Spin Off: AT's Testing Methods & Uber Mode

[Enigmoid]

I guess here is the reason why Uber mode was not considered. 290X is apparently faster. These are the AT's numbers.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1803944&postcount=1993

The chart changes completely when you throw out the useless 4K numbers and the even more useless 4K at medium/low.

Only really # 4,6,7,8,11,14,17,19,21,23,26,29,31 are relevant. Pretty much nobody has a 4K monitor and neither card performs acceptably at 4K res.

 

[railven]

The chart changes completely when you throw out the useless 4K numbers and the even more useless 4K at medium/low.

Only really # 4,6,7,8,11,14,17,19,21,23,26,29,31 are relevant. Pretty much nobody has a 4K monitor and neither card performs acceptably at 4K res.

Well then why run it at those resolutions? And why are people always wanting to dismiss data?

It's there for a reason, if you don't have a 4K monitor don't look at that data, but don't dismiss it. When I check out TPU I focus on 1600p, but I'm not going to say "who buys $700 cards for 900p resolution? Throw that data away!"

 

[AlNasty]

Default vs default. You have to enable Uber Mode. It is not the default mode for the 290X. So, you use straight out of the box experience vs straight out of the box experience.

Then you can also bench in Uber Mode and then note the noise tradeoff, etc.

But, if AMD wanted reviewers to only test in Uber Mode for benchmarks...they should have stated so.

If you compare the default experience between both cards, the Ti is leaps and bounds better than the 290X. To compare Uber Mode of the 290X vs the default mode of the 780Ti would be unfair because basically Uber Mode is an overclocked mode. In other words, whatever % Uber Mode allows the 290X to run...then that is what you would have to add in addition to the 780Ti.

Pretty simple. Not Ryan's fault AMD had to raise the temp and fan limit on Hawaii to be able to compete with Kepler. And, not Ryan's fault AMD had to create a 'quiet' mode to keep people's hearing safe from possible hearing loss. It was AMD's decision to put a turd cooler on their card.

And by the way, whoever in AMD's marketing department that approved the term 'Uber Mode' needs a new job. Dumbest, gimmickiest name I've ever seen for a card just about.

I don't think you are grasping the difference between Quiet mode & Uber mode, as you are relating it to overclocking. Overclocking is changing the settings to exceed the advertised performance, such as cpu or memory speed. I realize you know this. I only note it so I can explain the contrast. Uber mode allows the card to REACH ITS ADVERTISED SPEED/PERFORMANCE. It is in no way overclocking. Both cards have an advertised max speed. They should be tested at those speeds, if they can reach them. 1k is the advertised speed of the 290x, and Uber mode is how it gets there, as advertised. Quiet mode is a quick change way to adjust the fan speed/noise down if the user prefers. Its not a aftermarket bios flash or changes to the card. It is just a switch so the user can choose to get the advertised performance, or less noise. We are all in agreement that the cooling solution could be better, both cooling and noise. I have no rational idea why they put it in quiet mode for shipping, but if the switch was in Uber mode when shipped....would this switch still be an issue? I agree with your other comment, the Uber mode name is dumb. AMD should have dumped the $20 cooler, and put on a $50 cooler. Just another dumb decision from AMD.

 

[Janooo]

Interesting, things that stand out to me is them stating Nvidia is more aggressive than AMD in getting review criteria. Also, it was AT's call on including the OC'ed 460, of course they did it on their own...this following after stating Nvidia is more aggressive?

I like where he said more information is better, but when I read the 780 Ti article, it sort of ommitted information that was in the article itself...

Still not saying anything about bias or whatever, I still love AT and will continue reading here (even if being told to go else where, since it seems I'm not the audience (go figure)) but this article's conclusion struck me as odd when I was digesting the charts.

If you'd rather not draw a conclusion from the Uber mode scores, don't throw them into the chart, but you'll still catch flak so I guess it's a lose/lose situation.

This is really ridiculous.
AT tested the new Ti. Uber 290X is still faster. How to say that Ti is the fastest?
Easy, let's pretend the Uber mode does not exist.
Unbelievable. This is really an insult to AT's readers.

 

[sefsefsefsef]

I will say that Ryan's tone seems unusual in the 780 Ti review and in the 290 review. Seems out of character for him.

