Something to consider when pushing housing density.

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thestrangebrew1

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2011
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Hopefully the community is also made aware of the risks of not adopting a compliant housing element if they don't like any of the options.
They are. We've been non-compliant for the last 5 cycles and as a result, we haven't been able to go after grant funding. This was a result of an inept City Manager who has since retired. Our current city manager is much more competent and realizes the predicament we're in so he's been in the Council's ear for the last 2 years about it. Since then, we've held several workshops around the city to educate citizens.
 
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thestrangebrew1

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2011
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Do you develop your own Education Development Charge or do you pay consultants to do it?
For a project as big as updating a City's General Plan, regardless of the City's population, you're going to want to have a few consultants doing the work. The educating will be built into whatever contracts we have with said consultants. I'm pretty much a one man show. I have one staff that handles permit intake but that's it. So I'll rely on the consultants to do most of the education heavy lifting in the form of workshops, but I'll be present every step of the way.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,371
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For a project as big as updating a City's General Plan, regardless of the City's population, you're going to want to have a few consultants doing the work. The educating will be built into whatever contracts we have with said consultants. I'm pretty much a one man show. I have one staff that handles permit intake but that's it. So I'll rely on the consultants to do most of the education heavy lifting in the form of workshops, but I'll be present every step of the way.
EDC is about how much you charge developers in order to provide new school for the new students, assuming the school boards would do enrolment projection or hire out.
 

thestrangebrew1

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2011
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EDC is about how much you charge developers in order to provide new school for the new students, assuming the school boards would do enrolment projection or hire out.
Ha sorry, I'd never heard of it that way. We just call them impact fees. The school district(s) have their own formulas to charge per livable or commercial structure. I believe our district is $4.35/square foot. The fees they collect go into a district pot. I'm sure the City has other mechanisms to collect money for new schools, but this will be my first rodeo and I haven't learned those yet.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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EDC is about how much you charge developers in order to provide new school for the new students, assuming the school boards would do enrolment projection or hire out.
Some of the impact fees seem like red herrings, ways to create additional development roadblocks, and a way to keep the local government from raising everyone's property taxes to pay for stuff. This is especially considering that (at least in my area), total enrollment in many local schools is down from the peak of the mid-2000s, and that building a few hundred units doesn't mean you're immediately going to get a few hundred students all at the same grade levels moving in.
 

thestrangebrew1

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2011
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I've never had to deal with developing a new school. When I was with the County, we had the Office of Education which would work out the details of financing new schools other than the impact fees we collected through permitting. We haven't had a school built here since probably 1970 so no one here is going to know the other mechanisms to obtain funds. We'd probably just rely on the district for that.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,371
17,551
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Some of the impact fees seem like red herrings, ways to create additional development roadblocks, and a way to keep the local government from raising everyone's property taxes to pay for stuff. This is especially considering that (at least in my area), total enrollment in many local schools is down from the peak of the mid-2000s, and that building a few hundred units doesn't mean you're immediately going to get a few hundred students all at the same grade levels moving in.

It's passed onto the consumer. This is fairly standard practice and not really a barrier to development.

<---- used to be in the education funding sector.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,371
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I've never had to deal with developing a new school. When I was with the County, we had the Office of Education which would work out the details of financing new schools other than the impact fees we collected through permitting. We haven't had a school built here since probably 1970 so no one here is going to know the other mechanisms to obtain funds. We'd probably just rely on the district for that.
Well the school districts do the education funding bit and the city does the development charge for municipal services.

Lots of places just outsource to consultants.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,960
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It's passed onto the consumer. This is fairly standard practice and not really a barrier to development.

<---- used to be in the education funding sector.
Yes, it's passed on, but what it really means is that the per unit costs go up, effectively raising the minimum price they'd have to sell at to cover the fees.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,371
17,551
126
Yes, it's passed on, but what it really means is that the per unit costs go up, effectively raising the minimum price they'd have to sell at to cover the fees.
Who do you suggest pay for the land the new school needed for a new development if not the people moving there?
 
