that either makes the "free players" not PvP or make their own game or only play with the other "free players" until such time as they can't anymore.

These mechanics don't fix it, there is no game mechanic I know of that fixes an inbalance in the game implemented for the purpose of making money. Star trek online charges for ships, the end result is to compete at PvP you need to spend serious money in that game, despite all the apparent things that say you don't have to. This has a lot of potential to end badly.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
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I'm still not sure what the complaint is here. Pay 2 Win is a business model that gives someone that buys an item an advantage over another player that they can't get in game. That is WoT whent hey had gold ammo. That was ammo only purchaseable with real money that was incredibly better than standard ammo.

The only advantage players here are getting is that of time. By backing the game they get an advantage in not needing to spend the game time earning those ships. Anyone however can get the exact same ships. So what's the problem? It's like complaining about middle school/high school kids playing a game for 10 hours a day and having a massive advantage over people that work.

The point was already brought up too, this is no different than if you buy the game a few months after release. Everyone that bought it day one will have an advantage in ships and gear, is there supposed to be a mechanic that fixes that? I guess so since the game has built one in to make the game more enjoyable for newcomers, but there are few games I know of that even offer this.

It seems to be the mechanics are being planned and created to cater to those that don't back the game now and don't purchase on day one.

If your goal is to out-level everyone and out gain them in points or something, well, welcome to the world of all of us that have careers and families. We can't compete with the middle/high school kids playing 10 hours a day and it's nice to have a game that isn't forcing us to compete with them.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
91
I'm still not sure what the complaint is here. Pay 2 Win is a business model that gives someone that buys an item an advantage over another player that they can't get in game. That is WoT whent hey had gold ammo. That was ammo only purchaseable with real money that was incredibly better than standard ammo.

The only advantage players here are getting is that of time. By backing the game they get an advantage in not needing to spend the game time earning those ships. Anyone however can get the exact same ships. So what's the problem? It's like complaining about middle school/high school kids playing a game for 10 hours a day and having a massive advantage over people that work.

The point was already brought up too, this is no different than if you buy the game a few months after release. Everyone that bought it day one will have an advantage in ships and gear, is there supposed to be a mechanic that fixes that? I guess so since the game has built one in to make the game more enjoyable for newcomers, but there are few games I know of that even offer this.

It seems to be the mechanics are being planned and created to cater to those that don't back the game now and don't purchase on day one.

If your goal is to out-level everyone and out gain them in points or something, well, welcome to the world of all of us that have careers and families. We can't compete with the middle/high school kids playing 10 hours a day and it's nice to have a game that isn't forcing us to compete with them.

This this this. I have a full time job and a gf. I don't have time to grind in any game. The option to buy a cool new ship makes this game much more interesting to me.