This whole discussion is just based around AMD not fitting the 290/x with a superb cooler, which some AIB partner will undoubtedly do. With a good cooler, suddenly the "uber" switch is superfluous. Remember, all the "uber" switch does is control fan speed, and if the HSF is of a great quality, then it won't have trouble cooling the 290x enough that it hits 1GHz all the time, even in the "default" "quiet" mode (just as an aside, I agree that it's ridiculous to assume anyone who buys a 290x with a reference cooler is ever going to game on it using "quiet" mode; everyone's going to use "uber" mode for gaming). With a non-reference cooler, the 290x will thoroughly beat the 780 Ti. Same thing with the 290 non-x. As soon as someone releases a non-reference 290, then it too will hit 947MHz consistently with low noise.

Suddenly, all of Ryan's complaints about the 290/x disappear. I hope he just didn't realize this when he used such strong language to condemn the references designs, because it might look silly if he has to change his tune about recommending the 290/x in a followup article.

 

[Janooo]

I will say that Ryan's tone seems unusual in the 780 Ti review and in the 290 review. Seems out of character for him.

This whole discussion is just based around AMD not fitting the 290/x with a superb cooler, which some AIB partner will undoubtedly do. With a good cooler, suddenly the "uber" switch is superfluous. Remember, all the "uber" switch does is control fan speed, and if the HSF is of a great quality, then it won't have trouble cooling the 290x enough that it hits 1GHz all the time, even in the "default" "quiet" mode (just as an aside, I agree that it's ridiculous to assume anyone who buys a 290x with a reference cooler is ever going to game on it using "quiet" mode; everyone's going to use "uber" mode for gaming). With a non-reference cooler, the 290x will thoroughly beat the 780 Ti. Same thing with the 290 non-x. As soon as someone releases a non-reference 290, then it too will hit 947MHz consistently with low noise.

Suddenly, all of Ryan's complaints about the 290/x disappear. I hope he just didn't realize this when he used such strong language to condemn the references designs, because it might look silly if he has to change his tune about recommending the 290/x in a followup article.

It seems it's going to happen. He cornered himself and he is damaging AT's name along the way.

 

[railven]

Suddenly, all of Ryan's complaints about the 290/x disappear. I hope he just didn't realize this when he used such strong language to condemn the references designs, because it might look silly if he has to change his tune about recommending the 290/x in a followup article.

I disagree, he's in his right to condemn the product based on acoustics. I'm not going to dig up the past as other's have, but as a reviewer if he finds the acoustics are unbearable, he can state that, and let the audience know. The data is in the charts and the reader will determine if they agree or not.

With a different cooler, the product is different and he won't be changing his tune since he'll be following with his initial review "it was too loud before, but custom coolers rectified the issue." There is no back tracking and he's true to his review.

But if the card still has an "uber" switch I'd expect him to test it, and to keep the data he collects from it.

 

[Carfax83]

The issue isn't the review, it's the stated policy.

How is that unreasonable? Anandtech's policy has always been to test products at their default settings, and Uber mode obviously isn't the default setting.

There is tremendous room for performance enhancement with computer hardware, we all know that. Should Anandtech account for them all?

Of course not, that would be ridiculous.

If they should test using Uber mode as default, then they should also test NVidia hardware with higher fan speeds as well, since they have the capability.

 

[Teizo]

I don't think you are grasping the difference between Quiet mode & Uber mode, as you are relating it to overclocking. Overclocking is changing the settings to exceed the advertised performance, such as cpu or memory speed. I realize you know this. I only note it so I can explain the contrast. Uber mode allows the card to REACH ITS ADVERTISED SPEED/PERFORMANCE. It is in no way overclocking. Both cards have an advertised max speed.

I don't buy that one bit. Uber Mode is indeed an 'overclocked' type mode for the 290X because it helps keep the 290X from throttling.

The fact that the 290X can't maintain it's advertised clock speeds in it's regular, default, mode is proof of this.

I'm not chastising AMD for doing this, but the whole idea that Ryan tested the cards on different terms is just a bunch of cry baby butt hurt drama queen teenage ignorant stupidity. If those aren't enough adjectives, it would be easy for me to come up with more.

Should have come up with less. Infraction issued for inflammatory language
-Elfear

 

[Vesku]

I disagree, he's in his right to condemn the product based on acoustics. I'm not going to dig up the past as other's have, but as a reviewer if he finds the acoustics are unbearable, he can state that, and let the audience know. The data is in the charts and the reader will determine if they agree or not.

