Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[ondma]

If you need multi core performance, then the 7950X in eco mode (88W limit or 142W limit depending on your preference). If it's just for gaming, then I'd probably go for the 7700X.

There are actually reviews on Techspot for the 7950x and 7600x. Amazingly, the 7600x is very, very close to the 7950x in gaming. So right now, the 7600x (or midrange Alder Lake) is the sweet spot for pure gaming. Of course, you could always go for more cores for productivity or streaming, "future proofing", or simply because you want too.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

There are actually reviews on Techspot for the 7950x and 7600x. Amazingly, the 7600x is very, very close to the 7950x in gaming. So right now, the 7600x (or midrange Alder Lake) is the sweet spot for pure gaming. Of course, you could always go for more cores for productivity or streaming, "future proofing", or simply because you want too.

I need the biggest e-peen.

 

[Hitman928]

There are actually reviews on Techspot for the 7950x and 7600x. Amazingly, the 7600x is very, very close to the 7950x in gaming. So right now, the 7600x (or midrange Alder Lake) is the sweet spot for pure gaming. Of course, you could always go for more cores for productivity or streaming, "future proofing", or simply because you want too.

Yes, the 7600x is a good choice as well, I just like the idea of having 8 big cores for future proofing. It really just depends on budget and how long a person plans on keeping the CPU.

 

[moinmoin]

I think i saw that this igpu does support AV1 un a slide.

Only decoding, no AV1 encoding.

 

[Ranulf]

Amazingly, the 7600x is very, very close to the 7950x in gaming.

This has been true for 2 generations at least now on AMD side, 3 for Intel. Mid range reigns supreme again because performance is so close and advancements every 1-2 years means for most its not worth it to future proof with 8 cores.

 

[eek2121]

Alright gentlemen, I usually give Intel a lot of flak (though I most certainly don't play favorites), however now it is time for me to give AMD flak. Note that I actually think Zen 4 is a great product, however, AMD's execution is absolute garbage. AS USUAL. I am going to intentionally ignore pricing here, because most folks are still under 'inflation shock', that is, many here don't understand that the cost to build a PC has actually not gone up since 1999.

1. PCIE5? No PCIE5 devices on launch? What is happening here? We know what: NONE of the major NAND manufacturers were ready for launch. Only 1, possibly 2 will be ready by November. (It is sounding more like 1 btw, with a possible followup next year, note that we aren't talking about ODMs/OEMs here)
2. AMD EXPO where? One company (G.Skill), 1 size (32gb), nothing more.
3. Press coverage? Motherboards? Anything? To me, as awesome as Zen 4 is (7950x @ 65W matches the 5950x), AMD made a barebones effort to ensure a successful sales pipeline. Note that I have a lot to say about this. Some here are skeptical that client sales matter to AMD at all, but even to this day, AMD would be flirting with bankruptcy without it.
4. Saved this little nugget for last since it is highly opinionated: Where are the mini ITX motherboards AMD? Only one partner offered to have one available, and as of right now it is vaporware. Meanwhile if I want a Raptor Lake build, I have my pick of several ITX solutions.

...Oh and the bad? @amd why is it that a third -party reseller was the only one offering Zen 4, and at several percentage points over list price?..Why is it I can't build a complete system from parts that I ordered from Amazon (the largest e-tailor) in the US in 2022? I can absolutely build an Intel system and have the parts by Thursday or at the latest, Sunday.

(EDIT: In case the "case" isn't crystal clear, AMD is once again doing a poor job supporting partners. A proper launch would have had PCIE5 SSDs and AMD EXPO DDR5 modules ready to go weeks ago, with motherboards from all ODMs and of all shapes and sides available today...and Zen 4 "shipped from and sold by Amazon.com" at MSRP would have also been a thing.

 

[gdansk]

Alright gentlemen, I usually give Intel a lot of flak (though I most certainly don't play favorites), however now it is time for me to give AMD flak. Note that I actually think Zen 4 is a great product, however, AMD's execution is absolute garbage. AS USUAL. I am going to intentionally ignore pricing here, because most folks are still under 'inflation shock', that is, many here don't understand that the cost to build a PC has actually not gone up since 1999.

