Squat Log - Target goal 405

[TallBill]

A while back I was hampered by some hip issues which killed my squat and deadlift, and recently I tweaked my back just a bit while squatting but went back at it last night and felt amazing.

My PR for a squat was 395 maybe a year ago and my PR for deadlifting was 495 also about a year ago. For now I'm going to focus mainly on squats and I'll do some other pulling work. Once I get to 405 I'll switch focus back on deadlift, my body simply cant handle trying to improve both at the same time.


So here's what I did last night:

I do my warmup squats with a narrow stance, it loosens my hips up.
5x135
5x225
Then I switch to a wider stance that most tall guys use.
3x275
3x285
3x295
3x305
2x315
1x335
1x355
20x225

After that I did 3x5 step ups holding 95 db's in each hand, and then 3x5 on the leg extension machine maxed out.

Decent enough workout, I'll probably squat again on tuesday and attempt to max out, maybe 375 is my target goal. I'll kind of play around with volume and high rep/low rep stuff for a while.


Update - Massive bump, going back at it!

 

[conorvansmack]

Volume!

Wow, that's awesome. How did that last set at 225 go? I'd like to get 20 x 225 by the end of January.

 

[Bulldog13]

20 x 225 is a hell of a set. Whenever someone starts preaching at me about CrossFit and the fruitlessness of strength training or bodybuilding I tell them to get back to me after they have banged out 5 sets of that.

I made one guy vomit =).

 

[TallBill]

Volume!

Wow, that's awesome. How did that last set at 225 go? I'd like to get 20 x 225 by the end of January.

Not a heck of a lot of fun. I actually wanna get my overall volume up though. Last time I squatted was probably something like 8 sets of 3 at 275.

 

[brikis98]

Whenever someone starts preaching at me about CrossFit and the fruitlessness of strength training or bodybuilding I tell them to get back to me after they have banged out 5 sets of that.

I made one guy vomit =).

Huh? First, Crossfit includes a hefty portion of strength training. There are some crappy CF boxes out there that focus too much on metcons, but all the respectable ones regularly include squats, deadlifts, presses, cleans, snatches, etc in the training. Second, banging out 5 sets of 20 on squats makes no sense regardless of what kind of training you are doing. Third, while you should definitely train hard, pushing so hard that you end up leaving your lunch on the floor is to be avoided. It might happen from time to time by accident or in a competition setting (where you should go 110&#37, but I wouldn't exactly go around boasting about it.

Oh, and for the record, I did 20 rep squats as part of my Crossfit Strength Bias style routine. Worked my way up to 300x20 before it started to take too much of a toll on my recovery (I'd be sore for days after) and I stopped. Definitely one of the few workouts that I would absolutely dread, with all the others being Crossfit metcons (especially "Eva").

 

[TallBill]

You can't go 110%

 

[SociallyChallenged]

You can't go 110%

You can compared to your previous best efforts. Don't be a debbie downer Because technically you can go 110%. It just depends on what your comparison is.

 

[calvinbiss]

Bill - when you say narrow stance, how narrow do you mean, inside shoulder width, feet 6" apart, etc.??

Similarly, when you say wide, how wide do you mean? An how tall are you?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Bill - when you say narrow stance, how narrow do you mean, inside shoulder width, feet 6" apart, etc.??

Similarly, when you say wide, how wide do you mean? An how tall are you?

If I remember correctly, TallBill is 6'5".

 

[Zivic]

A while back I was hampered by some hip issues which killed my squat and deadlift, and recently I tweaked my back just a bit while squatting but went back at it last night and felt amazing.

My PR for a squat was 395 maybe a year ago and my PR for deadlifting was 495 also about a year ago. For now I'm going to focus mainly on squats and I'll do some other pulling work. Once I get to 405 I'll switch focus back on deadlift, my body simply cant handle trying to improve both at the same time.


So here's what I did last night:

I do my warmup squats with a narrow stance, it loosens my hips up.
5x135
5x225
Then I switch to a wider stance that most tall guys use.
3x275
3x285
3x295
3x305
2x315
1x335
1x355
20x225

After that I did 3x5 step ups holding 95 db's in each hand, and then 3x5 on the leg extension machine maxed out.

Decent enough workout, I'll probably squat again on tuesday and attempt to max out, maybe 375 is my target goal. I'll kind of play around with volume and high rep/low rep stuff for a while.

your volume is WAY too high....and you are basically maxing out for every set. Then, you are burning your legs out with a 20 rep set... WTF????

