Something to consider when pushing housing density.

[Moonbeam]

Wut

Think of a cheese wheel infested with mites. They are as happy as Larry until the wheel collapses because they have eaten all the internal support.

 

[brycejones]

Think of a cheese wheel infested with mites. They are as happy as Larry until the wheel collapses because they have eaten all the internal support.

The irony of you promoting sprawl and using this analogy is pretty funny.

 

[sdifox]

You are funny. You took something I said to reflect back to you the absurdity of your thinking and called it demented. I agree.

I said you want to see nature just move your butt to nature and you decided to ask for a law. I didn't make you do that, so how is it my fault?

 

[Moonbeam]

The irony of you promoting sprawl and using this analogy is pretty funny.

This is a statement you make on the assumption it means something. Please explain why it is funny not just that it is. Maybe you just can't see the relevance. Mite development in a cheese wheel will lead to collapse. The natural world maintains biological balance. The cheese in a cheese wheel does not regenerate new resources to consume. It takes a dairy farm and a cheese factory for that. That is all done for free by nature that is harmonious balance. Pig farms are environmental disasters but the wild pig population creates a completely different set of problems.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think people who don’t live in cities are ignorant of what they actually are. For example this is a ten minute walk from my apartment. View attachment 89930
This is a 15 minute walk from my apartment. View attachment 89931
Nature is easy to find!

Nitpick, that's an artificial water feature which benefits fish, maybe turtles, and birds. Without human intervention it'll likely fail as an ecosystem. When I talk about nature I talk about hundreds to thousands of square miles of unbroken forest, plain, or swamp, where everything from fungi to apex predators are unmolested.

I acknowledge that I'm talking about state and federal reserved land, I also acknowledge that those are at best 'accepted' based on perceived tourist value and to keep tree-huggers off the state/fed's back, and at worst abused with eminent domain and crisscrossed with roads and 'visitors centers' which crack the whole ecosystem apart into micropreserves.

 

[sdifox]

Nitpick, that's an artificial water feature which benefits fish, maybe turtles, and birds. Without human intervention it'll likely fail as an ecosystem. When I talk about nature I talk about hundreds to thousands of square miles of unbroken forest, plain, or swamp, where everything from fungi to apex predators are unmolested.

I acknowledge that I'm talking about state and federal reserved land, I also acknowledge that those are at best 'accepted' based on perceived tourist value and to keep tree-huggers off the state/fed's back, and at worst abused with eminent domain and crisscrossed with roads and 'visitors centers' which crack the whole ecosystem apart into micropreserves.

This big enough for ya? About 3000 sq mi

Algonquin Provincial Park - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[brycejones]

This is a statement you make on the assumption it means something. Please explain why it is funny not just that it is. Maybe you just can't see the relevance. Mite development in a cheese wheel will lead to collapse. The natural world maintains biological balance. The cheese in a cheese wheel does not regenerate new resources to consume. It takes a dairy farm and a cheese factory for that. That is all done for free by nature that is harmonious balance. Pig farms are environmental disasters but the wild pig population creates a completely different set of problems.

yawn

 

[Moonbeam]

I said you want to see nature just move your butt to nature and you decided to ask for a law. I didn't make you do that, so how is it my fault?

It's like this: You told me to move my butt into nature if I want to see it. Me wanting to see it has nothing to do with anything. I am not talking about personal needs. I am suggesting a need that every healthy mind will need to have to remain healthy. This is about you not me.

You may not know that you have needs you don't see. So I am alerting you to that possibility. In order to show you how upside down your thinking is on this matter, the notion that I am expressing my needs, I expressed a stupid idea of a need to call attention to the neediness you see in me. I made up a need out of thin air, just as you did when you imagined my need that was not there, that I will comply with your command to move out to the forest if children are not allowed to grow up in cities.

How preposterous could a demand like that be? As preposterous as the notion that I was talking about my needs which was your accusation. Do I think there is a mental health issue with children growing up in unnatural cities. I think their might be. Does that mean I want a law passed to take children away from their parents and sent to the country to be raised by God knows who, certainly not.

So all this is your fault because you tried to suggest that what I am saying is all about me and what I want and that what I want is to live in the forest. That sounds OK to me but not something I need. Trees block out the sun. I would prefer meadow land and trees, a mix. But for me this is only a dream. I stay where I am because I have obligations that tie me to my current place of residence. I don't think only of what I want.

 

[sdifox]

It's like this: You told me to move my butt into nature if I want to see it. Me wanting to see it has nothing to do with anything. I am not talking about personal needs. I am suggesting a need that every healthy mind will need to have to remain healthy. This is about you not me.

You may not know that you have needs you don't see. So I am alerting you to that possibility. In order to show you how upside down your thinking is on this matter, the notion that I am expressing my needs, I expressed a stupid idea of a need to call attention to the neediness you see in me. I made up a need out of thin air, just as you did when you imagined my need that was not there, that I will comply with your command to move out to the forest if children are not allowed to grow up in cities.

How preposterous could a demand like that be? As preposterous as the notion that I was talking about my needs which was your accusation. Do I think there is a mental health issue with children growing up in unnatural cities. I think their might be. Does that mean I want a law passed to take children away from their parents and sent to the country to be raised by God knows who, certainly not.

So all this is your fault because you tried to suggest that what I am saying is all about me and what I want and that what I want is to live in the forest. That sounds OK to me but not something I need. Trees block out the sun. I would prefer meadow land and trees, a mix. But for me this is only a dream. I stay where I am because I have obligations that tie me to my current place of residence. I don't think only of what I want.

But I do have nature nearby, woods are 50m away from my front door. And I definitely live in a city. Demanding people live in the woods is crazy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

This big enough for ya? About 3000 sq mi

Algonquin Provincial Park - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yeah, pity you have to go north of the wall to get to it, isn't it? America used to have vast, vast tracts of wild land, just like Canadia does.

 

[sdifox]

Yeah, pity you have to go north of the wall to get to it, isn't it? America used to have vast, vast tracts of wild land, just like Canadia does.

There are many state parks as well no? I have no idea which state you are at but surely you can google.

Also Canada has a lot of forrests because it is too damn cold to live in them.

 

[Moonbeam]

yawn

Allow me to suggest more mental exercise so you don't get fatigued so easily.

 

[Moonbeam]

But I do have nature nearby, woods are 50m away from my front door. And I definitely live in a city.

Again, this is not about where you live. I am happy for you. Sounds like it beats the heck out of where I live. I am trying to share some information some are suggesting is true for its relevance to the homelessness problem. Plans based on faulty information lead to unintended, unforeseen, consequences. Heads up for what it's worth.

 

[brycejones]

Allow me to suggest more mental exercise so you don't fatigue so easily.

it’s your never ending self important bloviating.

 

[sdifox]

Again, this is not about where you live. I am happy for you. Sounds like it beats the heck out of where I live. I am trying to share some information some are suggesting is true for its relevance to the homelessness problem. Plans based on faulty information lead to unintended, unforeseen, consequences. Heads up for what it's worth.

By your study, you are better off living in the woods anyway, so go camp in the woods like the homeless people. Your brain will thank you. Rest of us want municipal services and those are not offered in the wilderness.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There are many state parks as well no? I have no idea which state you are at but surely you can google.

Also Canada has a lot of forrests because it is too damn cold to live in them.

Yep, nice, cordoned, geographically separated parks, free of anything larger than a racoon (or deer which we shoot at). Special mention for the Adirondacks. There should be one in every state, though.

Actually I'd be good with that. Adirondack's is about 1/3rd of NY. I say we carve out 1/3rd of every state, deny all building in it.

 

[Moonbeam]

By your study, you are better off living in the woods anyway, so go camp in the woods like the homeless people. Your brain will thank you. Rest of us want municipal services and those are not offered in the wilderness.

Whenever you find yourself hoist by your own petard narrow the topic to something unrelated to the conversation. The link uses the example of a forest as a place to where the natural world can be experienced. The study used the woods as an example. There are millions of other ecological niches in which the natural world can be experienced. But you go right ahead and make it all about being in a forest even if you missed it looking at only the trees.

 

[K1052]

Parking minimums and certain other development standards like lot setbacks and floor area ratios are things I'm looking at either reducing or just getting rid of.

Edit: Should probably note that this is no means just my decision. Almost everything that I'll be implementing has to be fully transparent and needs education and buy-off from the community. A lot of public workshops and public hearings are in my future lol

Hopefully the community is also made aware of the risks of not adopting a compliant housing element if they don't like any of the options.

 

[sdifox]

As Director for my City's Community Development Department, I'm in a unique position to direct how our small little City is going to plan for future growth, including housing. In CA, higher density is currently king. Our Housing Element I'm currently working on will require at least 263 housing starts within the next 7 years. That can be implement in a variety of ways including annexing property and zoning them single family, medium to high density or something that I've been seeing over the last decade or so would be mixed use. This would allow commercial and residential development concurrently, so something like commercial on the bottom and residential above it. At some point in the past, this type of development stopped and is now making a come back. In areas where it already existed, it was just grandfathered in.

The break down of my 263 housing starts is something like 33% very low and low income housing, and another 38% medium income housing, with the balance being upper income. Based on this info, I'm looking at a majority medium to high density housing, with SFHs being on the low end. But we still have to plan for SFHs. My plan is to amend our zoning code to allow for smaller lot sizes for those SFHs. We'll still incorporate higher densities by putting more units/acre, but still be able to provide houses and or condos/townhouses instead of just apartments. I'm excited to see how I can help my little town grow. I think my biggest challenge will be getting our elected officials on board with that plan. I think that's one thing that hasn't really been brought up in this thread. Getting your local elected officials and commissioners to approve drastic changes to how you plan is probably one of your biggest challenges in land use.

Edit: 263 starts may not sound like a lot, but if you don't have developers knocking on your door it can be a challenge.