With a different cooler, the product is different and he won't be changing his tune since he'll be following with his initial review "it was too loud before, but custom coolers rectified the issue." There is no back tracking and he's true to his review.

But if the card still has an "uber" switch I'd expect him to test it, and to keep the data he collects from it.

Stating that he thinks it is loud, sure. Ranting about it, not so great for a technical review.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Better stop testing cellphones at anandtech because you have to press a button to turn themon . The audacity of phone manufacturers expecting such taxing work out of people.

 

[raghu78]

Better stop testing cellphones at anandtech because you have to press a button to turn themon . The audacity of phone manufacturers expecting such taxing work out of people.

techreport and hardocp had balanced takes on the R9 290 series cards. they clearly pointed out the cooler could be better. but also said its not very loud even at uber mode 55% fan speed.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/07/nvidia_geforce_gtx_780_ti_video_card_review/8

"All of these factors are hot topics, pun intended, for today's graphics cards. We knew the operational temperature of 95c would be a shocker to everyone on the Radeon R9 290X. We expressed this concern to AMD and AMD ensures us that this is the intended operation of the Radeon R9 290X.

AMD gave us two fan modes on the R9 290X. On one hand we have "Quiet Mode" with its 40% fan RPM cap. On the other hand we can have a louder, but better gaming experience, with "Uber Mode" using a 55% RPM fan cap. These modes have fueled a lot of debate and a lot of FUD. Using 40% Quiet Mode, the fan is fairly quiet. With Uber Mode’s 55% the sound profile becomes more debatable. We would call Uber Mode moderately loud, yes you can hear it, but it is not annoying loud. Manually setting a 65%+ fan cap, the reference cooling solution is very loud and will likely a agitate many users. We are running the R9 290X in Uber Mode for the review today. In Uber Mode this reference-cooled R9 290X is no doubt louder than the other cards, but to refer to it as a "jet engine" at these speeds is not close to a fair comparison. We have no issues with gaming with the R9 290 in Uber Mode sitting next to us on an open test bench."

AT forgot that AMD is charging a price of USD 550 for the R9 290X and just USD 400 for R9 290. slap a custom cooler on R9 290X and you are still USD 100 below GTX 780 Ti price. the gap is avg 5 - 7% at 1440p when you look at a number of reviews. and with custom cooler its quieter than gtx 780 ti :thumbsup:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1437634/installation-guide-tips-of-rev-2-icy-vision-on-r9-290x
http://www.overclock.net/t/1439731/bored-of-waiting-for-none-ref-290x-check-this-simple-cheap-fix

 

[Teizo]

Should have come up with less. Infraction issued for inflammatory language
-Elfear

I should have stated more, because that is what it is. Don't care if panties get in a bunch over it. Calling out Ryan like this because they don't like the results is stupid.

Warning issued for moderator callout.
-- stahlhart

 

[crisium]

I think it's quite clear that if you had to (for whatever reason?) only include one mode for the 290X that it would be better to include Uber since most enthusiasts will chose this mode for playing games. There is no room for minterpretation: enthusiasts that buy the 290X reference will game in Uber mode most of the time. Does anyone actually disagree? Honestly?

Now, I don't mind seeing both Quiet and Uber. For the reader, this is more data and is better. But I understand that the reviewer is a busy man. But, choosing only one mode, and picking the mode least likely to be used by enthusiast gamers? Wha?

Now about that 290 review:

More importantly, I think there's too much personal feelings coming out here. Ryan demonstrated rather openly that he feels a product being louder than its competition is all that matters. Ryan thinks sound is ALL THAT MATTERS. I can't wrap my head around this. AMD offers a solution that is $100 cheaper than the 780 and wins on performance. But instead of it being a debate about the values of price-to-performance vs loudness, Ryan makes a harsh and extreme judgement: you cannot buy the referene 290. It is too loud to own, regardless of your case, regardless if you use headphones, regardless if you plan to use the $100 savings to invest in liquid or nonreference cooling. It is untenable as a purchase because Ryan, personally, has strong feelings about noise. Strong feelings that were not there in 2010.

The fact that there's an entire thread about bias is telling. I honestly don't think it's anti-AMD bias. Although it's odd since he was fine with it in 2010, I think it's just a sound thing. For whatever reason, the man has VERY strong feelings about noise. Ryan is evoking a great deal of emotion in his anti-290 series actions, and it stems from some kind of traumatic experience with noise - something that has happened in the past 3 years.

