Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[dnavas]

Threadripper 7000 'Storm Peak' leaked, looks like arrival earlier than expected?

I'm hearing that Zen4 is being bundled with RAM, so, something is happening with desktop sales. I like that AMD kept Zen4 prices mostly reasonable, but maybe even that wasn't enough? I guess people are looking for a deal. This shouldn't be a surprise with Intel coming out a mere month later; it's sensible for most people to just wait, but the motherboard tiering and pricing does seem to indicate that someone anticipated higher sales than I would have bet on.

Perhaps this is an attempt to move the chips to the server/Pro side? What I'm hearing is that purchasing plans for hardware are down, software is up, so I'm not sure Pro will move in quantity either. Maybe it's time for another half-hearted attempt to curry favor with non-Pro TR enthusiasts? Y'know, the market that's been starved for years now.... [tried but failed to keep the sarcasm at bay]

Could be interesting times. Oddly, I'm more interested to see if we get V3000 based products, though I'm surprised that that one doesn't seem to have an igpu (wat?) and I guess that's off-topic for here anyway.

More on-topic -- I'm surprised to see that 4x25Gbps isn't standard yet, and we're still playing with 4x10. Probably not the right forum audience, but :shrug:

 

[DrMrLordX]

There is no Indication that Intel will further segment their Workstation Line up in "Extreme"

Maybe, but we are veering a bit off-topic for this thread aren't we?

I'm hearing that Zen4 is being bundled with RAM, so, something is happening with desktop sales.

There's still plenty of outlets just selling the chips on their own. Hopefully it stays that way. Last thing anyone needs is RAM that they don't want.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Looks like after the initial gotta have it crew, sales fell off hard. 13th gen launching soon, expensive boards, and expectations of 3D not far off have spoiled the party. Hopefully price cuts happen sooner rather than later, and cheaper board show up soon.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

EDIT: Moving content to the builders thread where it is likely more applicable.

 

[maddie]

Looks like after the initial gotta have it crew, sales fell off hard. 13th gen launching soon, expensive boards, and expectations of 3D not far off have spoiled the party. Hopefully price cuts happen sooner rather than later, and cheaper board show up soon.

Needs and wants.

This is what the economic troubles look like in the real world. Incoming GPUs are heading for the same problems. Some here can stick their heads in the sand and wait for the money printer, but all sales projections are going in the toilet soon. A 30% drop by a top three semi company.

It has been confirmed that Samsung Electronics, the world's No. 1 memory semiconductor company, has lowered its semiconductor sales forecast for the second half of the year by more than 30%.

[단독] 삼성, 반도체 매출 전망 32% 낮췄다

[단독] 삼성, 반도체 매출 전망 32% 낮췄다, 메모리 반도체 빙하기 시작됐다 회사 실적 전망치, 4월보다 20조원 안팎 줄어든 듯 D램값 1년새 30% 급락 경기 침체로 수요 줄어

www.hankyung.com

 

[In2Photos]

Looks like after the initial gotta have it crew, sales fell off hard. 13th gen launching soon, expensive boards, and expectations of 3D not far off have spoiled the party. Hopefully price cuts happen sooner rather than later, and cheaper board show up soon.

As much as I want a new system I like value in addition to the performance. I also like options. Right now I don't think AM5 offers either. Boards, RAM, ATX 3.0 PSUs and pcie5 drives are all lacking. And GPU options still aren't quite there for me yet. So I'll keep waiting with hopes that by Christmas things start to come into focus.

But it's hard every time I see a review of the new CPUs.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

@maddie

That's a great point. Everyone that needed a PC bought one in '20-'21. The economy is also now another major factor.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

As much as I want a new system I like value in addition to the performance. I also like options. Right now I don't think AM5 offers either. Boards, RAM, ATX 3.0 PSUs and pcie5 drives are all lacking. And GPU options still aren't quite there for me yet. So I'll keep waiting with hopes that by Christmas things start to come into focus.

But it's hard every time I see a review of the new CPUs.

jonnyGURU says not to sweat the ATX 3.0 stuff -

 

[In2Photos]

Different coolers tested on the 7600X with stock settings and 1 PBO test.

 

[tamz_msc]

5.6 Ghz All Core OC kicking all sorts of behinds...!

View attachment 68492


View attachment 68493

AMD Ryzen 5 7600X im Test: Fragwürdig hohe TDP vereint mit bester Effizienz [UPDATE mit OC/Eco-Mode]

Auf dieser Seite beschäftigen wir uns mit dem Tuning und der spannenden Effizienz des 7600X und klären im Fazit, ob sich die Wahl für den kleinsten Zen-4-Prozessor als richtig herausstellt oder Sie lieber zu den größeren Varianten greifen sollten.

www.pcgameshardware.de

Hmm, very fair comparison - OC'd Zen 4 vs Stock Alder Lake. At 720p.

