Speculation: Ryzen 4000 series/Zen 3

[uzzi38]

The new Athlons are just salvaged/fused off Renoir dies. Dali is coming later.

Uh, aren't they just RAVEN2?

 

[moinmoin]

Uh, aren't they just RAVEN2?

Or that, not a new die like Dali in any case.

 

[moinmoin]

Not much, but the AT article confirmed that Renoir has two CCXs, meaning the Zen 3 microcode is decisive.
"AMD stated that the Zen 2 design in this chips follows the same CCX layout as the desktop hardware, which means the 8 cores are split into two CCX units which communicate over the internal infinity fabric."

While Renoir will still be based in Zen 2, like the previous APUs it will contain microcode of the next Zen gen, so Zen 3 in this case. If the rumor of Renoir having 8 cores is correct (and it prolly should be, with Intel increasing the number of cores as well), this would mean two CCXs with 4 cores each. The "next gen" microcode would have to handle the increasing latency two CCXs would otherwise introduce while retaining the significantly smaller L3$ size of APUs compared to the server/desktop dies.

To me it sounds like DisEnchantment's interpretation of the patents is spot on (assuming compute block = CCX, so definitely L3$):

 

[tamz_msc]

The new Athlons are just salvaged/fused off Renoir dies. Dali is coming later.

The new Athlons are Zen(Zen+?).

 

[kapulek]

Renoir looks great. Too bad it's basically a Q2 product.
Any guess when we'll see Van Gogh APUs? Is it Apple exclusive ZEN2 + RDNA2(?), maybe rumored Apple gaming notebook? Then there's also ZEN3 based APU - Cezanne.

 

[Shivansps]

Athlons are problably the same old Raven2, they have a native 2C/4T no reason for them not to use it until they replace it for another native 2C.

Check how they removed the Vega CU number from the APU names just to hide the fact that the have smaller igps. They got a little lazy this time, i would have expected them to pull another RX5000 bs move.

In mobile its still going to be an upgrade, because The Vega 10 GPU on Picasso doesn't run anywhere near 1.3GHz, and closer to 900MHz.

If they can bring the gaming frequencies to say 1.4-1.5GHz, it'll end up performing much better, especially with the premium LPDDR4x setup.

There is a high chance of mobile Renoir to be better. But only because Picasso in mobile is working below expectations. Im far more worried about desktop APUs, this makes me to belive that the 4200G will be a Vega 6 just like the roumor said, that just wrong, even if it ends up performing better than the 3200G.

 

[tomatosummit]

There is a high chance of mobile Renoir to be better. But only because Picasso in mobile is working below expectations. Im far more worried about desktop APUs, this makes me to belive that the 4200G will be a Vega 6 just like the roumor said, that just wrong, even if it ends up performing better than the 3200G.

I think it's a side effect of them hitting the market segmentation properly this time. 15w laptops with better igpus for the smaller form factors and 45w targeting discrete gpus in mid and high end gaming and workstation laptops. The market for low end gaming laptop is probably too small and might be served by any skus set to 25-35w currently.

I do think the desktop apu will be less of an improvement and it's a pity.
I have had a few thoughts though which is does the die even have a ddr4 memory controller which it'll need for am4 motherboard.
If it does then it's the newer one that isn't tied to IF so you can push the memory above 3600mt easily perhaps.
And overclocking the igpu, It'll probably do 2ghz in a desktop form factor.
It'll be an improvement but it'll take work to get and the price isn't going to be nice as an 8core zen2 cpu is ~300cash.

 

[LightningZ71]

I wish that there had been a U series processor released that had a 6/12 core configuration with a full fat 8CU iGPU. I think that it would have been an excellent product for the thinner market that still gives the best possible GPU performance in the form factor. We still might see one in the next Surface device. As for the H series, I fully understand the approach there. When you're pushing a tdp budget that high, you're looking at a more expensive laptop to begin with that will already be competing with other models that have dGPUs. It just doesn't make financial sense to offer that product there.

On desktop, if they maintain their current approach, I have to question what their pricing model will be. The 3200g/3400g were roughly $99/$149. Those were 4 core designs that were rather performance limited. On desktop, Renoir will have the ability to punch well above the 3600/3600x, and can't justify a lower price than those units. Maybe we're looking at a lineup like this: 4200g 4/4, 6CUs $99; 4400g 4/8, 7CUs $150; 4500g 6/6, 7CUs $180; 4600g 6/12 8CUs $200; 4700g 8/8 7CUs $250; 4800g 8/16 8CUs $300. With 90+ watt TDPs, they can maintain healthy boost levels and high iGPU clocks. It should make for excellent SFF boxes for offices and entertainment centers.