.... you are have to find a weight that you can do in the 4-7 rep range. do 3, maybe 4 working sets depending on what else you do in the workout. end on your HEAVIEST set, don't drop weight. Work for the pump, not the burn. Do acclimation sets for warm ups. do the lifts just like you will do in your working sets. a neutral stance, maybe slightly wider than shoulder width.

This is how I would expect your workout to be for squats:
acclimation/warm up
135x10
135x8
185x5
225x3
275x 1, maybe 2
------------
working sets
295x6
295x5
300x5
and if you feel you need to do one more:
305x4

move on to the sled for 2-3 sets of 4-6 reps. You shouldn't need a warm up on this.

then, 2 sets of stiff leg dead lifts for 6 reps each.

that is all...

 

[surfsatwerk]

that is all...

You are just precious.

 

[Zivic]

You are just precious.

precious or not, I know how to lift for strength.....

 

[SociallyChallenged]

precious or not, I know how to lift for strength.....

Not at 275x1 if his max is 355. Sets of 5 are typically done at an intensity around 80% of the 1RM. That means his 5 rep work should be done around 285lbs. Your weight suggestion is too light to induce significant overload. Although I agree with your original point on volume, you're still not suggesting the correct volume/intensity balance.

 

[Koing]

My 1RM 201kg
bar x 12
60 x 5-6
100 x 3
140 x 3
160 x training sets x 3-6reps x 5-6sets

You do what YOU NEED TO DO TO WARM UP/ prepare the body for your training sets. I do some extra back stuff that people generally don't need to do. Why? Chronic back injury 5yrs ago.

But a solid general rule is 80% is about the minimum % needed for strength gains. Anything less is too light or your injured and building back up so the % aren't so accurate anyway.

Smash it to 405 Bill!

Koing

 

[surfsatwerk]

precious or not, I know how to lift for strength.....

http://www.chaosandpain.com/content/youre-focused-all-wrong-sort-details

(NSFW Images maybe not in this article, but elsewhere on the site. I take that back hot girl in a thong at the bottom of the page.)

Now I think the guy who wrote the article is a god damn lunatic, but he has an important message.

"Lately, everywhere I look, I've noticed that people tend to focus on all the wrong sorts of details, in nearly everything they do. They obsess about minutiae, but ignore the entirety of whatever it is that they're doing."

The details you focus on as being critical for strength gain aren't going to do anything magical for the OP. What is important is the OP believes in his program, enjoys his workouts, and lifts heavy and hard.

 

[Zivic]

Not at 275x1 if his max is 355. Sets of 5 are typically done at an intensity around 80% of the 1RM. That means his 5 rep work should be done around 285lbs. Your weight suggestion is too light to induce significant overload. Although I agree with your original point on volume, you're still not suggesting the correct volume/intensity balance.

he needs to find the correct weight for 4-6 reps or so.... my weight recommendations were just estimates based on his workout. they maybe too light for him, or may be too heavy to keep him around that 5 rep range. He will need to work that out for himself and find the weight he can handle

 

[Zivic]

http://www.chaosandpain.com/content/youre-focused-all-wrong-sort-details

(NSFW Images maybe not in this article, but elsewhere on the site. I take that back hot girl in a thong at the bottom of the page.)

Now I think the guy who wrote the article is a god damn lunatic, but he has an important message.

"Lately, everywhere I look, I've noticed that people tend to focus on all the wrong sorts of details, in nearly everything they do. They obsess about minutiae, but ignore the entirety of whatever it is that they're doing."

The details you focus on as being critical for strength gain aren't going to do anything magical for the OP. What is important is the OP believes in his program, enjoys his workouts, and lifts heavy and hard.

I am not focusing on the minut details. His volume is MUCH too high. he will over train and not get the results he is going for.

you are right, he needs to lift heavy and hard, but over training is, IMHO, the worst thing, and one of the most common thing people do wrong..... I definitely don't consider it a minut thing.

It is easy to gain strength, there is no magical secret to it. That said, it seems everybody does everything but what they should be doing....

 

[Koing]

I am not focusing on the minut details. His volume is MUCH too high. he will over train and not get the results he is going for.

you are right, he needs to lift heavy and hard, but over training is, IMHO, the worst thing, and one of the most common thing people do wrong..... I definitely don't consider it a minut thing.

It is easy to gain strength, there is no magical secret to it. That said, it seems everybody does everything but what they should be doing....

The guy won't over train unless he is consistently hammering out 20reps at the end of his session like the one he did the other day he posted.

Doing 20reps won't increase your 1RM very effectively, as if you were doing 80% x 5rep x 5sets. But it's fun to mix it up at times.

You are right it's not hard to get strong. You just need to train smart, eat, rest and be consistent over time. Squating about 2x bw isn't that hard if you train for a bit. It may be different if you weighed 200kg though but I can nearly bet your going to be seriously overweight in most cases.

Koing

 

[Zivic]

The guy won't over train unless he is consistently hammering out 20reps at the end of his session like the one he did the other day he posted.

Doing 20reps won't increase your 1RM very effectively, as if you were doing 80% x 5rep x 5sets. But it's fun to mix it up at times.

You are right it's not hard to get strong. You just need to train smart, eat, rest and be consistent over time. Squating about 2x bw isn't that hard if you train for a bit. It may be different if you weighed 200kg though but I can nearly bet your going to be seriously overweight in most cases.

Koing

He will overtrain if he is consistently repping 1-3 reps for 7 sets every time he works out. the 20 rep thing at the end is just pointless. burns out his muscles for no reason at all... basically like doing a good squat routine then running 5 miles immediately afterwords.... you just completely negated the workout.

edit:
you can't strictly go off % of 1rpm because it doesn't work that way for everyone. I work out more in the 85-90% of my 1 rpm max for some lifts (bench), yet workout in the 75-80% range for other lifts (deads and squats). I am still hitting my target reps for both, but for bench I can handle the weight better for reps compared to my deads or squats.

doing a 2x bw lift for a squat is a bare minimum I would expect out of a person that legitimately works out. I think 2.5x+ is a better goal to shoot for. Heck, I am not that great at squats and damn near hit 3x my bw for squats and just short of 2.25x my bw on bench both @ 222 lbs

 

[brikis98]

He will overtrain if he is consistently repping 1-3 reps for 7 sets every time he works out.

No he won't. Many powerlifters and o-lifters train with routines similar to this. Overtraining doesn't happen from some magic number of reps or sets but from consistently doing more than your body can recover from. Recovery abilities vary widely from person to person, based on genetics, diet, sleep, and training experience. 7 sets of 1-3 reps is well within reason and I suspect that most people would not overtrain from doing it 2-3 times per week.

The 20 rep thing at the end is just pointless.

Have you ever done 20 rep squats? When used correctly, they can produce some crazy gains in strength, size and mental toughness. Of course, tossing in a random set of 20 at the end of a workout is not the way to go about it, but 20 rep squats in general are far from "pointless".

Heck, I am not that great at squats and damn near hit 3x my bw for squats and just short of 2.25x my bw on bench both @ 222 lbs

Really? You have a ~660+lb squat and ~500lb bench press? I'm not sure if you are aware, but these are elite numbers and would classify you as "great at squats". Got any videos of this?

 

[Zivic]

No he won't. Many powerlifters and o-lifters train with routines similar to this. Overtraining doesn't happen from some magic number of reps or sets but from consistently doing more than your body can recover from. Recovery abilities vary widely from person to person, based on genetics, diet, sleep, and training experience. 7 sets of 1-3 reps is well within reason and I suspect that most people would not overtrain from doing it 2-3 times per week.


HOLY HELL, 2-3 times a week. I am hoping you mean a 3 day split and not meaning squats 2-3 times a week!!! either way, if he is doing 1 rep at the most weight he can handle, yes he will be overtraining. he would basically be maxing out 7 sets every workout.

Have you ever done 20 rep squats? When used correctly, they can produce some crazy gains in strength, size and mental toughness. Of course, tossing in a random set of 20 at the end of a workout is not the way to go about it, but 20 rep squats in general are far from "pointless".

They are pointless... I know you think a change in routine or the "shock" or some other training myth is your evidence for backing a 20 rep set, but a simple change in split or change the order of the lift is enough to produce the same results


Really? You have a ~660+lb squat and ~500lb bench press? I'm not sure if you are aware, but these are elite numbers and would classify you as "great at squats". Got any videos of this?

max bench 490
squat 620 (OK so closer to 2.75x than 3x, but still plenty respectable)

I am off those numbers currently, but still bench a respectable 450-460 now. Last week's workout was 375x5, 385x5, 390x4. I am coming off a back injury and only in my 3rd week back on squats and deads so I am only repping in the 315-330 range for sets of 6 right now. I know I won't get back to where I was for either of those lifts, but I think a 500 squat for me is doable, maybe by this time next yr if things go well. I farm, so my lifting season is relatively short -> only oct through april. I am not as serious the past few yrs as I was, but I still enjoy it. having the muscle tear in my lower back really put a damper on my lifting, but like I said, I have been able to do deads and squats again the last 3 weeks for the first time in about a yr.