 

[Markfw]

Hmm, very fair comparison - OC'd Zen 4 vs Stock Alder Lake. At 720p.

It also had stock Zen 4, and still beat everything. But you would not know know fair if it hit you in the head. Trolls never do.

 

[tamz_msc]

It also had stock Zen 4, and still beat everything. But you would not know know fair if it hit you in the head. Trolls never do.

You have a serious problem with being objective when it comes to your favored brand. That graph had the 12900K at 4.9 GHz with DDR5-4400. That is not even stock performance - it's worse than stock. But of course, you would ignore it if something was staring right at your face.

 

[tamz_msc]

3dcenter's meta-review is up:

Applications:

Launch-Analyse AMD Ryzen 7000 (Seite 2) | 3DCenter.org

Freitag, 30. September 2022 / von Leonidas Zur Performance-Auswertung eingeladen wurde das komplette Portfolio von Ryzen 7000, zuzüglich der wichtigsten Modelle von Ryzen 5000 und Core i-12000. Wegen der Vielzahl an ausgewerteten

www.3dcenter.org

Gaming:

Launch-Analyse AMD Ryzen 7000 (Seite 3) | 3DCenter.org

Freitag, 30. September 2022 / von Leonidas Die Menge an wertbaren Spiele-Benchmarks ist mit diesem Launch wie gesagt erfreulicherweise deutlich gewachsen: Sowohl setzen die Hardwaretester nunmehr größere Testfelder an, als auch

www.3dcenter.org

Summary:

Launch-Analyse AMD Ryzen 7000 (Seite 4) | 3DCenter.org

Freitag, 30. September 2022 / von Leonidas Mit den hochgehenden Power-Limits bei 3 von 4 Ryzen-7000-Prozessoren stellt sich natürlich die Frage nach dem realen Stromverbrauch unter verschiedenen Last-Szenarien. Die diesbezüglichen

www.3dcenter.org

 

[Markfw]

3dcenter's meta-review is up:

Applications:

Launch-Analyse AMD Ryzen 7000 (Seite 2) | 3DCenter.org

Freitag, 30. September 2022 / von Leonidas Zur Performance-Auswertung eingeladen wurde das komplette Portfolio von Ryzen 7000, zuzüglich der wichtigsten Modelle von Ryzen 5000 und Core i-12000. Wegen der Vielzahl an ausgewerteten

www.3dcenter.org

Gaming:

Launch-Analyse AMD Ryzen 7000 (Seite 3) | 3DCenter.org

Freitag, 30. September 2022 / von Leonidas Die Menge an wertbaren Spiele-Benchmarks ist mit diesem Launch wie gesagt erfreulicherweise deutlich gewachsen: Sowohl setzen die Hardwaretester nunmehr größere Testfelder an, als auch

www.3dcenter.org

And I have no idea what those say because they are not in English, and the charts are not clear as to what they are saying.

Try something in English. Keep trolling an AMD thread.....

 

[tamz_msc]

And I have no idea what those say because they are not in English, and the charts are not clear as to what they are saying.

Try something in English. Keep trolling and AMD thread.....

Like I said, you would not see something even if it stared right at your face. There is an option to translate in English right at the top. I'm not going to spoon-feed an adult.

 

[inf64]

It's crazy how 7700X offers ~90% of 12900K or the same as 12700K's application performance as per 3dcenter's aggregate index while having a tad higher gaming performance than both. It's amazing how with only 16 threads this chip keeps up with both AL parts that have 20 and 24T. 12700K currently costs the same on Newegg so the only thing keeping the price/performance ratio in intel's favor is the motherboard cost. I expect that b650 will trickle down in price once it launches so 7700X will be a better value. Couple that with insane options Zen 4 gives with PBO tweaking and AVX512 support, I think it will compete well even with 13th gen (unless intel goes crazy with prices and lower them more).

 

[DAPUNISHER]

It's crazy how 7700X offers ~90% of 12900K or the same as 12700K's application performance as per 3dcenter's aggregate index while having a tad higher gaming performance than both. It's amazing how with only 16 threads this chip keeps up with both AL parts that have 20 and 24T. 12700K currently costs the same on Newegg so the only thing keeping the price/performance ratio in intel's favor is the motherboard cost. I expect that b650 will trickle down in price once it launches so 7700X will be a better value. Couple that with insane options Zen 4 gives with PBO tweaking and AVX512 support, I think it will compete well even with 13th gen (unless intel goes crazy with prices and lower them more).