 

[Shivansps]

I think Intel is going 4/8 for the I3, a 4/4 4200G may be a mistake. its time for 4/4 to be an Athlon.

But im far more worried about this general CU downgrade that AMD is doing across the board while balancing it with higher clocks, it will be already be controversial if those were Navi cores, but Vega cores? is something that must be attacked, not defended, no matter the reasons.

 

[tomatosummit]

I wish that there had been a U series processor released that had a 6/12 core configuration with a full fat 8CU iGPU I have to question what their pricing model will be.

I think you're sort of right, on the desktop at least. A 6core/8gpu would make more sense there and give a sub $200 price point like the 2400g before it. This is with me assuming there will be price drops to compete with intel's 10th gen desktops, 6/12 i5s will mean ~$150 that the r5 3600 will need to meet. Maybe 200-250 for the r7+igpu? Although that's still too much.

 

[Shivansps]

Also, i dont understand is why the 4800H, have smaller gpu and graphics frequency than the 4800U. What im missing here?

 

[coercitiv]

Also, i dont understand is why the 4800H, have smaller gpu and graphics frequency than the 4800U. What im missing here?

You're missing the dGPU that is likely to be included in the multimedia/gaming/content creation machines that come with this CPU.

 

[rainy]

Also, i dont understand is why the 4800H, have smaller gpu and graphics frequency than the 4800U. What im missing here?

Clearly TDP, those 45W APU will have mobile GPU as well, there's no reason for bigger/stronger IGP.

 

[Shivansps]

Then i dont understand the point of having an igp if thats the case, is AMD going to use something similar to Nvidia Optimus?

 

[tomatosummit]

Then i dont understand the point of having an igp if thats the case, is AMD going to use something similar to Nvidia Optimus?

It looks like that's what speed shift is all about with some extra bits that amd can afford to implement as they have both the cpu and gpu. Certainly need a small igpu for these laptops but only a small one.

It is a bit weird at the choice of skus though. Why not two different cpus with 8/16cores, one with full fat 8cu and another with a more significant 4cu cut for power saving and give the option to vendors with the expectation of the 4cu selling more in the dgpu systems.
Having 7cus is an odd choice and just looks like it's for binning for the full feature chips goto the 4800u and faulty parts goto 4800h.

 

[Topweasel]

Having 7cus is an odd choice and just looks like it's for binning for the full feature chips goto the 4800u and faulty parts goto 4800h.

Probably AMD's goal here is probably to have many a different configuration as possible with as few sku's as possible. This should make binning tons easier.

 

[Richie Rich]

Any guess when we'll see Van Gogh APUs? Is it Apple exclusive ZEN2 + RDNA2(?), maybe rumored Apple gaming notebook?

If Apple ordered from AMD a custom Renoir APU AKA Van Gogh with more powerfull integrated GPU then this could be a reason for Renoir having just 8 CU. I wouldn't surprised using HBM as more power efficient configuration.

Interesting is why AMD didn't released info about Zen 3. Could it be due to Zen 3 is delayed to Q4 20?

 

[Shivansps]

If Apple ordered from AMD a custom Renoir APU AKA Van Gogh with more powerfull integrated GPU then this could be a reason for Renoir having just 8 CU.

How so?

 

[tomatosummit]

Probably AMD's goal here is probably to have many a different configuration as possible with as few sku's as possible. This should make binning tons easier.

These are laptops though, the vast majority of the sales are going to be the low end versions and with the expected yield they'll be chopping bits off to fill the multiple low end skus, are they expecting the 12nm raven ridge (picasso?) to fill the low end and have renoir in the mid/high performance and premium tiers despite there are 4core sku. The previous gen was better in this regard with the r5 and r7 both having 4c/8t and different cu counts instead, similar to the ice lake U segmentation.

 

[kapulek]

Interesting is why AMD didn't released info about Zen 3. Could it be due to Zen 3 is delayed to Q4 20?

AMD has a real winner on their hands with ZEN2, they are still wafer constrained I think. There's no point for them to show ZEN3 and make people to wait for ZEN3 instead of buying ZEN2 products. Plus there are desktop APUs left to launch.
Mark Papermaster only mentioned mid year release for Milan.

 

[Topweasel]

These are laptops though, the vast majority of the sales are going to be the low end versions and with the expected yield they'll be chopping bits off to fill the multiple low end skus, are they expecting the 12nm raven ridge (picasso?) to fill the low end and have renoir in the mid/high performance and premium tiers despite there are 4core sku. The previous gen was better in this regard with the r5 and r7 both having 4c/8t and different cu counts instead, similar to the ice lake U segmentation.