1. PCIE5? No PCIE5 devices on launch? What is happening here? We know what: NONE of the major NAND manufacturers were ready for launch. Only 1, possibly 2 will be ready by November. (It is sounding more like 1 btw, with a possible followup next year, note that we aren't talking about ODMs/OEMs here)
2. AMD EXPO where? One company (G.Skill), 1 size (32gb), nothing more.
3. Press coverage? Motherboards? Anything? To me, as awesome as Zen 4 is (7950x @ 65W matches the 5950x), AMD made a barebones effort to ensure a successful sales pipeline. Note that I have a lot to say about this. Some here are skeptical that client sales matter to AMD at all, but even to this day, AMD would be flirting with bankruptcy without it.
4. Saved this little nugget for last since it is highly opinionated: Where are the mini ITX motherboards AMD? Only one partner offered to have one available, and as of right now it is vaporware. Meanwhile if I want a Raptor Lake build, I have my pick of several ITX solutions.

...Oh and the bad? @amd why is it that a third -party reseller was the only one offering Zen 4, and at several percentage points over list price?..Why is it I can't build a complete system from parts that I ordered from Amazon (the largest e-tailor) in the US in 2022? I can absolutely build an Intel system and have the parts by Thursday or at the latest, Sunday.

(EDIT: In case the "case" isn't crystal clear, AMD is once again doing a poor job supporting partners. A proper launch would have had PCIE5 SSDs and AMD EXPO DDR5 modules ready to go weeks ago, with motherboards from all ODMs and of all shapes and sides available today...and Zen 4 "shipped from and sold by Amazon.com" at MSRP would have also been a thing.

Well Intel has PCIe5 too. Neither of them timed it right

 

[utahraptor]

1. PCIE5? No PCIE5 devices on launch? What is happening here? We know what: NONE of the major NAND manufacturers were ready for launch. Only 1, possibly 2 will be ready by November. (It is sounding more like 1 btw, with a possible followup next year, note that we aren't talking about ODMs/OEMs here)

I think by the time Raptor Lake and for sure when 3D chips are out there will be PCIE5 SSDs out at least at the 10k GBps level and possibly at 12k GBps. That will be the only selling point for 670E over Raptor Lake and can possibly put AMD ahead for futureproofing for just this gen as Intel will surely catch up on their 5.0 lanes for next gen.

 

[Markfw]

Alright gentlemen, I usually give Intel a lot of flak (though I most certainly don't play favorites), however now it is time for me to give AMD flak. Note that I actually think Zen 4 is a great product, however, AMD's execution is absolute garbage. AS USUAL. I am going to intentionally ignore pricing here, because most folks are still under 'inflation shock', that is, many here don't understand that the cost to build a PC has actually not gone up since 1999.

1. PCIE5? No PCIE5 devices on launch? What is happening here? We know what: NONE of the major NAND manufacturers were ready for launch. Only 1, possibly 2 will be ready by November. (It is sounding more like 1 btw, with a possible followup next year, note that we aren't talking about ODMs/OEMs here)
2. AMD EXPO where? One company (G.Skill), 1 size (32gb), nothing more.
3. Press coverage? Motherboards? Anything? To me, as awesome as Zen 4 is (7950x @ 65W matches the 5950x), AMD made a barebones effort to ensure a successful sales pipeline. Note that I have a lot to say about this. Some here are skeptical that client sales matter to AMD at all, but even to this day, AMD would be flirting with bankruptcy without it.
4. Saved this little nugget for last since it is highly opinionated: Where are the mini ITX motherboards AMD? Only one partner offered to have one available, and as of right now it is vaporware. Meanwhile if I want a Raptor Lake build, I have my pick of several ITX solutions.

...Oh and the bad? @amd why is it that a third -party reseller was the only one offering Zen 4, and at several percentage points over list price?..Why is it I can't build a complete system from parts that I ordered from Amazon (the largest e-tailor) in the US in 2022? I can absolutely build an Intel system and have the parts by Thursday or at the latest, Sunday.

(EDIT: In case the "case" isn't crystal clear, AMD is once again doing a poor job supporting partners. A proper launch would have had PCIE5 SSDs and AMD EXPO DDR5 modules ready to go weeks ago, with motherboards from all ODMs and of all shapes and sides available today...and Zen 4 "shipped from and sold by Amazon.com" at MSRP would have also been a thing.

Only a couple of points. AMD and newegg had the CPUs @MSRP @ 6:00am PDT. Motherboard also were at newegg in abundance from $300 on up. FOR MOST OF THE DAY !

Edit: NOTE... when Zen 3 came out I waited 6 months to get a 5950x at any price. And motherboards ? who cares if you can't get a CPU, today I got 2 !
And memory ? I have a good 32 gig kit and a good 64 gig kit, both low CAS. EXPO ? I will let you know how mine work, it will be a few days, as I don't have a microcenter near, as Adam did ,and he is up already. Oh, and they still have 25 of them by his house@MSRP. I know everybody is not so lucky, but I say AMD did pretty damn good this time.

Edit2 Its now at MSRP at B&H photo, and in stock.

 

[gdansk]

But AMD did mess things up, especially with their partners. Why is the X670 uplink to the CPU only x4? Z690 which has less on the chipset has x8. Why are X670 boot times so long? Why are X670 boards more expensive than Z690?

It's ecosystem things like this where AMD falls apart, I think. And without a convincing lead in price, ST/MT performance, or stock efficiency it is harder to overlook AMD's platform shortcomings than it was for Zen 3.

 

[deasd]

CPU Ranking, Zen4 ST crown before Raptorlake release

CPU天梯榜 v2.20 - 超能网

but MT efficiency is slightly behind 5950X. what's interesting is they also test ST efficiency and the ranking is......shocking, to say the least.

 

[ondma]

I need the biggest e-peen.

Well, there is always that. Personally tend to agree with you. In the overall scheme of things, cpus are a relatively cheap thing to splurge on, even compared to gpus, much less to cars, vacations, jewelry, etc. So why not splurge a bit and buy a top end or near top end. I already have a hex core intel, so even though AL and Zen 4 have much better IPC, I probably would not upgrade to another hex core.

 

[beginner99]

Well Intel has PCIe5 too. Neither of them timed it right

Not really in their control. That is up to ssd and other providers to offer things that actually need pcie5 and that is where the problem lies. Even a RTX 4090 doesn't need it. On the ssd side, for NAND ssds the max bandwidth figures are mostly irrelevant for consumers as well. The number of consumers moving very large files from ssd to ssd is pretty limited. What consumers notice is copying tons of small files in a folder and that is were even these pcie5 ssds won't offer anything over a sata ssd. (in general IOPS at low QD for small files). That is were optane shined. A shame it's gone.

 

[Atari2600]

but MT efficiency is slightly behind 5950X. what's interesting is they also test ST efficiency and the ranking is......shocking, to say the least.

That's the compromise made with the IOD.

I think we'd all agree, its a compromise well worth making as its very unusual to be hammering on a single thread these days.

 

[Saylick]

Not surprised, but Twitter is hinting that we'll see >5 GHz for Zen 4 V-cache. Will we get a 2-Hi version? AMD should have just released the V-cache versions off the bat to immediately take the gaming crown. 8 cores @ 5.4 GHz max boost for $549 doesn't sound bad at all for something that will just smoke the competition.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574947305803091969

 

[Timorous]

Not surprised, but Twitter is hinting that we'll see >5 GHz for Zen 4 V-cache. Will we get a 2-Hi version? AMD should have just released the V-cache versions off the bat to immediately take the gaming crown. 8 cores @ 5.4 GHz max boost for $549 doesn't sound bad at all for something that will just smoke the competition.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1574947305803091969

I think waiting a little is the smart move. I expect the 7800X3D to come in at $500 but by the time it releases B650 will be out and DDR5 should have dropped a little further in price making the actual build cost of buying a 7800X3D rig when that releases similar to the cost of a 7600X rig now.

Also with Intel launching their parts on Oct 20th I expect AMD to put out a spoiler around that time showing off X3D gaming performance.

 

[inf64]

AMD didn't mention the Vcache parts as it would potentially affect the vanilla SKU sales. If Vcache parts are indeed 20-30% faster, then gamers would want that even if it costs 550USD for 8 core.

 

[Timorous]

AMD didn't mention the Vcache parts as it would potentially affect the vanilla SKU sales. If Vcache parts are indeed 20-30% faster, then gamers would want that even if it costs 550USD for 8 core.

Personally, if AMD had them available I would have launched with 7800X3D, 7900X, 7950X and 7950X3D. With this SKU list it would have left out more budget conscious users but with the DDR5 and X670 prices the full platform cost does that to a degree anyway. I would then have a 2nd launch for B650 and the 7600X and 7700X a month or so later to give the more budget buyers options at a lower buy in point.

That sku list would also cater to the pure gamer, two levels of productivity 1st users and the I want it all user.