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Dec 10, 2005
27,960
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Who do you suggest pay for the new school needed for a new development if not the people moving there?
The benefits of educating children fall on all of society and community, so it's only reasonable for the community as a whole to pick up the tab through their taxes. New residents also pay taxes, so it's not like the municipalities are missing out there. And as I said, it's not like a single new development is going to overload a school system, and school enrollments are down, so existing schools should presumably have the physical space for additional students.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,371
17,551
126
The benefits of educating children fall on all of society and community, so it's only reasonable for the community as a whole to pick up the tab through their taxes. New residents also pay taxes, so it's not like the municipalities are missing out there. And as I said, it's not like a single new development is going to overload a school system, and school enrollments are down, so existing schools should presumably have the physical space for additional students.
It's for the land, the school proper is from education tax. If you don't need a new school lot, obviously you don't charge for it.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Huh? I've never advocated for tearing down a single thing. I just stand for the idea that if people choose to build more densely that should not be banned.
You've said many times that people should be able to tear down SFH and put up multi family. You keep saying everything except SFH is banned in OKC because there are large chunks of SFH zoning, where the land has already been developed with SFH. (Which BTW only about 25% of OKC is SFH). The vast majority of empty land is zoned agricultural, which gets rezoned to whatever a developer wants when they want it. There are also large areas of developed SFH that have been rezoned to multi-family to encourage denser infill. Yet, housing prices shot way up even without any "bans."

Here is a new development in a southern suburb. Rezoned from agricultural to PUD, they could put as much multifamily on it as they wanted, but they are (stupidly) giving half the land to SFH. I really don't think zoning is the only issue here. Also because it's Oklahoma, I'm sure the apartments will all be just standard 3 story buildings with a ton of surface lots, no 5 on 1 construction for walkability.

But to your other points, the multi-family is averaging 46 units/acre even though it medium density, while the SFH averages 5.2 units/acre (which is much tighter than normal). Obviously, the multi family takes up less room. It also provides a lot of people that can help keep the commercial areas in business.

1701925947542.jpeg
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,463
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Because housing is a human right and nobody should be forced to lose or be moved out of where they establish their lives, it is incumbent on the state to either provide the income to stay where you have established a life or the housing itself.

Completion is hate and hate is fear, the fear of insecurity that breeds selfishness and greed. In America we have all been conditioned by the desire to become rich to hate socialism. But in places where that has been resisted there is greater happiness:

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,635
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Because housing is a human right and nobody should be forced to lose or be moved out of where they establish their lives, it is incumbent on the state to either provide the income to stay where you have established a life or the housing itself.

Completion is hate and hate is fear, the fear of insecurity that breeds selfishness and greed. In America we have all been conditioned by the desire to become rich to hate socialism. But in places where that has been resisted there is greater happiness:

False. Humans should have a right to shelter but that does not mean a right to any one particular shelter of their choosing, regardless of the expense to others.

It definitely doesn’t mean that once you set up shop somewhere it’s the government’s responsibility to maintain you in the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed.

It most certainly doesn’t mean that you should get special tax preferences shouldered by those struggling to buy their first house.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,463
6,692
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False. Humans should have a right to shelter but that does not mean a right to any one particular shelter of their choosing, regardless of the expense to others.

It definitely doesn’t mean that once you set up shop somewhere it’s the government’s responsibility to maintain you in the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed.

It most certainly doesn’t mean that you should get special tax preferences shouldered by those struggling to buy their first house.
No one shelter is acquired at the expense of others. It was acquired by people struggling to rent their first apartment or buy their first house, which now, out of landlord greed or economic area advantage, has risen out of proportion to the rest of the nations sales and rental prices. This means that for some who have struggled to acquire a place to live, you will gladly push them our of what they worked hard to be able to acquire. Anybody paying taxes is shouldering the burden of people who do not have taxable income. They pay no taxes up to a certain amount. The point, however, is that once again you are unable to think outside the system that creates the problem you hope to fix. There is no reason other than fear that blinds us to government owned and subsidized housing. As I have said it is scientists not capitalistic chaos that should be building cities. Or just give people the money to buy or rent without a need for a job in areas of the country where homes and rents are low due to a lack of jobs. They will soon be engaged in extra ways to make money and bring up the quality of life in economically distressed areas. You just want the rats to win the rat race.

The way we get affordable housing, a joke by any measure where I live, is by making the developers set aside a portion of what they build for that purpose. How fair is that, making them suffer when they could sell those condos for far more?

The lifestyle to which I became accustomed is, owing to a massive influx of people and building, now far worse than it was when I bought and the government does little to help. It was the people who voted for controlling the rise in property tax forcing the government's hand, something I voted against may I remind you.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
6,250
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False. Humans should have a right to shelter but that does not mean a right to any one particular shelter of their choosing, regardless of the expense to others.

It definitely doesn’t mean that once you set up shop somewhere it’s the government’s responsibility to maintain you in the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed.

