Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

[JSt0rm]

your estimate for 3.0 release is?

 

[TechBoyJK]

From what I read in the article it really comes across that CR didn't (possibly still doesn't) know how to manage a multi-department team. In that article you question my reading, it lists dozens of examples of how teams didn't talk with each other, didn't have the same standards, and in some cases were working on the same things.

Except that this is a startup! That's what this is all about. This isn't Bethesda; this is a brand new startup company.

These aren't management problems per se, these are growing pains. You can't just snap your fingers and throw money at a team and expect it to work.

I mean, they had some turnover. So what? Every company even remotely their size is going to have turnover. It's not a big deal.

 

[TechBoyJK]

"Shouldn't run a studio" is a gross overexaggeration, but I think it's pretty clear from the article that CR can be a pretty overbearing micromanager. It is what it is.

Exactly. Plenty of successful people are micromanagers. If often just comes down to personality type.

 

[Sabrewings]

I thought the demo was faked personally.

Yes, of course. All the journalists given private run throughs where they were able to decide where to go are just paid shills. It's all becoming clear now that I have that key piece of evidence.

 

[JSt0rm]

Yes, of course. All the journalists given private run throughs where they were able to decide where to go are just paid shills. It's all becoming clear now that I have that key piece of evidence.

When do you think 3.0 will release?

 

[Sabrewings]

When do you think 3.0 will release?

50% chance December, 50% chance January. Disregard their accounts if you will, but the gaming press saw it in action and interactive, so not staged. CIG delivered 2.0 after announcing it at Citcon last year, so I don't see why they won't be able to deliver here.

 

[JSt0rm]

Ok 3.0 as shown by the end of January. We will see

 

[Sabrewings]

Ok 3.0 as shown by the end of January. We will see

Indeed we will. So, your opinion is that it won't be done by January then? What is your estimate?

 

[JSt0rm]

Oh the game press was playing 2.5 or 2.6 not 3.0.

 

[Sabrewings]

"Shouldn't run a studio" is a gross overexaggeration, but I think it's pretty clear from the article that CR can be a pretty overbearing micromanager. It is what it is.

Indeed. I've worked for a few of his type before. While they're stressful to work for on a project, they'll get your best work from you and often deliver amazing work.

Oh the game press was playing 2.5 or 2.6 not 3.0.

Negatron. They reported being able to direct where the Freelancer went on the planet before heading to the outpost. Definitely not 2.5 or 2.6.

 

[JSt0rm]

All of the kiosks were running 2.5. Whatever happened on some special rig somewhere is up to you to believe.

 

[Sabrewings]

All of the kiosks were running 2.5. Whatever happened on some special rig somewhere is up to you to believe.

*facepalm*

There was a press-only room where the demo was run live for press.

https://youtu.be/M4hdRXOdfWg?t=14m37s

An article from one of the members introduced in that very clip:

Chris’s claim of each world being exciting to explore, despite taking literal hours to travel across, seems too good to be true, but it quickly becomes apparent that, in the demo at least, he is correct. A completely unintentional failed drop from our ship to the planet's surface means a good 10 or so minutes of driving across an area of the world we probably weren't meant to see. Instead of just holding the accelerate button the player at the controls is forced to plan a route on the fly and tackle surfaces that he can reasonably climb, as some of the height changes are significant, despite most likely never being touched by an developer before.

http://www.redbull.com/us/en/games/stories/1331814041509/making-star-citizens-planets-believable

Whatever you want to believe, though. Be a thirsty horse. I mean, paid shill conspiracy makes much more sense to me than, you know, game developers developing a game.

 

[JSt0rm]

End of January.

 

[Sabrewings]

End of January.

Cheers, then. We halfway agree on something.

 

[Skel]

Except that this is a startup! That's what this is all about. This isn't Bethesda; this is a brand new startup company.

These aren't management problems per se, these are growing pains. You can't just snap your fingers and throw money at a team and expect it to work.

I mean, they had some turnover. So what? Every company even remotely their size is going to have turnover. It's not a big deal.

Oddly I haven't mentioned turn over.. not sure why you keep bringing it up... Oddly, it really seems that CR has been throwing money at hiring people and just expecting it to work. It might stand a chance if he'd back off from the tiny pointless details of it.. From what I've read in the article.. around the part

I think in Chris' case he creates a lot of the problems by the way he chooses to position himself within the company. He is the lead, the director, the project director, and the CEO. You're going to destroy the manager's ability to manage the teams and the directors' ability to manage the teams when you've got that level of interruption from a person that they all report to.”

This right there makes a bad leader.. if you don't support those under you, no one will respect them. The fact that he's so engrossed in the small details of the project vs trying to get all the teams in line is another thing I say makes him a bad leader. There's making sure the ship is going where you want it, and another overwriting your team's leadership by taking away their ability to decide if something's done (note, again in the article it talks about how he'd declare something good, even though the department's leadership saying it wasn't finished.

If anything else.. and the thing that reminded me of the 38 Studios stuff.. He keeps changing the scope and direction of the game. He started with a set of goals and ideas and as they continue to sell the game promises, he continues to add to them. From what the article says, it's not little stuff either. While I don't recall if there was ever a projected release date for the game, it looks like it's been going the Duke Nukem route with constantly delaying the game attempting to add yet another feature. You can tell me that isn't an issue, but from my point of view, it shows a inexperienced leader with a major lack of focus. That makes a really bad leader... regardless if it's a 'startup' or a seasoned company. The one thing I do think they've done extremely right (and again, I don't play the game, nor do I follow this much) is the way they've found to milk money out of people for something that doesn't' exist. The amounts of money that people have poured into this game, without a game even remotely existing is nothing short of amazing. That's one thing CR has really done right. I really do hope that somehow they put out a game (even if it does take another 10 years and a new engine), though there is a big part of me that wonders what the fall out would be if he doesn't.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Oddly I haven't mentioned turn over.. not sure why you keep bringing it up...

Because you said he's a bad leader. Bad leadership causes turnover. That's why I bring it up, because it's completely relevant.

This right there makes a bad leader.. if you don't support those under you, no one will respect them. The fact that he's so engrossed in the small details of the project vs trying to get all the teams in line is another thing I say makes him a bad leader. There's making sure the ship is going where you want it, and another overwriting your team's leadership by taking away their ability to decide if something's done (note, again in the article it talks about how he'd declare something good, even though the department's leadership saying it wasn't finished.

That's not a bad leader. You're saying the leader of the most successful crowd funding project in gaming history isn't a good leader. The guy who raised $125M and has a team of 400 people? Ok, there's some dunning krueger logic going on here.

This is a work of passion for Chris Roberts. He has his vision. He's going to see it through. Leaders like this want people to build what he wants so he can complete his vision. This isn't a group vision. This is HIS vision. When he wants to make sure every detail he expects to be there, is there, it's going to take some micromanagement.

While I don't recall if there was ever a projected release date for the game, it looks like it's been going the Duke Nukem route with constantly delaying the game attempting to add yet another feature.

Nope. They stopped adding major features a while back. They mention that in the Kotaku article. This is absolutely nothing like Duke Nukem, which was a bastard child of a project passed from studio to studio until someone finally put in the effort to finish something. Vastly different history, timeline, budget, and effort. Other than being video games, their history is nothing alike.

I really do hope that somehow they put out a game (even if it does take another 10 years and a new engine)

Comments like these make me think you didn't read the Kotaku article you posted. You said you did, but I doubt it. On top of that, are you not even keeping up with the game?

The engine is fine. They already worked out most of the major bugs they have. They've demo'd some of their most ambitious features. They put out videos weekly, blogs, webcasts, etc. If you're keeping up, you wouldn't even be wondering if it was going to take 10 years or need a new engine. No offense, but maybe you just need to get caught up.

 

[Sabrewings]

Gamers Nexus have another great series of interviews coming out. I'm really interested in the one with Sean Tracy.

http://www.gamersnexus.net/gg/2613-...-citizen-procedural-planets-alpha3-citizencon

 

[Seba]

Even end of January for 3.0 seems optimistic to me. I would say late February for 3.0 going live, at earliest (if it is to still include all things announced at Gamescom). If they drop chunks from it, such as for instance planet landings, then, yes, maybe sooner.

 

[Malibutomi]

Well actually we can't really estimate 3.0 release as 2.0 and now 3.0 demo showed they are at least half a year ahead compared what is on live now.
Yes they are patching the live servers, but in the background they are making these bigger new builds, so we can't really tell how it shapes. 3.0 release can be postponed if they find some mayor bugs, but if not, they can just let it out...TBH the 2.0 was buggy as hell when it was released, but they patched it at insane speed, and in a month it was pretty stable.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Well actually we can't really estimate 3.0 release as 2.0 and now 3.0 demo showed they are at least half a year ahead compared what is on live now.
Yes they are patching the live servers, but in the background they are making these bigger new builds, so we can't really tell how it shapes. 3.0 release can be postponed if they find some mayor bugs, but if not, they can just let it out...TBH the 2.0 was buggy as hell when it was released, but they patched it at insane speed, and in a month it was pretty stable.

This. I was actually surprised at how fast the content (and system) generation has sped up over the past several months. Kotaku's article actually covers this as due to the Crytek engineer pickup which really makes sense.

 

[Skel]

Because you said he's a bad leader. Bad leadership causes turnover. That's why I bring it up, because it's completely relevant.

OK.. I agreed with you that turnover doesn't mean bad leadership, but if you want to keep bringing it up feel free. This may be my last post on this as my brother is fond of saying "You can't tell a hard headed Motherfucker anything". You really are all in on this game, and seem to refuse to entertain any idea that isn't how awesome this game is. To each their own, and if you're happy that way, more power to you..

That's not a bad leader. You're saying the leader of the most successful crowd funding project in gaming history isn't a good leader. The guy who raised $125M and has a team of 400 people? Ok, there's some dunning krueger logic going on here.

I completely agree. To think that a person's ability to milk money out of it's investors (in this case it's end users) has anything to do with his ability to be a good leader does fall into the Dunning-Kurger logic. Just because he's good at one thing, doesn't make him good at the others..

Of course that has little to do with what I mentioned on why I thought he was a bad leader. It's more of a "yeah, so he sucks at empowering his management and teams.. but he made a lot of money with commercials." I've stated why I think he's a bad leader in my posts, so far you've only said that there's been turnover but that doesn't mean bad leadership (which again, I've already agreed with) and that he's made a bunch of money. I don't recall seeing you say anything else on why he's a good leader.

And I haven't even gotten into the public beratings he seems to love. again.. even in the Kotaku article.. and I dont' think he refuted they happened, only that he felt some people deserved them.

This is a work of passion for Chris Roberts. He has his vision. He's going to see it through. Leaders like this want people to build what he wants so he can complete his vision. This isn't a group vision. This is HIS vision. When he wants to make sure every detail he expects to be there, is there, it's going to take some micromanagement.

And that right there makes him a very bad leader. The fact it's all about him and not his team. If he was a leader of any sort, he'd be empowering of his team. This project would be a company project with him constantly talking up the talent he's gotten. The fact that he still insists this is completely his baby and treats everyone else like their visions suck makes him a bad leader. A good leader makes sure it is a team and takes their personal ego out of it... at least publicly. The fact that he doesn't means (to me) that he doesn't care about his team... a sign of a crappy leader.

Nope. They stopped adding major features a while back. They mention that in the Kotaku article. This is absolutely nothing like Duke Nukem, which was a bastard child of a project passed from studio to studio until someone finally put in the effort to finish something. Vastly different history, timeline, budget, and effort. Other than being video games, their history is nothing alike.

When? I just read about them adding VR support, something that according to the article one IGN happened this year. In every article I've now read on this, they all talk about the issue of feature creep. The game might have already been out if CR would stop adding something new every time he talks about the game. Go read up on Duke.. the guy who made him kept changing the specs every time he saw a new game. It created a endless cycle of trying to do everything and not releasing anything.. which does sound a lot like this game. It started as a Wing Commander dog fighting thing (at least according to it's kickstarter) and now is a MMO with all these features and now VR! I'm pretty sure, based again on every article I've read, that the game would have made it's late 2014 release had they stayed with what they were shooting for originally.

