Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

Page 212 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

What will Ryzen 3000 for AM4 look like?


  • Total voters
    230

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
756
211
86
I don't know, Dali is honestly already more than I expected after they took their sweet time with it. Eventually Dali will be replaced by a 7nm part based on Renoir, possibly 4c then since 7nm density allows that while still making the die smaller. Then they could eventually add a sub-Dali 7nm part, significantly smaller and 2c. But it's clear those are on the very bottom of the whole food chain on a given node, so we will likely be well into the Zen 3 or even Zen 4 gen when those appear.
I don't know how long it would take for 7nm to make it to a lower budget APU. It seems 12nm or 22FDX would have real advantages for anything under 2B or maybe even 3B transistors. Minimum area and perimeter for small 7nm dies probably get to be a problem.

It looks like they are getting really close to getting 2c/4t to work on 6W. Short by 2W, and yet they did get 2c/2t to work at 6W:


Is Dali just Raven2 with maybe select wavers and minor fabrication tweak? Or is it a new stepping?

"[Ematic" laptop (Walmart house brand)] sometimes gets in a "mood", and maxes out at 53% CPU used across both cores, and 0.80Ghz max clock. Guess passive cooling isn't good enough?
I think there' s gotta be some configuration issue from the manufacturer. Most brands would hesitate to put out a product with such issues, but with a noname that might fly.

I know at 6w there are lower frequencies, but still. 1.2GHz was the minimum frequency I was able to clock my 15w A12 quadcore at; and at that freq it was actually fine at most things like movie and www under a dozen or so tabs.

I almost considered getting an hp walmart sku but then got cold feet after doubting the upgradability of said walmart sku. I'd be really hesitant to touch any brands/quality below the budget line of lenovo. Lenovo has been really price competitive in the budget category. The quality is still usually acceptable, especially in their mature laptops.

Is your emmc laptop upgradable in terms of RAM as well as sata (like adding a proper SSD)?

I got very lucky on the build quality of a A6-9225 ideaPad. The platform seems to have been based on earlier variants, one which I owned; and I was able to tell they ironed out the kinks. It sometimes takes manufacturers time and iterations to get product quality to where it should be.

Anyway, said low end laptop has been holding up great and is running well for the basics after upgrading to 8gb and a small SSD. Passed it down to a friend who uses it besides her chromebook. (Sometimes you just need a low end windows machine to drive some hardware like printers.) With the bigger screen it makes a better entertainment/movie station than the small chromebook.

As far as 6w Stoney I don't think they should make them except for the top bin. Maybe they could have a medium bin 6w-10w ctdp for tablets and throwaway emmc 12" notebooks, and name it A4 or something.

Anyway Stoney is just a temporary stopgap until Raven2 or Dali do better at low wattages. And then they're good for another 4+ years with Dali to address the lower and bottom range. Which also means they'd hopefully have something in the pipeline at or near the end of the concept stage.

In the year or two ahead, the next quadcore 7nm APU should address the mainstream as well as part of the lower end. I hope it is 10W oriented (6w to 15w for most mobile products) and Zen3. That should be ideal for the consumer for the next 5-8 years.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: lightmanek

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
47,656
4,826
126
I think there' s gotta be some configuration issue from the manufacturer. Most brands would hesitate to put out a product with such issues, but with a noname that might fly.
Nah, my Dell Inspiron 11.6" w/A6-9220e 6W does it too. It's Stoney, I tell ya.
 

NostaSeronx

Platinum Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,976
565
126
Is Dali just Raven2 with maybe select wavers and minor fabrication tweak? Or is it a new stepping?
Raven2 uses the Picasso vBIOS.
Dali/Pollock uses the Renoir vBIOS.

Basically, hw-software bits in Dali/Pollock are equal to Renoir, while Raven2 is equal to Picasso.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
756
211
86
Raven2 uses the Picasso vBIOS.
Dali/Pollock uses the Renoir vBIOS.

Basically, hw-software bits in Dali/Pollock are equal to Renoir, while Raven2 is equal to Picasso.
They are probably still busy tweaking for lower and lower wattages. Maybe they can save some by going single channel again; no real need for dual channel at 6w.
 

NostaSeronx

Platinum Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,976
565
126
They are probably still busy tweaking for lower and lower wattages. Maybe they can save some by going single channel again; no real need for dual channel at 6w.
Chromebook gerrit puts Pollock as Single channel DDR4, No Sata, increased I2C from 3 to 5, on FT5 BGA socket, etc. So, maybe?!
 