It most certainly doesn’t mean that you should get special tax preferences shouldered by those struggling to buy their first house.
Cities should consider building/designating some infrastructure to support encampments. Put a wall/barrier to prevent the eyesore aspect of them. With some basic amenities, like an Address, Mailbox, basic plumbing you could help the Homeless not to descend into as much squalor. Some people may even be able to hold a Job and Work their way out.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,960
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Cities should consider building/designating some infrastructure to support encampments. Put a wall/barrier to prevent the eyesore aspect of them. With some basic amenities, like an Address, Mailbox, basic plumbing you could help the Homeless not to descend into as much squalor. Some people may even be able to hold a Job and Work their way out.
Or we could just build housing of all different types instead of accepting mass outdoor encampments or trying to do some building by building central planning. (Though, we should also have more public restrooms).

The lowest rung of housing used to be the single-room occupancy, but cities have effectively outlawed those. Thus, if you can't afford a studio or find a roommate situation, you're out on the street.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
6,250
126
Or we could just build housing of all different types instead of accepting mass outdoor encampments or trying to do some building by building central planning. (Though, we should also have more public restrooms).

The lowest rung of housing used to be the single-room occupancy, but cities have effectively outlawed those. Thus, if you can't afford a studio or find a roommate situation, you're out on the street.
I agree, except that they seem unable to. Or at least they haven't been. Instead, city after city just seems to eventually get tired of them then chase them out. Giving them a place to go on your terms and some specific infrastructure can improve the situation for everyone.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,463
6,692
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Or we could just build housing of all different types instead of accepting mass outdoor encampments or trying to do some building by building central planning. (Though, we should also have more public restrooms).

The lowest rung of housing used to be the single-room occupancy, but cities have effectively outlawed those. Thus, if you can't afford a studio or find a roommate situation, you're out on the street.
Cities are mass encampments so it is the degree of amenities where arguments center. A mass encampment with amenities for hygiene and warm shelter with some level of privacy would be better than sleeping under a bridge for many, I would suspect. But leaving that aside, where has your objection to central planning come from? As I have said, the problem of homelessness is, in my mind, not solvable within the current system. As long as solutions require a change in the consciousness and opinion of voters, why not push for the best in conscious evolution? A universal livable wage or government owned housing or both would have the greatest promise, seems to me.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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I agree, except that they seem unable to. Or at least they haven't been. Instead, city after city just seems to eventually get tired of them then chase them out. Giving them a place to go on your terms and some specific infrastructure can improve the situation for everyone.
Cities have hollowed out their governing capacity for decades, turning to contracting and the non-profit industrial complex, so I wouldn't expect cities to do much themselves. However, they can enable these older forms of housing through broad land use and permitting reforms.

These reforms could allow people to redevelop old or vacant properties to hold more units of housing, allow new hotels to be constructed and let older hotels find second life as SROs, etc... You might still need government support for some initiatives, but we should remember that many of the same land use hurdles that block private development also inhibit government action.

Unfortunately, this situation has been decades in the making, spans multiple levels of government across large metro areas, and thus won't be fixed overnight.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,040
24,351
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Cities are mass encampments so it is the degree of amenities where arguments center. A mass encampment with amenities for hygiene and warm shelter with some level of privacy would be better than sleeping under a bridge for many, I would suspect. But leaving that aside, where has your objection to central planning come from? As I have said, the problem of homelessness is, in my mind, not solvable within the current system. As long as solutions require a change in the consciousness and opinion of voters, why not push for the best in conscious evolution? A universal livable wage or government owned housing or both would have the greatest promise, seems to me.
Cities are mass encampments.

You been hitting that crack-free crack again? Since I know you don't do drugs.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,067
12,464
136
Cities are mass encampments.

You been hitting that crack-free crack again? Since I know you don't do drugs.
i mean it's moonbeam. what did you expect?

i'm sure moonie has a magical idea about how to increase population density without cities existing, but you hate yourself so much you don't see the obvious solution.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,040
24,351
136
i mean it's moonbeam. what did you expect?

i'm sure moonie has a magical idea about how to increase population density without cities existing, but you hate yourself so much you don't see the obvious solution.
Holy shit I just busted out laughing when I read the last line, my dog looked up at me from the couch while we watch the Giants suck
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Cities should consider building/designating some infrastructure to support encampments. Put a wall/barrier to prevent the eyesore aspect of them. With some basic amenities, like an Address, Mailbox, basic plumbing you could help the Homeless not to descend into as much squalor. Some people may even be able to hold a Job and Work their way out.
I heard the San Diego mayor talking about establishing encampments this week, something Seattle did years ago. I think it's a good idea. But I started thinking, there are always a ton of abandoned warehouses around cities, seems like cities could buy some and fix them up a bit allow for nice/bigger encampments. Obviously this shouldn't be seen as the solution, but it's a lot better than people sleeping on the streets in 10 degree weather.