Spin Off: AT's Testing Methods & Uber Mode

[krumme]

All of this could have been avoided Soooooooooooo easily. But that would involve not being a self destructive entity. AMD apparently does not fall into that category. I have to agree with Blackened23 in that AMD will get no sympathy from me due to their decision. It's not simply the cooler they chose, but that they actually chose it and thought it was good enough. Good enough is not enough in this business and you have to exploit any and all advantages. Why didn't they? I am utterly dumbfounded that they would consciously make that decision.

Read above. It have nothing to do with the cooler. It could have been perfect. Is it so difficult to understand? Read the thread from page 1 post one and you wouldnt stand here posting OT.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Even 450. The cards perform and 450 with a superior cooling solution is WELL worth it. I have no problem paying for a good product.

Well then you should be ecstatic that the dreaded cheap cooler will result in you being able to buy an aftermarket 290 for even less than you would have if not for the cheap cooler keeping reference price down.
Again tell me the downside for the consumer willing to wait for aftermarket cards?

 

[Wall Street]

Ryan definitely seems to come into reviews with a prejudice in favor of nVidia cards. A good example is the Titan review. When discussing gamers who would consider the Titan he said:

Back in the land of consumer gaming though, we have to contend with the fact that unlike any big-GPU card before it, Titan is purposely removed from the price/performance curve. NVIDIA has long wanted to ape Intel’s ability to have an extreme/luxury product at the very top end of the consumer product stack, and with Titan they’re going ahead with that.

The end result is that Titan is targeted at a different demographic than GTX 580 or other such cards, a demographic that has the means and the desire to purchase such a product. Being used to seeing the best video cards go for less we won’t call this a great development for the competitive landscape, but ultimately this is far from the first luxury level computer part, so there’s not much else to say other than that this is a product for a limited audience. But what that limited audience is getting is nothing short of an amazing card.

Is that the most scathing thing he can say about pricing a GPU at $1000 for gamers? Joke is on the early adopters because you can now pick up a GK110 for $500 about 9 months later. He practically makes it sounds like you should be proud to spend $1000 and be part of the "limited audience" who got ripped off on a "luxury level computer part" Titan.
The controversy in these reviews isn't the content of the review which is largely driven off the charts, the problem is that Ryan can couch negatives in soft euphemisms for nVidia but takes the gloves of when it comes to AMD.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yes, let's base our judgements on what is linked on the internet. We shall all be amazingly muscled yet skinny super model billionaires in no time.

GTX 580 was basically just 1 GPU generation ago, actual gamers haven't suddenly decided that quiet is the most important attribute of a GPU. We don't see the market dominated by factory water blocked cards, do we?

The issue isn't that the conclusion was "the 290 is louder than Y and Z" it's that there was an actual tirade, as in extremely repetitive negative statements, against it. Top that off with now some questions about whether "Uber" mode results will even be included in the future and you can see it's not about trying to find a victim but about whether this attitude make sense in GPU reviews.

When high end products have for the past generation of GPUs, come with high end cooling systems as found on the 690 and Titan and now the 780 and 780ti that keep the temps down while also not spinning up to high noise levels things change. Back when the GTX 580 came around the high end cards did not have the same type of design. More is expected now for a $500++ card.

Read above. It have nothing to do with the cooler. It could have been perfect. Is it so difficult to understand? Read the thread from page 1 post one and you wouldnt stand here posting OT.

Uber mode and by extension the terrible cooling solution is part of the topic. Heck it's right there in the thread title. It's also the reason everyone is up in arms about how certain reviewers do their testing.

 

[SiliconWars]

You can't know that for sure, and YES it is about the bad reference cooler. It's actually all about it. Don't know why you won't accept that.

It doesn't matter what we know for sure or not, what matters is what is possible.

AMD has a turbo technology that allows them to set clocks and fan speeds and get various degrees of performance and noise from that. It doesn't matter how good or bad the cooler is, all that matters is that the best performance results will be thrown out by Anandtech simply because it has a switch between modes.