  • Like
Reactions: amd6502

moinmoin

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2017
1,568
1,425
106
Minimum area and perimeter for small 7nm dies probably get to be a problem.
Is this really a thing? If so can you link any discussion of it? To me it seems it's mostly an economical decision (like e.g. die size of LEDs), not a technical limit of a node.

Is Dali just Raven2 with maybe select wavers and minor fabrication tweak? Or is it a new stepping?
My impression is the two are the same, Raven2 was the internal name leaked through driver sources, Dali is the official name AMD used for it in the public (so late that I expected it to be something different).
 

amrnuke

Senior member
Apr 24, 2019
797
883
96
Apparenlty, there are serious disruptions facing many technology manufacturing business due to the novel Corona Virus. Chinese manufacturers have extended their lunar new year holiday shutdowns while the government assesses risk levels. I've seen hints that a major rollout for a top level semicon producer has been delayed because of it (that would be Intel, AMD or Nvidia).

All that to say, I wouldn't be surprised if the 3400G has been impacted (probably relies on China for part of the supply chain).
As an update, 3400G in stock at MicroCenter, 10+ on the shelves in Dallas.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
756
211
86
Is this really a thing? If so can you link any discussion of it? To me it seems it's mostly an economical decision (like e.g. die size of LEDs), not a technical limit of a node.
I'm not sure if there are these limits. Even if there are no such limits, would one expect 7nm to become more economical than 12nm over the next few years?

7nm definitely seems to have big power savings advantages.

Given that the 8c APU already exists for Zen2, it's natural that the more mainstream high volume 4c APU will arrive afterwards for Zen3. This would allow it to address the mainstream (upper to middle) while Picasso's role gets downgraded to address lower mainstream.
 

Gideon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2007
780
1,108
136
Odd that they're releasing those now.
I think this is in response to Comet-Lake i3 release (which is actually very decent 7700K like performance with 4c/8t). And I also think they plan to phase out 1600AF and 2600 (same chip really) which means that they need new low-end offers
 
  • Like
Reactions: lightmanek

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
47,656
4,826
126
Wait, so the 3300X and 3100 aren't APUs? They're full-fledged (?) Zen2 CPUs, just with 4C/4T or 4C/8T? o_O

Interesting... we'll have to see how that pans out. Like one of the tweets said, at 4C/8T, with Zen2 improvements, for $99, those CPUs might edge out the 1600AF in gaming in some titles that aren't fully thread-heavy.

Looking forward to them! (If they ever get released in USA, that is. Still waiting on 3500/3500X too.)

WCCFtech mentions AdoredTV claiming that these 4C/8T CPUs are on their own dies with a single CCX. Given the tiny size of the 8C CCXs on 7nm already, and the cost of making new 7nm masks, for what should be a semi-short-lived budget gaming solution, given that Zen3 is right around the corner (?), I highly doubt it.


I think it more likely, that all this time, AMD has been stock-piling 7nm 8C CCX dies, with multiple defects, and using those to release these budget 4C/8T CPUs, as they would have been scrap dies otherwise. And if they have to disable working 6C or 8C dies, then so be it, as 7nm costs have probably come down in the year after the 3600 CPU's release.

Anyways, I look forward to seeing Zen2 CPUs for $100, even if they are 4C/8T. Still a power-house!
 
Last edited:

Gideon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2007
780
1,108
136
I think this is in response to Comet-Lake i3 release (which is actually very decent 7700K like performance with 4c/8t). And I also think they plan to phase out 1600AF and 2600 (same chip really) which means that they need new low-end offers
Well as I posted this Ryzen 1200AF popped up :O

So maybe they'll keep them for a while longer, but looking at the WSA status I'm still confident that these chips will be sold out by the years end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lightmanek

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
499
822
106
I think it more likely, that all this time, AMD has been stock-piling 7nm 8C CCX dies, with multiple defects, and using those to release these budget 4C/8T CPUs, as they would have been scrap dies otherwise. And if they have to disable working 6C or 8C dies, then so be it, as 7nm costs have probably come down in the year after the 3600 CPU's release.
Why? you don't believe they are Matisse 2? :wink: :laughing:

WCCFtech mentions AdoredTV claiming that these 4C/8T CPUs are on their own dies with a single CCX. Given the tiny size of the 8C CCXs on 7nm already, and the cost of making new 7nm masks, for what should be a semi-short-lived budget gaming solution, given that Zen3 is right around the corner (?), I highly doubt it.
Seriously though, why Matisse 2 when it could have been just desktop Renoir with some defective graphics or defective cores.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gideon

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
499
822
106
Listed in AMD's website


1587474422029.png

1587474645928.png

Base and Boost are quite high and it is unlocked. Zen2. Combine this with a cheap B550 it should be good.
No Graphics mentioned.