I am definitely built for bench. Hoping in the next yr or two I can push a 500 or better bench. I have made two attempts at it, but just can't best 490. It makes it even harder when I am not squating and doing deads like I should be. I always say the key to a big bench is a big squat

edit:
no I don't take vids of me lifting. I can have my former lifting partner verify if you like, but I never really felt I needed to video it for my own bragging rights. I always tell people if you don't believe me we can go to the gym anytime.

Looking back, I wish I had done some meets. I did our school's power meets in high school and thought about doing some competitions as I have gotten older, but my limited training time over the summer never lined up with the meets that were in my area. I had a couple yrs in college I could have likely done it, but I was more focused on bodybuilding (limiting my food intake and staying lean), so my overall strength suffered. I think if I get my back situation squared away I will definitely make more of an effort in the coming yrs. I still am relatively young (32) Right now, my focus is to drop some body weight and get my back to where I can handle the heavier weight

 

[brikis98]

HOLY HELL, 2-3 times a week. I am hoping you mean a 3 day split and not meaning squats 2-3 times a week!!!

Yes, you can do squats 2-3 times per week. This is common practice in beginner routines and intermediate routines. Squatting 3-6 times per week - including front squats, back squats, overhead squats, cleans and snatches - is also a regular part of olympic weightlifting routines. Only when you get to advanced weights - yes, a 600lb squat is unquestionably "advanced" - is a split routine likely to yield better progress.

either way, if he is doing 1 rep at the most weight he can handle, yes he will be overtraining. he would basically be maxing out 7 sets every workout.

Looking at the one workout he posted (assuming it's even representative of a typical workout for him), TallBill used "ascending sets". That means the weight is increasing each set, so you are NOT maxing out 7 sets every workout. Moreover, even routines that do "sets across", such as 7 singles at the same weight, typically use a sub-maximal weight. For example, if my max deadlift is 500lbs, I might do 7 singles with 475lbs. Both ascending sets and sets across can be an effective way to train and do not instantly lead to overtraining.

They are pointless... I know you think a change in routine or the "shock" or some other training myth is your evidence for backing a 20 rep set, but a simple change in split or change the order of the lift is enough to produce the same results

Again, have you ever done 20 rep squats?

They have nothing to do with changing your routine or "shocking" the system. They have everything to do with getting bigger, stronger and tougher. I thought it was a bunch of BS before trying it as well, but all it took was adding one one set of 20 once per week (the real 20 rep squat programs do it 2-3 times per week) and I saw noticeable gains. My squat numbers went up very consistently and so did every single other lift. I got mentally tougher and added some mass. Considering that my main form of training is Crossfit - where my training goals include not just strength but also endurance, power, speed, agility, etc - seeing such rapid gains was fairly unusual. I worked my way up from 225x20 to 300x20 in 6 months. My squat max increased from ~335 to 405 in the same time period. Nothing "elite", but for me, those were some huge gains.

I wouldn't recommend a 20 rep routine for any other exercise, but for squats, it flat out works. I'm not sure why - crazy hormonal response, the tendency of the legs to respond better to high rep workouts, the crazy toughness needed to survive a set of 20 squats - but they definitely work. I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner. I wouldn't do a 20 rep squat routine for more than a few months at a time. But done correctly, they ARE effective.

max bench 490
squat 620

Impressive. Not sure what your deadlift was, but these are seriously respectable numbers and very competition-worthy. Shame to hear about the injury, but hopefully you'll work your way back up.

 

[Zivic]

Yes, you can do squats 2-3 times per week. This is common practice in beginner routines and intermediate routines. Squatting 3-6 times per week - including front squats, back squats, overhead squats, cleans and snatches - is also a regular part of olympic weightlifting routines. Only when you get to advanced weights - yes, a 600lb squat is unquestionably "advanced" - is a split routine likely to yield better progress.