It has literally NOTHING to do with the cooler.

 

[Will Robinson]

When R9 290X arrives with aftermarket cooling and unlocked voltages I think 780Ti is going to struggle to beat it.Everyone's gonna overclock it to see what it can do.
The Hawaii chip seems to have loads of power,keep it cool and ramp up the clocks till it glows.
780Ti is Seven Hundred dollars.
It may struggle to be even 10% faster.

 

[blackened23]

best performance results will be thrown out

It has literally NOTHING to do with the cooler.

So you're saying that the best performance results has NOTHING to do with the cooler? These two statements do not add up. FFS, I still do not get why anyone defends this. I realize that some folks do not care about noise, but when you have a situation where any silent mode requires a sacrifice in performance - that isn't kosher.

I could overclock my former 7970s all day long without having to use 55%+ fan. I could do it at 40% fan which was quiet. You certainly can't attain maximum performance on the 290 series with 40% fan which IMHO is a problem that needs to be fixed with a "B" revision of the 290 series and an improved shroud. For 400$ the 290 is still the value performance king with 47% fan, but I bet the vast majority of users here would be just fine with a 30$ higher cost and a more versatile cooler. It isn't JUST about price. User experience matters. AMD needs to understand this, and right now they don't.

 

[SiliconWars]

When R9 290X arrives with aftermarket cooling and unlocked voltages I think 780Ti is going to struggle to beat it.Everyone's gonna overclock it to see what it can do.
The Hawaii chip seems to have loads of power,keep it cool and ramp up the clocks till it glows.
780Ti is Seven Hundred dollars.
It may struggle to be even 10% faster.

After market coolers might have quiet and uber modes as well. This is the point - people saying it's about the bad cooler are missing it big time.

We might see after market version up to 1.3 GHz, but quiet mode will drop more often to 1 GHz or so. This is the point, it's not about the craptastic cooler on the reference design - it's about throwing out the best performance results because of a switch.

 

[railven]

Yeah poor us... instead of an aftermarket 290 costing$470+ we'll get one for $420 range. I really don't see a downside for those willing to wait for aftermarket coolers.

Nothing wrong with waiting. Shoot I'm waiting, just to see what comes out but I've pretty much already picked my path (and it doesn't involve AMD.)

Not trying to steer this more off topic, the cooler sucks and we deserve to know it sucks, the scores should reflect the suckage of the cooler but the awesomeness of the card.

 

[Abwx]

After market coolers might have quiet and uber modes as well. This is the point - people saying it's about the bad cooler are missing it big time.

We might see after market version up to 1.3 GHz, but quiet mode will drop more often to 1 GHz or so. This is the point, it's not about the craptastic cooler on the reference design - it's about throwing out the best performance results because of a switch.

Actualy the 780ti is, barely, faster than a 290X assuming
it doesnt throttle at all , otherwise , as shown by hardware.fr
the 290X is faster in all HQ resolutions with a tie at 1080p,
i guess that some will be surprised once STOCK 290X using
just slightly better cooler are released.

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/912-22/recapitulatif-performances.html

 

[SiliconWars]

So you're saying that the best performance results has NOTHING to do with the cooler? These two statements do not add up.

Imagine this (unlikely) scenario.

One of AMD's partners brings out an aftermarket 290X with quiet and uber modes. Quiet mode actually only drops the noise levels by a decibel, but drops clocks by 15%.

We're now at the stage where the fastest results are being thrown out because of a single decibel, which by most accounts is impossible to tell the difference from. Technically the card is doing exactly what it's meant to do, but the cooler is only capable of going 1 decibel lower by dropping the clocks by 15%.

So you could have the idiotic situation where the card would be evaluated at it's worst performance even though there is no gain in noise. Obviously this is an extreme example but the point should be clear - the bad reference cooler doesn't actually matter because the best results will be thrown out regardless of what cooler the card comes with.