Comments like these make me think you didn't read the Kotaku article you posted. You said you did, but I doubt it. On top of that, are you not even keeping up with the game?

The engine is fine. They already worked out most of the major bugs they have. They've demo'd some of their most ambitious features. They put out videos weekly, blogs, webcasts, etc. If you're keeping up, you wouldn't even be wondering if it was going to take 10 years or need a new engine. No offense, but maybe you just need to get caught up.

Comments like this make me think you don't read what I write. I had said that I only was going off the Kotaku article. As a point, you may want to go back an look at the end of it. They had a bunch of people say that the engine wasn't capable of doing what CR is saying will be in the game.

Ido agree that I didn't know the whole story, and still don't I'm sure, but I have now read a ton of articles on this. It honestly sounds even worse than it did when I just read the Kotaku, and that was before I came across the Derek Smart stuff (which does sound over the top, though there are a couple of things he said I agree with). If there are pro-SC articles that tell me how it's on track and hasn't been suffering from feature creep please send them along. This has made for interesting reading at least.

 

[Sabrewings]

They had a bunch of people say that the engine wasn't capable of doing what CR is saying will be in the game.

I'd be curious to know if any of those individuals are actual engine devs. Since those who are (Frankfurt and some of the Manchester team) seem pretty enthusiastic about it. They have the people who created the engine, and others who are the most talented non-Crytek CryEngine devs on the planet. The engine can be made into whatever they want it to do, and that's what they're doing. They don't even call it CryEngine anymore, it's modified so much.

the Derek Smart stuff (which does sound over the top, though there are a couple of things he said I agree with).

I'd suggest more reading on this. The guy has been an internet troll and loves stirring controversy since the 90s. He's widely panned as a nobody and un-talented hack in the industry. He's also toting around a history of failed predictions:

https://as.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/...ions_and_allegations/?st=itixrc3t&sh=0b73a4c5

Yes, that's a subreddit dedicated to documenting his walk-backs, contradictions, and failed predictions. He's that notorious of a douche. My personal favorite was him pointing at z-fighting in the PU that either their 64-bit conversion was faked or hacked together improperly. Turns out it was a bug with some of the refactored lighting, which they fixed in short order. Anyway, lots of reading out there on this guy, going back 20 years.

Edit: Here's the most recent list of predictions from the SC Nostradamus:

https://as.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/...predictions_reviewed/?st=itiy97b2&sh=63684426

 

[Malibutomi]

When? I just read about them adding VR support, something that according to the article one IGN happened this year. In every article I've now read on this, they all talk about the issue of feature creep. The game might have already been out if CR would stop adding something new every time he talks about the game. Go read up on Duke.. the guy who made him kept changing the specs every time he saw a new game. It created a endless cycle of trying to do everything and not releasing anything.. which does sound a lot like this game. It started as a Wing Commander dog fighting thing (at least according to it's kickstarter) and now is a MMO with all these features and now VR! I'm pretty sure, based again on every article I've read, that the game would have made it's late 2014 release had they stayed with what they were shooting for originally.


Comments like this make me think you don't read what I write. I had said that I only was going off the Kotaku article. As a point, you may want to go back an look at the end of it. They had a bunch of people say that the engine wasn't capable of doing what CR is saying will be in the game.

Ido agree that I didn't know the whole story, and still don't I'm sure, but I have now read a ton of articles on this. It honestly sounds even worse than it did when I just read the Kotaku, and that was before I came across the Derek Smart stuff (which does sound over the top, though there are a couple of things he said I agree with). If there are pro-SC articles that tell me how it's on track and hasn't been suffering from feature creep please send them along. This has made for interesting reading at least.

I think with the features he meant the stretch goals, which they stopped years ago, around 60 mil.

As for its evolving from WC type game to MMO:
The original kickstarter goes by this:

• A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
• Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
• Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
• Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
• No Subscriptions
• No Pay to Win

Chris himself never wanted to call it an MMO as he thinks its too much associated with fantasy games. Most of the backers i think are happy to wait a bit more for a better game (since its reached more than 120mil now), than get a game made form 30mil, knowing theres 90more that could have been spent on the game.