Coming May 21st with the B550 probably.

Updates:
B550 is delayed by several weeks.

B550 Launch Coming Soon
One of the often talked topics, since January, is when AMD is going to launch its more mid-range B550 motherboards for the Ryzen 3000 processors. Today AMD is announcing that B550 is coming on June 16th this year, with all the main motherboard manufacturers coming out with a variety of models, up to 60 for launch.
That is a lot of boards for a lower end platform.
 
Last edited:

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
499
822
106
I can think of few reasons why not use Renoir for desktop part, main being 8x PCIe (external) probably leaving no lanes to connect to a X570 chipset.
From AT
All of the CPUs are PCIe 3.0 only, rather than PCIe 4.0 like the desktop parts. This is primarily due to power – the double bandwidth of PCIe 4.0 requires more power, and given that storage or graphics rarely need peak speeds, AMD felt the product portfolio would prefer battery life in this regard. Each chip has sixteen PCIe 3.0 lanes, split such that x8 is available for a graphics card, and two x4 links for storage.
Since Zen+ like 3400G (I tried it and it worked ) works on X570 I think it will be OK.
I bought a 3400G to sit on my X570 board while waiting for my 3900X for a month to arrive :). I even stick in a Graphics card RX5700XT

Although a B450 or even B550 might be better value for money in this case.

1587479613702.png

But 3400G has 20 PCIe lanes though compared to 16 of Renoir ... :nomouth:
 
Last edited:

Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
297
263
136
I think this is in response to Comet-Lake i3 release (which is actually very decent 7700K like performance with 4c/8t). And I also think they plan to phase out 1600AF and 2600 (same chip really) which means that they need new low-end offers
No, as far it is very cheep to produce(it is) as low end 6/12 CPU.It is very hilariously, that we can even think about it as low end CPU.

Ryzen 3 3300X, now we can remember AdoredTV Ryzen 3000 leak from December 2018.Naming is corect, so this CPU is planed long time ago. OK it is not 6/12 CPU( 100$ for that kind of CPU was a completely unrealistic price), but hey naming is the same or the leak was accurate.

 
Last edited:

Gideon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2007
780
1,108
136
Listed in AMD's website


View attachment 19954

View attachment 19955

Base and Boost are quite high and it is unlocked. Zen2. Combine this with a cheap B550 it should be good.
No Graphics mentioned.

Coming May 21st with the B550 probably.

Updates:
B550 is delayed by several weeks.



That is a lot of boards for a lower end platform.

Wow 16MB of L3! So it cant be renoir (8MB tops). I'm still surprised they manage to sell Matisse so cheap (it either is this or new die as it also support PCIe 4)

As for Renoir, i think it actually supports Pcie 4, it was just removed from mobile SKUs for power reasons
 
  • Like
Reactions: DisEnchantment

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
499
822
106
the leak was accurate.
That thumbnail says 5GHz+, 16 Cores, Navi GPU chiplets... so idk.

Wow 16MB of L3! So it cant be renoir (8MB tops). I'm still surprised they manage to sell Matisse so cheap (it either is this or new die as it also support PCIe 4)

As for Renoir, i think it actually supports Pcie 4, it was just removed from mobile SKUs for power reasons
They are not Renoir indeed. The discussion was about the claim of AdoredTV who said that AMD is designing Matisse 2 with 4C/8T CPUs single die chips which is unknown if this has some truth at all.
But these chips are using 1 IOD and 1CCD. It is a 3700X with half the Cores not working. AMD has amassed enough defective chiplets at this point to supply the market.
 

Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
297
263
136
That thumbnail says 5GHz+, 16 Cores, Navi GPU chiplets... so idk.


They are not Renoir indeed. The discussion was about the claim of AdoredTV who said that AMD is designing Matisse 2 with 4C/8T CPUs single die chips which is unknown if this has some truth at all.
But these chips are using 1 IOD and 1CCD. It is a 3700X with half the Cores not working. AMD has amassed enough defective chiplets at this point to supply the market.
It is a thumbnail, click on the video and you will get the related information.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY