Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[CakeMonster]

I believe Zen5 will come soon(by soon I mean Q12023), so why wait if it is ready?
There is certainly market that will gobble them up.

There's lots of wild rumors now, but Z5 less than 6 months after Z4 makes even less sense to me.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

There's lots of wild rumors now, but Z5 less than 6 months after Z4 makes even less sense to me.

I mean, it could make sense if all that has happened has delayed Z4 but Z5 remained mostly on track.

I don't think that's going to happen, though, I expect a fall launch for Z5 too.

 

[randomhero]

There's lots of wild rumors now, but Z5 less than 6 months after Z4 makes even less sense to me.

Yeah, brain fart

 

[randomhero]

There's lots of wild rumors now, but Z5 less than 6 months after Z4 makes even less sense to me.

Yeah, brain fart .
Meant Q12024

 

[randomhero]

I mean, it could make sense if all that has happened has delayed Z4 but Z5 remained mostly on track.

I don't think that's going to happen, though, I expect a fall launch for Z5 too.

Q42023 seems very plausible for Z5, Z5 APU comes in Q12024. I was being conservative when I said Q12024 (Q12023 was brain fart).

 

[lobz]

I believe Zen5 will come soon(by soon I mean Q12023), so why wait if it is ready?
There is certainly market that will gobble them up.

Was just a reaction to a typo/brainfart, not worth to keep 😊

 

[moinmoin]

Maybe not, but price wise they have to compete with 5800X3D and DDR4 though.

Every new gen has to compete with the respective last gen entries though. Why should that (only) affect the pricing of a 7800X3D then?

Unless the rumor of Zen 4 on AM4 turns out to be true both gens are also separated by different platforms which should keep their street prices from affecting each other.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Damn, Zen 4 on AM4??? It's the socket that just won't stop giving gifts to its owners. Zen 3 will see prices drop even further when AMD announces this officially.

 

[maddie]

Damn, Zen 4 on AM4??? It's the socket that just won't stop giving gifts to its owners. Zen 3 will see prices drop even further when AMD announces this officially.

Taking on full faith I see.

 

[moinmoin]

Taking on full faith I see.

@igor_kavinski is our boisterous poster boy.

 

[Kedas]

If zen5 doesn't come a year after zen4 they could fill the gap with zen4 on 4nm since they would already have done most of the work assuming zen4 mobile is not zen4c on 4nm.

 

[Ajay]

Sounds like Zen4 V-cache could be launched by the end of 2022?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539171315940204544

Interesting! Hmm, that's why I was hoping for a transcript of the FAD presentations. I didn't want to sit through that, what, 4 hour event. Missed allot of stuff, including this.

 

[LightningZ71]

So a rumor is going around saying AM4 might get Zen4 cores on AM4 socket with Zen3 IoD that will utilize DDR4

AMD Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" Launch Date and Lineup Revealed, Spectacular AM4 Rumor Surfaces

15th September, 2022, is when AMD will debut its Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" desktop processors. The launch strategy of these chips looks similar to that of the Ryzen 5000 series. The company is preparing a lean launch lineup with just four SKUs—the Ryzen 9 7950X, the Ryzen 9 7900X, Ryzen 7 7800X, and...

www.techpowerup.com

I've been advocating for an N6 shrink of the current Zen3 CCDs for one final AM4 product at the lower end (N6 being cheaper than N5 and the power and thermal characteristic improvements making a big difference for MT..) but, I like this a LOT better, though, I think that it will be a more expensive product for us to purchase.

 

[jpiniero]

I've been advocating for an N6 shrink of the current Zen3 CCDs for one final AM4 product at the lower end (N6 being cheaper than N5 and the power and thermal characteristic improvements making a big difference for MT..) but, I like this a LOT better, though, I think that it will be a more expensive product for us to purchase.

Zen 4 on AM4 feels like the kind of product that only comes out if sales are bad. Which you would think between Genoa, AM5 and Dragon Range they shouldn't have any difficulty in selling out without having to resort to AM4.

 

[CakeMonster]

I'm gonna make a bet that Z4 on AM4 is not happening, it just seems way too out there and maps very well onto the weirdest wishful thinking rumors.

DDR5 price is on the right trajectory, the release of Z4 is months away, and they have a very good AM4 portfolio that is cheap to produce. Absolutely no need to make last risky minute engineering bets on the old platform.

 

[HurleyBird]

I'm gonna make a bet that Z4 on AM4 is not happening, it just seems way too out there and maps very well onto the weirdest wishful thinking rumors.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Zen 4 AM4 was working in a lab somewhere, but the odds of eventually seeing a product come out of it are obviously smaller. If it does become a thing at some point, I imagine it would be at least 6 months after the regular Zen 4 launch to minimize canalization, could be targeted at very specific regions, and would be contingent on memory pricing which currently doesn't look like it's heading in the right direction for an AM4 Zen 4 to make much sense.

 

[Abwx]

Zen 4 on AM4 feels like the kind of product that only comes out if sales are bad.

Or to fullfill the WSA with GF since there s nothing left from this foundry in the next gen DT CPUs.

 

[Saylick]

Or to fullfill the WSA with GF since there s nothing left from this foundry in the next gen DT CPUs.

I'm sure AMD has plenty of unmet demand for Milan that requires GF wafers for the IO die.

 

[jamescox]

For X3D models L3 cache is 3 times the size and people are going to have to pay a premium for that difference.


Cloud partners, first and foremost Azure, always get first dips indeed. At FAD AMD indicated the cloud market is its single most important market by TAM:

(Source: slide 6 Dan McNamara presentation)

Their “cpu core roadmap” slide shows a check mark above both zen 4 and zen 4 with 3D v-cache, so it is possible that the v-cache parts will be available right away. I don’t think they will have them across the whole desktop lineup though. It may be the same as the Zen 3, with 1 gaming part. It would be nice to have a 7800 and 7900 series part with v-cache, but due to Genoa with v-cache demand, it might be limited to 1 part again.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe AMD is just winding down Zen 3 chiplet production and it just makes more sense for them to have Zen 4 chiplets going forward for both AM4 and AM5.

 

[Ranulf]

Maybe AMD is just winding down Zen 3 chiplet production and it just makes more sense for them to have Zen 4 chiplets going forward for both AM4 and AM5.

Like the 1600AF perhaps.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Also, even Zen 3 users may see value in upgrading to a Zen 4 CPU on AM4. Those with the upgrade itch won't be able to resist!

 

[Thunder 57]

I don't see it happening. I think at this point AMD is more interested in establishing AM5 and selling more chipsets is a nice bonus. Motherboard manufactures would hate this as well. It is an interesting idea but it sounds like somebodies dream made into a rumor.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Remember, AMD themselves did not discount the possibility of future CPUs on AM4. They said that it will co-exist with AM5 for a while.

 

[jamescox]

I'm sure AMD has plenty of unmet demand for Milan that requires GF wafers for the IO die.

They have a lot of products in the pipeline that need all kinds of accessory chips. They are going to need a lot of HBM going forward, but I don’t know if GF can make HBM. They may need a lot of silicon bridge chips that they might be able to make at GF. The silicon bridge chips would likely just have some metal routing and some solder micro-bumps. It seems like a waste to make that at TSMC. If they connect infinity cache via micro-bump tech, then they would have a lot of cache chips that could be made elsewhere. The SoIC cache stacked on top needs to be made at TSMC, but the infinity cache underneath seems like it would be micro-bump style stacking with EFB. Anyone know if SRAM cache made at GF would be competitive density / power to cache made at TSMC? Even if it is a bit larger, it still may be cheaper to make at GF.