If you want some pro-SC articles google "Star Citizen Gamescom 2016". OFC the articles about problems are more interesting, because if there is no drama, the news are just "SC hits another million", or "SC showed of X feature"...while the drama articles are long wall of texts based on accusations, and "anonymous" sources.

If someone follows the project its clearly visible, that now they finally fixed up the engine (64 bit conversion), and finalized their tools, and pipelines, and development gathered momentum, last years 2.0 was the base, now we are at 2.5, after Citcon comes 2.6 with the long awaited FPS segment, and a few months after comes 3.0 which will include most of the game core elements (few professions, earning money, shops, planetary landings etc.

About DS (duh) he is well known for bending truth, and straight out lying about things.
He's predicting doom of the SC project for more than a year now, saying it will collapse in 90 days (that was a year ago), devs will leave, all what they show is faked, and cannot be done, etc.
All his predictions fail one after another, but he just keeps swinging his poohammer every day in the form of hundreds of tweets, and blogposts. I say we never mention his name again, or we might summon him...

 

[Skel]

I'd be curious to know if any of those individuals are actual engine devs. Since those who are (Frankfurt and some of the Manchester team) seem pretty enthusiastic about it. They have the people who created the engine, and others who are the most talented non-Crytek CryEngine devs on the planet. The engine can be made into whatever they want it to do, and that's what they're doing. They don't even call it CryEngine anymore, it's modified so much.

From what I've read, it was the devs saying it. In the Kotaku article at the end they do mention that given enough time and money they could rewrite a lot of the engine to make it do what they want. The issue there is, you'll still be waiting a long time for the game. At some point you do have to release, which seems to be second for CIG. Every article seems to agree that had they stuck to what they originally kickstarted they'd have released something by now.

I'd suggest more reading on this. The guy has been an internet troll and loves stirring controversy since the 90s. He's widely panned as a nobody and un-talented hack in the industry. He's also toting around a history of failed predictions:

https://as.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/...ions_and_allegations/?st=itixrc3t&sh=0b73a4c5

Yes, that's a subreddit dedicated to documenting his walk-backs, contradictions, and failed predictions. He's that notorious of a douche. My personal favorite was him pointing at z-fighting in the PU that either their 64-bit conversion was faked or hacked together improperly. Turns out it was a bug with some of the refactored lighting, which they fixed in short order. Anyway, lots of reading out there on this guy, going back 20 years.

I got that quickly. Why I mentioned that he was over the top. I took a lot of what he said with a grain of salt. He is correct on the fact that the game was originally slated to come out in 2014, as we're closing out 2016 and there isn't a solid release date in sight, people should be questioning wtf is going on... at least the people that put money into it. I do agree that Smart is prob in it for the attention. He does like to devote a lot of time towards something he feels attacks him all the time.

 

[Malibutomi]

I got that quickly. Why I mentioned that he was over the top. I took a lot of what he said with a grain of salt. He is correct on the fact that the game was originally slated to come out in 2014, as we're closing out 2016 and there isn't a solid release date in sight, people should be questioning wtf is going on... at least the people that put money into it. I do agree that Smart is prob in it for the attention. He does like to devote a lot of time towards something he feels attacks him all the time.

Most people realized, that with the money they piled up, and - luckily - pumped into the project the scope of the game grew, and it cannot be finished in 2 years. Yes it will take more time, but it will be a much better game (hopefully) at the end. For instance the planetary landings were just a distant idea which may be implemented in the future, after release. But as Crytek imploded, and CIG sucked up all the Cryengine devs, they put that together so quickly, that it is now a thing.
Again, the people who are not blind knew that you cannot make a single player game AND an MMO in 2 years, when most MMOs were developed for 6-7 years. Most single games for 2-3 years.
Also most of the backers i know just put in their few $ because they thought this game worth to give a chance, then go on their way, playing other games, living their lives, and they check back from time to time to see how it goes. When it will be released they will play it. They (we) don't sit in a corner with sweaty palms chanting "when will it come - why is it late - when will it come - why is it late"
So yes some might be worried, but if you think about it CIG is in the normal development time of a game this big and complex.
If they can start a beta for SC in 2017 that makes it 5 years of development (including they started with a very small team, and built the studios and staff on the way), which is not exceptionally long in the industry.