Do you develop your own Education Development Charge or do you pay consultants to do it?

 

[sdifox]

Yep, nice, cordoned, geographically separated parks, free of anything larger than a racoon (or deer which we shoot at). Special mention for the Adirondacks. There should be one in every state, though.

Actually I'd be good with that. Adirondack's is about 1/3rd of NY. I say we carve out 1/3rd of every state, deny all building in it.

Eh? Your state parks don't have wild life's in it? Deers are in the woods near me, they come to my house sometimes. We are not allowed to even remove raccoons from our house if it has nested and have babies...

This one is maybe ten min from me. And it's walking distance from the city's biggest mall.

Rouge National Urban Park

Plan your visit to Rouge National Urban Park in the Greater Toronto Area. Discover nature, culture, agriculture, activities, how to get here and more.

parks.canada.ca

This one is maybe 4km from my house

Milne Dam Conservation Area 2022

Milne Dam Conservation Area is a 305 acre park in Markham which we have visited a few times. There are two previous blogs which talk about the park and the new bridges that were added across the Ro…

hikingthegta.com

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Eh? Your state parks don't have wild life's in it? Deers are in the woods near me, they come to my house sometimes. We are not allowed to even remove raccoons from our house if it has nested and have babies...

This one is maybe ten min from me. And it's walking distance from the city's biggest mall.

Rouge National Urban Park

Plan your visit to Rouge National Urban Park in the Greater Toronto Area. Discover nature, culture, agriculture, activities, how to get here and more.

parks.canada.ca

This one is maybe 4km from my house

Milne Dam Conservation Area 2022

Milne Dam Conservation Area is a 305 acre park in Markham which we have visited a few times. There are two previous blogs which talk about the park and the new bridges that were added across the Ro…

hikingthegta.com

Wildlife does exist here but it's muted, limited in scope, unable to thrive. Consider it from the perspective of the wildlife... no matter where you go, a building is in sight. No matter how wooded an area is, there's a good chance at least one person (predator) comes traipsing through every day. No matter how deep in the woods you are, you hear vehicles constantly. The few bits of wildlife we see exists in spite of us, but just barely. The small tracts of land we build homes and roads on used to support dozens of apex predators, hundreds of omni/herbivores, hundreds of birds, reptiles, and millions of insects. But yeah it's cool we kept the less annoying (or tasty) animals around that are willing to reproduce near us.

 

[dank69]

You can think better than that, dank. You know perfectly well that I am not talking about how much exposure to nature I need. I know perfectly well how to rejuvenate thereby, and mental health needs such contact can supply. It happens that the nature of how I perceive the world means I don't require much and I got it when it most counted, as a child. I am not trying to force anything on anybody. What I am saying has nothing to do with what people do with their land. I am saying that the health benefits of exposure to the natural world may in fact, as the science in the link I presented implies, may not represent an optional good thing that makes people feel good, but that it might be actually vital and necessary to mental health. Unawareness of that fact will suggest solutions to the problem of homelessness that may be psychologically detrimental without that potential fact being factored in.

I would advise you, with sea level rise being what it is, not to build on a cliff next to the sea. Do so at your own risk but but I would want you to know the risk.. Now that's force for you. I will soon have the world of cliff dwellers down on my head. Kill the messenger, please.

It may be vital or necessary to mental health but that doesn't mean everyone needs a back yard. Correct me if that isn't what you're saying, I haven't read this entire thread. Kids can get their 30 minutes a day from a nearby park, if it turns out that 30 minutes is indeed the magic number. Even if science were able to determine an exact quantity where benefits turn into diminishing returns it isn't like we can mandate exposure to nature.

 

[Moonbeam]

It may be vital or necessary to mental health but that doesn't mean everyone needs a back yard. Correct me if that isn't what you're saying, I haven't read this entire thread. Kids can get their 30 minutes a day from a nearby park, if it turns out that 30 minutes is indeed the magic number. Even if science were able to determine an exact quantity where benefits turn into diminishing returns it isn't like we can mandate exposure to nature.

Not what I am saying. I am of the opinion we need to know more before we can know if mandates should even be in the cards, but we mandate a lot of things especially stuff dangerous to children’s lives.

Just saying.

 

[sdifox]

Not what I am saying. I am of the opinion we need to know more before we can know if mandates should even be in the cards, but we mandate a lot of things especially stuff dangerous to children’s lives.

Just saying.

This just in, more housing unit is dangerous to children's lives. They should live in the woods without municipal services.

 

[sdifox]

Whenever you find yourself hoist by your own petard narrow the topic to something unrelated to the conversation. The link uses the example of a forest as a place to where the natural world can be experienced. The study used the woods as an example. There are millions of other ecological niches in which the natural world can be experienced. But you go right ahead and make it all about being in a forest even if you missed it looking at only the trees.

And we don't want to build houses near the nature because that is not where people live? You know, human civilization?

You know why cavemen lives in caves? Because nature is dangerous.