I would just ask him to consider that he has these strong feelings, and to try to seek a more balanced approach.

 

[TerryMathews]

I don't buy that one bit. Uber Mode is indeed an 'overclocked' type mode for the 290X because it helps keep the 290X from throttling.

The fact that the 290X can't maintain it's advertised clock speeds in it's regular, default, mode is proof of this.

I'm not chastising AMD for doing this, but the whole idea that Ryan tested the cards on different terms is just a bunch of cry baby butt hurt drama queen teenage ignorant stupidity. If those aren't enough adjectives, it would be easy for me to come up with more.

Should have come up with less. Infraction issued for inflammatory language
-Elfear

Fail. You can't RMA a card for failing to meet your over clocking expectations. You can RMA a 290X that doesn't run according to spec in Uber mode.

WTF is an "overclocked type mode" anyway? By definition, uber can't be over clocked as it is manufacturer supported. Calling it over clocked is the same as calling Turbo mode for Intel over clocked.

I should have stated more, because that is what it is. Don't care if panties get in a bunch over it. Calling out Ryan like this because they don't like the results is stupid.

And the fail keeps on coming. You must have a reading problem, because the call outs are over this ridiculous review policy. The "results" are a byproduct and only one review is affected so far.



Personal attacks are against forum rules.

-Rvenger

 

[Owls]

Oh I don't know. I just got done reading a controversy at tomshardware that was picked up by probably 30 other web news outlets that is based directly on the terrible cooler on the 290 series. And then, I see noise mentioned as a negative in 100% of every web review of the 290 series. And then practically every PC enthusiast forum has pages upon pages of people complaining about the noise and how they wouldn't consider a 290 series card because of noise. Says who? Indeed. Was all of this entirely, 100% preventable? Yes, it could have been prevented - No throttling, no noise complaints, no user experience complaints, no conspiracy theories about reviews at AT.. Preventable. Yes, yes it was. But wasn't.

But, let's forget all that. AMD is a victim here, right? I mean AMD didn't need to prevent all of this with a better design.

I don't know where to begin. Strawman arguments and not understanding that other cards in the same generation of the GTX 480 were quieter but didn't perform as well. Essentially, a R290x of its time but you seem to ironically gloss over that. I don't understand the need to defend AT's review here. One could say it was terrible or disingenuous and neither would be incorrect assessments. I think this thread can be wrapped up. The mods are in serious denial regarding the review and while this probably won't blow up to the same level of the GTX 460 FTW review it has nonetheless damaged the credibility of this site severely. What a shame.

 

[blackened23]

I should have stated more, because that is what it is. Don't care if panties get in a bunch over it. Calling out Ryan like this because they don't like the results is stupid.

FWIW, I agree with you. There are some people that feel AMD can do no wrong though. I mean, it all goes back to the fact that with a more versatile shroud, that AMD would not have the Tom's controversy. AMD would not have uber mode noise. AMD would not have silent mode throttling. You basically CANT use silent mode on the 290X because the card performs way worse....

But AMD apparently does no wrong despite all of this. It's like, blame the reviewer, don't blame AMD for their design failure. It really is ridiculous to see their bone headed design decisions being defended. None of this controversy would be a thing and AMD wouldn't be in headlines now for throttling if they had MADE A GOOD COOLER. Christ. But that's not AMD's fault right? It's like i'm reading post after post of AMD being made the victim when this entire nonsense is 100% their fault for not improving their shroud over the 5870-6970-7970 shroud. This is AMD's fault. Not Ryan Smith's fault. Period. If you want a glowing review, design the GPU accordingly and don't focus on only the raw frames per second - the GPU landscape has changed, and user experience matters. Maybe that will somehow get through to AMD but I doubt it.

I used AMD shrouds from the 5870 to the 7970. IT isn't quiet at 55%. And to prevent throttling you realistically need a 60-65% maximum fancap while in uber mode. That is definitely not quiet. But I know someone is going to jump down my throat because AMD never does anything wrong. Whatever. And just to be clear, I think the 290 is a hell of a high performing card and a heck of a value - but it is saddled with a pitiful cooler that forces you to run it loud and hot for maximum performance. Had AMD made a good cooler, none of this would even be up for discussion. There would be no BIOS switch and we could potentially get uber mode performance with silent mode acoustics. But AMD didn't want to do that?

 

[crisium]

You basically CANT use silent mode on the 290X because the card performs way worse....

I call BS. The 290X, silent mode only, launched still cheaper than the 780 and matched its performance.

So Nvidia dropped prices. The 290X now costs about the same (slightly more) as a 780, and performans the same (slightly more) than the 780 in quiet mode.

What's the problem?

 

[blackened23]

I call BS. The 290X, silent mode only, launched still cheaper than the 780 and matched its performance.

So Nvidia dropped prices. The 290X now costs about the same as a 780, and performance the same in silent mode.

What's the problem?

The problem is objective benchmarks of the 290X after a warm up period shows a 15% loss in framerate from silent mode throttling. PCPer tested just this. In quiet mode, it isn't uncommon for the card to throttle to 727mhz and lose 20% performance in the process.

I think the price drops are great. But the product isn't well balanced, and that is a fact - the 290 performs amazingly well in uber mode/high fan speed modes, and AMD could have created a cooler which didn't necessitate high fan speeds to prevent throttling. See what i'm getting at? You don't get an option for silent mode operation with the 290X unless you want to lose 15% performance after a warm in period of 15 minutes or so. AMD could have and should have prevented this with a better shroud.

I'm well aware that some people don't care about noise, and some will happily just use 55% fan 24/7. That's great. Like I said the GPU performs AMAZING and is a hell of a value, I won't deny that. But I don't like having to compromise acoustic performance for maximum GPU performance - AMD should have done better in this respect. And it kinda pains me to say that because I wanted the 290 series to be the grand slam for AMD, instead we have this internet controversy everywhere and deservedly so. AMD could have prevented all of the controversy by focusing more on the end user experience, but they obviously didn't want to do that.

 

[iiiankiii]

Noise is a big issue when you're too focused on it. I find that when I play games, the action packed fun I'm having block most of the noise out. Add in the in game sound, you can shout from across the room and I won't even care. However, when I start benchmarking and stress testing my GPUs, every little vibration/ noise bug the crap out of me.
I think that might be the reason why some reviewers are hyper critical of the noise. They are too busy benchmarking and not playing. Rightfully so. That's their job.

 

[crisium]

I'm well aware that some people don't care about noise, and some will happily just use 55% fan 24/7. That's great. Like I said the GPU performs AMAZING and is a hell of a value, I won't deny that. But I don't like having to compromise acoustic performance for maximum GPU performance - AMD should have done better in this respect. And it kinda pains me to say that because I wanted the 290 series to be the grand slam for AMD, instead we have this internet controversy everywhere and deservedly so. AMD could have prevented all of the controversy by focusing more on the end user experience, but they obviously didn't want to do that.

You're right, completely.

See how you value both sides: enthusiasts looking for performance value for their dollar vs. enthusiasts wanting a lower noise. There is now a compromise about going AMD over Nvidia. You save cash, but you gotta be prepared to eat the noise sandwich. But you acknowledge that it's still a good purchase for those who can accept the noise.

Why couldn't Ryan do this?

"The Radeon 290 is untenable as purchase."

He did not consider anything besides noise. Once you pass a certain dB barrier designated by this man, a card can no longer be purchased.

That's the problem here - AMD dropped the ball and it introduces a debate that a consumer must make. Unless you are Anandtech's Ryan, in which case the debate was settled rather early: the 290 is too loud to buy - PERIOD. And the 290X, because it is also too loud in Uber mode, should only be evaluated for the Quiet mode.

He is being too judgmental. And like I said 2 of my posts ago, he needs to acknowledge that his personal feelings about sound do not apply to all (or even most) enthusiasts and that he should pause for thought before making sweeping judgements (no one can buy a 290, and Uber mode is irrelevant).

 

[VulgarDisplay]

The problem is objective benchmarks of the 290X after a warm up period shows a 15% loss in framerate from silent mode throttling. PCPer tested just this. In quiet mode, it isn't uncommon for the card to throttle to 727mhz and lose 20% performance in the process.

I think the price drops are great. But the product isn't well balanced, and that is a fact - the 290 performs amazingly well in uber mode/high fan speed modes, and AMD could have created a cooler which didn't necessitate high fan speeds to prevent throttling. See what i'm getting at? You don't get an option for silent mode operation with the 290X unless you want to lose 15% performance after a warm in period of 15 minutes or so. AMD could have and should have prevented this with a better shroud.

I'm well aware that some people don't care about noise, and some will happily just use 55% fan 24/7. That's great. Like I said the GPU performs AMAZING and is a hell of a value, I won't deny that. But I don't like having to compromise acoustic performance for maximum GPU performance - AMD should have done better in this respect. And it kinda pains me to say that because I wanted the 290 series to be the grand slam for AMD, instead we have this internet controversy everywhere and deservedly so. AMD could have prevented all of the controversy by focusing more on the end user experience, but they obviously didn't want to do that.

Every reviewer that heated the card up prior to testing still showed it matching the gtx780 in quiet mode. The throttling is real, so is the speeds that were reported. Imagine this card when it's able to run wide open.

 

[Teizo]

WTF is an "overclocked type mode" anyway? By definition, uber can't be over clocked as it is manufacturer supported. Calling it over clocked is the same as calling Turbo mode for Intel over clocked.

Elric from TOT states that is what it is, or at least that is what he calls it. I tend to agree with him. It is a higher speed mode, basically. AMD is just being coy about it. He did do his review in Uber Mode, but said he did so because he doesn't think gamers will really desire to run the card in quiet mode. That still doesn't change what the mode really is....in disguise.

Agree with it, disagree with it...it's up to you...but here is the vid I am referencing. Skip to 6 minutes-ish to get his take:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXd9xyktBBA&feature=share&list=UUNJP0oF6k62xA_qhCLfwI-Q

Every reviewer that heated the card up prior to testing still showed it matching the gtx780 in quiet mode. The throttling is real, so is the speeds that were reported. Imagine this card when it's able to run wide open.

There is a report from Sweclockers saying that no aftermarket cards have been announced yet from AIB's due to shortages (although this does conflict with the ASUS ROG report). There have been aftermarket 290s announced, but roll out will not happen en mass until early next year supposedly (according to the article). There may be some scattered ones before then, but supply will be limited. If that is so, that is unfortunate because this card with a really good cooler will perform really well. It is getting held back drastically by the cooler that is on it right now.

 

[R0H1T]

FWIW, I agree with you. There are some people that feel AMD can do no wrong though. I mean, it all goes back to the fact that with a more versatile shroud, that AMD would not have the Tom's controversy. AMD would not have uber mode noise. AMD would not have silent mode throttling. You basically CANT use silent mode on the 290X because the card performs way worse....

But AMD apparently does no wrong despite all of this. It's like, blame the reviewer, don't blame AMD for their design failure. It really is ridiculous to see their bone headed design decisions being defended. None of this controversy would be a thing and AMD wouldn't be in headlines now for throttling if they had MADE A GOOD COOLER. Christ. But that's not AMD's fault right? It's like i'm reading post after post of AMD being made the victim when this entire nonsense is 100% their fault for not improving their shroud over the 5870-6970-7970 shroud. This is AMD's fault. Not Ryan Smith's fault. Period. If you want a glowing review, design the GPU accordingly and don't focus on only the raw frames per second - the GPU landscape has changed, and user experience matters. Maybe that will somehow get through to AMD but I doubt it.

I used AMD shrouds from the 5870 to the 7970. IT isn't quiet at 55%. And to prevent throttling you realistically need a 60-65% maximum fancap while in uber mode. That is definitely not quiet. But I know someone is going to jump down my throat because AMD never does anything wrong. Whatever. And just to be clear, I think the 290 is a hell of a high performing card and a heck of a value - but it is saddled with a pitiful cooler that forces you to run it loud and hot for maximum performance. Had AMD made a good cooler, none of this would even be up for discussion. There would be no BIOS switch and we could potentially get uber mode performance with silent mode acoustics. But AMD didn't want to do that?

Why don't you say it loud that you're not willing to pay 50$ more for a better cooler on the stock 290x & please it's just ridiculous that a better cooler would cost them only 3$ because it sure ain't true!

So instead of this shadow boxing & running around in circles why don't you admit that 290x at 600$, lets say 10 degrees cooler & 10dB quieter, is not a VFM proposition for you & others who blame the 290 in the same way when it's pitted against the 780

 

[exar333]

http://www.nvnews.net/images/news/200404/bfg_asylum_fx_5800u.jpg

Bring's back memories...