 

[GaiaHunter]

You get what you pay for. Those of us unhappy with the current cooling solution can wait. That probably isn't what AMD wants to hear and with Nvidia making it harder to wait (dat price cut!) it points out AMD's flaw in the cooling solution.

Even though I'm openly against that cooler, I want the data on it to be used when comparing it to any other card, and more so when custom cooler cards come out because then we can really see just how atrocious that cooler is.

AMD could have had the golden boy card if they strapped a better cooler, or heck why even make reference? Just let AIBs make custom designs I'm sure Sapphire would have provided a few Dual-Xs for review samples.

Except I get the impression both NVIDIA and AMD sales departments believe that the majority of the enthusiast market that is up fro grabs (those that don't love/hate a company over the other) care about absolute performance and/or price/performance.

From what I've seen the GTX780/780Ti aren't convincingly the fastest cards in the market.

 

[railven]

Except I get the impression both NVIDIA and AMD sales departments believe that the majority of the enthusiast market that is up fro grabs (those that don't love/hate a company over the other) care about absolute performance and/or price/performance.

From what I've seen the GTX780/780Ti aren't convincingly the fastest cards in the market.

Try not to steer this off topic, AMD/NV what's best for them (at our expense) and journalist should be putting each product through their course and NOT discard any data REGARDLESS how they feel about it.

By all means, add an editorial with your "this thing is so loud I can't recommend it" but don't turn around and later say "we threw away the Uber scores because frankly that isn't out of the box performance."

 

[krumme]

Nothing wrong with waiting. Shoot I'm waiting, just to see what comes out but I've pretty much already picked my path (and it doesn't involve AMD.)

Not trying to steer this more off topic, the cooler sucks and we deserve to know it sucks, the scores should reflect the suckage of the cooler but the awesomeness of the card.

Excactly and choosing to test the card in only silent will prevent that.

 

[blackened23]

Try not to steer this off topic, AMD/NV what's best for them (at our expense) and journalist should be putting each product through their course and NOT discard any data REGARDLESS how they feel about it.

By all means, add an editorial with your "this thing is so loud I can't recommend it" but don't turn around and later say "we threw away the Uber scores because frankly that isn't out of the box performance."

Yeah. I don't see a problem with including "uber" mode numbers at all; a lot of users will happily use the fan at 55% and won't care - but that is entirely up to the reviewer. Their prerogative, even though *I* don't have an issue with uber mode numbers being presented. Then again, the entire situation could have been prevented entirely - why do we even need uber vs silent mode? Just make a better cooler and the problem is solved without a BIOS switch. It's just too bad that this controversy has to even be a thing, it could have been entirely avoided, you know? That's what I don't get.

I can see both sides of the argument here in terms of presenting uber mode numbers. By the flip side of the coin, why is this even an "issue" in the first place. Jeez.

 

[railven]

Excactly and choosing to test the card in only silent will prevent that.

I think what upsets me more so about AT's article is they already tested the card in Uber mode and have a set of data to reflect it. But they threw that data out because it isn't out of the box performance according to them.

It is a feature of a card and a data set you already have, why are you going to remove your labor and a feature because of a software/hardware switch?

If you don't want to use the data set, don't include it because then someone reading your article looks at ALL the data you provided then reads your conclusion and scratches their head. (Like I did.)

 

[Abwx]

Except I get the impression both NVIDIA and AMD sales departments believe that the majority of the enthusiast market that is up fro grabs (those that don't love/hate a company over the other) care about absolute performance and/or price/performance.

From what I've seen the GTX780/780Ti aren't convincingly the fastest cards in the market.

And they are not , although they could be with a cautiously
doctored review.

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/912-22/recapitulatif-performances.html

 

[Janooo]

I think what upsets me more so about AT's article is they already tested the card in Uber mode and have a set of data to reflect it. But they threw that data out because it isn't out of the box performance according to them.

It is a feature of a card and a data set you already have, why are you going to remove your labor and a feature because of a software/hardware switch?

If you don't want to use the data set, don't include it because then someone reading your article looks at ALL the data you provided then reads your conclusion and scratches their head. (Like I did.)