Looking at the one workout he posted (assuming it's even representative of a typical workout for him), TallBill used "ascending sets". That means the weight is increasing each set, so you are NOT maxing out 7 sets every workout. Moreover, even routines that do "sets across", such as 7 singles at the same weight, typically use a sub-maximal weight. For example, if my max deadlift is 500lbs, I might do 7 singles with 475lbs. Both ascending sets and sets across can be an effective way to train and do not instantly lead to overtraining.


Again, have you ever done 20 rep squats?

They have nothing to do with changing your routine or "shocking" the system. They have everything to do with getting bigger, stronger and tougher. I thought it was a bunch of BS before trying it as well, but all it took was adding one one set of 20 once per week (the real 20 rep squat programs do it 2-3 times per week) and I saw noticeable gains. My squat numbers went up very consistently and so did every single other lift. I got mentally tougher and added some mass. Considering that my main form of training is Crossfit - where my training goals include not just strength but also endurance, power, speed, agility, etc - seeing such rapid gains was fairly unusual. I worked my way up from 225x20 to 300x20 in 6 months. My squat max increased from ~335 to 405 in the same time period. Nothing "elite", but for me, those were some huge gains.

I wouldn't recommend a 20 rep routine for any other exercise, but for squats, it flat out works. I'm not sure why - crazy hormonal response, the tendency of the legs to respond better to high rep workouts, the crazy toughness needed to survive a set of 20 squats - but they definitely work. I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner. I wouldn't do a 20 rep squat routine for more than a few months at a time. But done correctly, they ARE effective.


Impressive. Not sure what your deadlift was, but these are seriously respectable numbers and very competition-worthy. Shame to hear about the injury, but hopefully you'll work your way back up.

haven't done a set of 20 reps in maybe 12 yrs. I see absolutely no reason to. I am able to get as strong and as big as I ever cared to without it, so IMHO it is wasted effort (fatiguing the muscle vs overloading it)

I wouldn't recommend doing squats any more often than every 5 days on any consistent basis. heck, for a while I was going 10 days in between my squat days. You factor in the stress from a day of doing deads and that is all I could handle. Less is more and the days you are out of the are much more critical than and meaningful than what you do in the gym. rest and recovery is hugely important

I never really maxed on a dead lift. I wasn't too keen on doing them on a consistant basis for that long of a period. made me much too thick through the waist. I was repping 465-480 for 4-6, so based on that, maybe mid 500's would be my guess

for what it's worth I follow the Max-OT training principles for the most part (it's 100% free to sign up for, but you do need to register). Haven't found anything that builds strength that is comparable. I have been to numerous gyms over the yrs, been through tons of other routines/guidelines/principles. nothing has even come close. best thing about it, it has reduced my gym time to half, or less of what it was.

the rest of this yr is focusing on my diet, cutting my bodyweight and getting my back, back in shape.

 

[brikis98]

I wouldn't recommend doing squats any more often than every 5 days on any consistent basis. heck, for a while I was going 10 days in between my squat days. You factor in the stress from a day of doing deads and that is all I could handle. Less is more and the days you are out of the are much more critical than and meaningful than what you do in the gym. rest and recovery is hugely important

Rest and recovery are essential, but because beginners/intermediates are moving far less weight, they can recover significantly faster. The typical beginner/intermediate can recover from a reasonable volume of most exercises in ~48 hours and be ready to lift a little more weight the next time. Because of this, they make MUCH faster progress repeating more or less the same exercises 2-3 times per week. On the other hand, because advanced lifters are moving far more weight, they take a lot longer to recover, and split routines are likely to be more efficient.

 

[Zivic]

Rest and recovery are essential, but because beginners/intermediates are moving far less weight, they can recover significantly faster. The typical beginner/intermediate can recover from a reasonable volume of most exercises in ~48 hours and be ready to lift a little more weight the next time. Because of this, they make MUCH faster progress repeating more or less the same exercises 2-3 times per week. On the other hand, because advanced lifters are moving far more weight, they take a lot longer to recover, and split routines are likely to be more efficient.

here's the problem in your logic... how can one feasibly work the same bodypart 2-3 times a week? there really aren't enough days unless you are doing multiple bodyparts each day.... and at that point, you won't be getting much out of your workouts because you would be more concerned with the volume vs actually doing quality lifts. You can work smaller muscle groups together, but not consistently work major muscle groups without hindering progress.

again, there is no magical secret. lots of weight, lots of rest, good diet.... don't overtrain. Less is more