Microcenter is offering a free 32GB kit of 5600 with purchase. Reddit sub says if you already bought yours', speak to staff in store, they can make it retroactive. Probably don't want people returning the CPU and repurchasing since you are in the return window. That adds some real value, and hitting 6000 with it should be straight forward?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It's crazy how 7700X offers ~90% of 12900K or the same as 12700K's application performance as per 3dcenter's aggregate index while having a tad higher gaming performance than both. It's amazing how with only 16 threads this chip keeps up with both AL parts that have 20 and 24T.
.....

There is really nothing crazy about It.

When we compare 7700x vs 7950x, the difference is only 50% despite having 2x more cores.
Not all APPs can use so much threads, so CPUs with more threads than 7700x for example are at a disadvantage.

 

[inf64]

There is really nothing crazy about It.

When we compare 7700x vs 7950x, the difference is only 50% despite having 2x more cores.
Not all APPs can use so much threads, so CPUs with more threads than 7700x for example are at a disadvantage.

That index combines ST and MT performance, so that's the reason while it's "only" 50% difference between the two. In MT workloads the difference is much larger than 50%, while in ST workloads it's pretty small.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

That index combines ST and MT performance, so that's the reason while it's "only" 50% difference between the two. In MT workloads the difference is much larger than 50%, while in ST workloads it's pretty small.

And this is my point.
I don't understand why you make such bombastic remarks about It, when you knew very well this aggregate graph shows both ST and MT performance. Then It's understandable why 7700x fares so well against CPUs with more cores.

 

[inf64]

And this is my point.
I don't understand why you make such bombastic remarks about It, when you knew very well this aggregate graph shows both ST and MT performance. Then It's understandable why 7700x fares so well against CPUs with more cores.

It fares so well because it has crazy high performance, it basically matches 5900X in MT performance and outright beats it in ST and gaming. That's insane jump from gen to gen, I don't know if you don't see it or just ignore it. I'm not even going into perf./watt when using the manual tweaking, that'll make it way more efficient than even tweaked 5900X.

 

[naad]

That's the problem with aggregate/geometric mean scores, if you only look at them while not looking at what workloads are tested it can end up looking like there's minimal generation improvement.

For example, 20 tests, 14 are ST/2thread bound, rest don't scale beyond 6-8 cores.
Would make 24C Raptor lake look like a waste of money, right?

On the other hand your suite can be composed of nothing but rendering and would make the CPU look like the "best upgrade ever", but when used for regular desktop workloads it's barely any faster.

Best policy is always to look at benchmarks you _NEED_ . most people don't really run more than a handful of workloads. And it's very unlikely one who is running rendering 24/7 (backend throughput) needs absolute maximum statistical analysis performance (memory bandwidth) that they need a very different CPU and platform

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It fares so well because it has crazy high performance, it basically matches 5900X in MT performance and outright beats it in ST and gaming. That's insane jump from gen to gen, I don't know if you don't see it or just ignore it. I'm not even going into perf./watt when using the manual tweaking, that'll make it way more efficient than even tweaked 5900X.

Performance improvement of 25-30% is very nice, but I personally don't see a reason for using "crazy","insane" and such strong wording for It.
It's not like Raptor Lake won't stand a chance against It in desktop. On the other hand, mobile will be a much easier task for zen4.
7700x uses 5nm+6nm process, so It would be surprising to not be more efficient than 5900x.

 

[inf64]

Performance improvement of 25-30% is very nice, but I personally don't see a reason for using "crazy","insane" and such wording for It.
It's not like Raptor Lake won't stand a chance against It.
7700x uses 5nm+6nm process, so It would be surprising to not be more efficient than 5900x.

Well I think that 25-30% ST/MT jump is crazy high core to core, we haven't seen this since original Zen launched. Even Zen 3 didn't get us this much gen-to-gen improvement and everyone was raving about it. I'm not saying 7700X will beat 13th gen in MT, it will surely lose to 13700K and probably tie 13600K, but it will be a better gaming chip and win ST easily. It has awesome tweaking potential (for those who want to bother with that) and the only thing holding it back is the upgrade or new platform cost.

Intel is better positioned as 13th gen is socket compatible and supports DD4 memory, so this will be a major plus vs brand new Zen 4 build. But then you have platform longevity, b650 boards coming, DDR5 prices dropping, new Ryzen models coming (so 7700X goes down in price?) etc. This should make it a better deal than what it is right now. Purely from a performance standpoint, it's very impressive.

 

[Abwx]

Workstation on the cheap from Gigabyte with the B650E chipset :

AMD Ryzen 7000 für Workstation: Gigabyte kombiniert Profi-Mainboards mit Desktop-CPUs

Gigabyte kombiniert Workstation-Platinen mit B650E-Chipsatz und Ryzen 7000 zu einem Profi-System. Hinzu kommen zwei Workstation-Mainboards.

www.computerbase.de