This.
To claim that Ti is faster card based on ignoring of the Uber mode is dishonest. People will run the 290X in Uber mode now and even more with better coolers later. They deserve to know the truth.
The final words page is shameful in this regard.

 

[Majcric]

All this talk about Uber/Quiet mode< i don't really care. Can we please get to max oc 290x to max oc GTX 780ti and see who the King really is...

Of course, we're still waiting the Aftermarket cooler for the 290x and not sure if Nvidia will even release one for its high end product.

 

[KCfromNC]

How is that unreasonable? Anandtech's policy has always been to test products at their default settings, and Uber mode obviously isn't the default setting.

Where can I buy a 290 which defaults to a 34% fan limit, as tested here by Anandtech - http://www.anandtech.com/show/7481/the-amd-radeon-r9-290-review/15?

If there's now an "only test at defaults" policy it hasn't been around for that long.

 

[Abwx]

Where can I buy a 290 which defaults to a 34% fan limit, as tested here by Anandtech - http://www.anandtech.com/show/7481/the-amd-radeon-r9-290-review/15?

If there's now an "only test at defaults" policy it hasn't been around for that long.

Unleashed the beast would be too much devastating...

 

[Imouto]

So the bad praxis reviewing is because of AMD. Dear frigging TFSM I didn't see this coming.

"She was raped because she was dressed like she was looking for it."

 

[Techhog]

They show overclocking separately and they are trying to recreate an overclock that would be expected out of the box without BIOS messing and switch flipping.

You seem upset because they aren't showing the 780ti in a bad light. It's a good card and faster than the competition as many had predicted. Worth the price is another matter. However, there is no bias going on here. I think Ryan is doing a great job overall with these reviews. If all testing was done in uber mode you'd have some guy whining all day about how come his card is slower than the review said since he has to physically flip the switch and had no clue. Can't win

... Then test and acknowledge both. Wouldn't GPU Boost 2.0 face a similar problem anyway?

 

[KCfromNC]

So the bad praxis reviewing is because of AMD.

Nah, lots of it is coming directly from NV.

" When discussing its new product with us, Nvidia took some time to explain how the 780 Ti differs from the competition. Some of what they offered in this context was FUD about the variable performance of the 290X cards in the market."

"There's also been quite a bit of discussion about why the R9 290X's PowerTune limit is a relatively toasty 94°C and why its cooler generates so much noise. Much of that discussion has been focused on the GPU's power draw and the amount of resulting heat to be removed—and whether AMD's stock cooler is good at doing its job—but Nvidia offers a slightly different take."

http://techreport.com/review/25611/nvidia-geforce-gtx-780-ti-graphics-card-reviewed/2

 

[krumme]

Yeah. I don't see a problem with including "uber" mode numbers at all; a lot of users will happily use the fan at 55% and won't care - but that is entirely up to the reviewer. Their prerogative, even though *I* don't have an issue with uber mode numbers being presented. Then again, the entire situation could have been prevented entirely - why do we even need uber vs silent mode? Just make a better cooler and the problem is solved without a BIOS switch. It's just too bad that this controversy has to even be a thing, it could have been entirely avoided, you know? That's what I don't get.

I can see both sides of the argument here in terms of presenting uber mode numbers. By the flip side of the coin, why is this even an "issue" in the first place. Jeez.

Ofcource it could have been prevented. We dont disagree here.

What we object is the choice not to include a factory setting in the review that is supported by warrenty in future reviews. A setting all will use.

Secondly one can argue that such decision also prevents new technology and user choises. If the card wasnt loud of 55% it would perhaps be more obvious this is actually good functionality for the users.

But we dont get it in the future. Stupid reviewdecisions eg thg 40% prevents that. Actually i think its because of agressive nv marketing we end in this 290 situation.

And btw. The switch situation is just beside the bias about cf vs sli.

As said the floral rosy grease Ryan wraps around the 780ti - is way off compared to the harch freaking tone in the 290 review.

Bias.