 

[therealmongo]

Here we have it

Please click the green human to continue - UserBenchmark

"Value & Sentiment -2,388%"



Skip the "editors" comments

 

[inf64]

Here we have it

Please click the green human to continue - UserBenchmark

"Value & Sentiment -2,388%"



Skip the "editors" comments

Guy removed all the early results and now Ryzen 7000 scores around 20% less than it did before. The website is a joke

 

[moinmoin]

Alright gentlemen, I usually give Intel a lot of flak (though I most certainly don't play favorites), however now it is time for me to give AMD flak. Note that I actually think Zen 4 is a great product, however, AMD's execution is absolute garbage. AS USUAL. I am going to intentionally ignore pricing here, because most folks are still under 'inflation shock', that is, many here don't understand that the cost to build a PC has actually not gone up since 1999.

1. PCIE5? No PCIE5 devices on launch? What is happening here? We know what: NONE of the major NAND manufacturers were ready for launch. Only 1, possibly 2 will be ready by November. (It is sounding more like 1 btw, with a possible followup next year, note that we aren't talking about ODMs/OEMs here)
2. AMD EXPO where? One company (G.Skill), 1 size (32gb), nothing more.
3. Press coverage? Motherboards? Anything? To me, as awesome as Zen 4 is (7950x @ 65W matches the 5950x), AMD made a barebones effort to ensure a successful sales pipeline. Note that I have a lot to say about this. Some here are skeptical that client sales matter to AMD at all, but even to this day, AMD would be flirting with bankruptcy without it.
4. Saved this little nugget for last since it is highly opinionated: Where are the mini ITX motherboards AMD? Only one partner offered to have one available, and as of right now it is vaporware. Meanwhile if I want a Raptor Lake build, I have my pick of several ITX solutions.

...Oh and the bad? @amd why is it that a third -party reseller was the only one offering Zen 4, and at several percentage points over list price?..Why is it I can't build a complete system from parts that I ordered from Amazon (the largest e-tailor) in the US in 2022? I can absolutely build an Intel system and have the parts by Thursday or at the latest, Sunday.

(EDIT: In case the "case" isn't crystal clear, AMD is once again doing a poor job supporting partners. A proper launch would have had PCIE5 SSDs and AMD EXPO DDR5 modules ready to go weeks ago, with motherboards from all ODMs and of all shapes and sides available today...and Zen 4 "shipped from and sold by Amazon.com" at MSRP would have also been a thing.

Seem to be somewhat silly complaints to me. These are the kind of early platform launch availability issues nobody will talk about anymore once everything is up and running. Especially if said platform will then be stable for 3+ years.

While I understand and agree to a degree that AMD should prepare and support third parties more, blaming them e.g. for the lack of PCIe 5 NVMe could even be counterproductive. I want quality hardware, not some rushed stuff to check some boxes. Samsung just launched a quality PCIe 4 NVMe, AMD announced manufacturers plan to launch PCIe 5 NVMe in November. I hope they have good controllers by then but personally prefer to watch the development first.

Why is the X670 uplink to the CPU only x4?

Because the "chipset" is barely anything more than an USB/SATA hub. Anything serious should be hooked directly to the CPU anyway.

 

[biostud]

Could they announce 7800X3D november 3rd as well?

 

[DrMrLordX]

There are actually reviews on Techspot for the 7950x and 7600x. Amazingly, the 7600x is very, very close to the 7950x in gaming. So right now, the 7600x (or midrange Alder Lake) is the sweet spot for pure gaming. Of course, you could always go for more cores for productivity or streaming, "future proofing", or simply because you want too.

Tbh nothing else outshines the 5800X3D enough in pure gaming for it to be the "sweet spot", especially when counting platform costs. The only selling point for AM5 today for the pure gamer is that you can get Raphael-X later, if you're just that much of an upgrade hog. Raptor Lake will outperform the 5800X3D most likely (for a price), but "midrage Alder Lake"? Nah.

AMD should have just released the V-cache versions off the bat to immediately take the gaming crown.

They can't, for numerous reasons. It's likely not even ready for sale yet. They'll drop in in early 2023 or so.

 

[Timmah!]

Well Intel has PCIe5 too. Neither of them timed it right

Nvidia dropped the ball with the new power connector for a change. Pretty much no PSUs available yet - but maybe they will be on 12th October?

That said, this is AMD weak spot. They make great products, but they always neglect something, spoiling it. Like for example their GPUs, their RDNA3 flagship might be 3x as fast as 4090 and cheaper on top of that, yet still not an alternative for me and many other people, cause it wont work with the likes of Octane Render.

 

[moinmoin]

Could they announce 7800X3D november 3rd as well?

That could overshadow the RX 7000 launch on that day. I'd expect AMD to keep the dates separate for maximum publicity impact.