Even then they can bin by demand. But whats worth more 6 core 4CU unit or a 8c 4CU unit. If you have an option to sell 8 functioning dies do you want to just say screw it and sell it as low core unit, or do you want the option to sell it in scenario's where the system is more likely to have a dGPU for 3d work anyways?

 

[tomatosummit]

Even then they can bin by demand. But whats worth more 6 core 4CU unit or a 8c 4CU unit. If you have an option to sell 8 functioning dies do you want to just say screw it and sell it as low core unit, or do you want the option to sell it in scenario's where the system is more likely to have a dGPU for 3d work anyways?

It's more the spread of the skus. I was trying to point out that laptops tend to sell low end chips more often and amd probably has good yields on a 150mm^2 chip. so I don't think there'll be much need for such specific binning. Nothing is going above 4.2ghz and from the desktop ryzens it looks like 4.2ghz is almost free, stability and power draw only really starts to suck when going above that.

The spread of skus is fairly tame as well. There are no funky parts available, like full 8 cores with 2/4cus or 4/6 cores with 8cus. I wouldn't expect those to be high selling parts but they might tickle some oem's fancy. It's all top end has everything enabled and as you go down the stack they turn off one core or cu each step.

 

[moinmoin]

It looks like that's what speed shift is all about with some extra bits that amd can afford to implement as they have both the cpu and gpu. Certainly need a small igpu for these laptops but only a small one.

It is a bit weird at the choice of skus though. Why not two different cpus with 8/16cores, one with full fat 8cu and another with a more significant 4cu cut for power saving and give the option to vendors with the expectation of the 4cu selling more in the dgpu systems.
Having 7cus is an odd choice and just looks like it's for binning for the full feature chips goto the 4800u and faulty parts goto 4800h.

Like in the desktop market I think it's best to think of these SKUs as upper limits regarding core/cu count and frequencies that can still be further customized using cTDP and all the PB2 parameters. This makes further SKU segmentation unnecessary. But if a company still really wants that AMD has shown to be willing to deliver some exclusive "semi custom" (more like custom binned, if that) SKUs.

Interesting is why AMD didn't released info about Zen 3. Could it be due to Zen 3 is delayed to Q4 20?

This is CES. The actual Zen 3 public announcement will be focused on the server market as always. Only after that we will get information specific to the desktop market.

But we are still getting some Zen 3 since Renoir will contain (some of) the Zen 3 microcode. Unfortunately reviews of Picasso glossed over e.g. the significantly changed boosting behavior that would later cause a storm when Zen 2 Ryzen launched. I hope we will get more in-depth Renoir reviews this round detailing the microcode changes like unified L3$ that are bound to have an even bigger effect in Zen 3 Ryzen.

 

[amd6502]

Also, i dont understand is why the 4800H, have smaller gpu and graphics frequency than the 4800U. What im missing here?

That's because the 15W parts are higher binning than the 45W parts. The 4800u is an elite bin (igp f=1750) while 4800H/HS is likely a similar (high) bin as 4700u. However, it seems likely the cpu-igpu throttling will be much more minor in the 45W and 35W chips than in the 15W chips. So this advantage might even out the freq and CU disadvantage, making the iGPU pretty similar between H and U series.

I also ask myself why they have tops 7CU in this H series, and my best guess is they may be saving the highest clocking 8CU parts that can't make the cutoff for 4800u (and maybe also not for 4700u/4600u) for the AM4 desktop. So hopefully when they do arrive for AM4 we will get some 8CU 8c SKUs and a 6c/12t one too.

 

[Shivansps]

I also ask myself why they have tops 7CU in this H series, and my best guess is they may be saving the highest clocking 8CU parts that can't make the cutoff for 4800u (and maybe also not for 4700u/4600u) for the AM4 desktop. So hopefully when they do arrive for AM4 we will get some 8CU 8c SKUs and a 6c/12t one too.

I still want to belive Renoir still is in fact a 10CU-11CU, and they are just not using it on mobile, only 8CU max on desktop will put AMD on a very thin ice for segmentation.

Imagine Renoir 8C/16T Vega 8 as the full die. They probably need to launch a 6/12, a 6/6, a 4/8 and a 4/4. And i would belive they would target the 9400F with the 6/6 Renoir.

If they segment Vega, what i have not reason to belive they will not to, the 4/4 may be a Vega 4 or Vega 5 product.

Personally, i belive the 4/4 to be a $75 Athlon and the 4200G a 4/8 with Vega 6, and the 4400G 6/6 with Vega 7 targeting the 9400F. Considering the mobile APUs this is the best i can expect for the $100 and $150 skus. But it remains to be seen.