Some reasons why you should be a liberal rather than a conservative

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
THE JEWISH VIEW OF ABORTION

Since only 2 passages in the Bible deal with the death of a fetus and since both are in the OT, lets look at the Jewish view, since they often study the OT in much more depth and have a better understanding than Christians, since it is so fundamental to their faith.

The Jewish view is also important to discuss to show that one religious belief does not have the right to take away the rights of another religious belief. To many Christians and most Jews, there is no soul till birth, and the only scripture dealing with the issue, clearly shows taking the life of a fetus is not murder.

I respect the Catholic declaration that abortion is wrong and Catholics can be ex- communicating for it. However, the point is not to impose Catholic doctrine on other Christians and Jews whose religious beliefs follow more closely scripture rather than Catholic tradition. This is not a Catholic attack but a discussion on why they or any religious group should have no say in controlling the reproductive rights of non-Catholics, especially Jews.

I've reviewed many Jewish texts and they are surprisingly in agreement on the basic issue. One is Judaism Confronts Contemporary Issues by Alex J. Goldman. Mr Goldman, rabbi of Temple Beth El, Stanford Connecticut was ordained at the Hebrew Theological College, attended Dropsie College for Hebrew and received his J.D. from De Paul University College of Law. He served two terms as Editor of the Rabbinical Assembly Proceedings and has written extensively in Jewish history and created many liturgical aids.

The rest of this post is either direct quotes or paraphrases from this text.

Every group of Judaism agrees unequivocally that when the life of the mother is at stake, or even threatened, the fetus not only CAN but MUST be aborted. Danger to life includes psychological, as well as physical hazard. Both Physical and mental health stand on the same level of concern. When an abortion is performed in such a case it is therapeutic, and therefore absolutely permissible. It is almost conceded, even from the Orthodox position, and the word almost is stressed, that the risk to mental health, as well as to physical health is included under this general heading hazard to life. He points out that the fetus is not deemed a living being (nefresh in Hebrew), so no murder.

It is pointed out none of the denominations of Judaism would allow indiscriminate abortion without justifiable case. Life was very highly valued due to the need for more children and more Jews. This is because of the HEBREW CULTURE, not because of some greater Biblical morality. The Hebrew were strong pro-family and were even willing to allow incest-type behaviors just so that people could carry the family line. Therefore, an abortion would probably have been considered a blasphemy of not willing to carry the family line.

But, the women's mental well being in not wanting a child is a justifiable cause in some but not all Jewish denominations. The question is, What is abortion - murder of the fetus or the removal of a piece of tissue from the woman s body?

Even today, female soldiers in the Isreal Defense Forces are allowed two free abortions during their two-year stint. Two-thirds of abortions are done as a means of birth control.

Only one source in the entire Bible relates to abortion. (He quotes Ex 21:22-23 as I have discussed in other posts.) Literally and by interpretation, this passage poses the basic legal principal that the destruction of the fetus is not to be considered punishable murder. Death of the unborn child is punishable by fine only, and capital punishment does not apply. Only if the mother is harmed, i.e. killed, does the law of capital punishment take effect.

Even Dr. Immanuel Jakeobovits, Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom and leading Orthodox Jew (most conservative), agrees saying capital punishment applies to a murderer, but this applies to a man not a fetus. The unborn child is entirely different. While causing a miscarriage is indeed a property crime, it is not murder.

Catholic Misinterpretation Specifically Discussed: Rabbi Jakeobovits asserts that the Jewish position contrasts with the Catholic position due to the mistranslation of the word harm that has been retained and repeated which has hardened the Catholic position. In the Hebrew, the word a-son means harm that is, not a fatal injury. A mistranslation of this word in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible, took it to mean imperfectly formed. This would mean that a miscarriage when the fetus was perfectly formed (about to be born), would incur the same penalty as murder. This mistranslation was later adopted as canon law. In time, the distinction between formed and unformed evaporated, leading to the one conclusion, that the killing of any fruit, from the moment of conception, was punishable as a capital offense. This distinction between the Catholic and Orthodox Judaism is clear-cut, whatever the conditions in which an abortion takes place, the crime, is not a capital offense.

Talmudic Basis Is Clearly No Soul Till Birth The Mishnah, composing the first part of the Talmud, which provides a source for understanding the Jewish position, assumes that life arises only at birth. If a women has great difficulty in giving birth it is permitted to cut up the child within her womb and extract it limb by limb...But if the greater part (or head) has come out, it must not be touched because one life must not be taken to save another.

So long as the fetus, or the most important part of it, its head, has not come out into the world, it is not called nefresh, a human soul....an unborn fetus is not to be considered a living being, and therefore the taking of its life cannot be termed murder. (He also references Time Magazine, The Desperate Dilemma of Abortion , October 13, 1967, which states Many Jews accept abortion because they regard a fetus as an organic part of the mother and not as a living soul until its birth.

The law is defined: before birth, the embryo is not a person; from the moment of birth on, it is; the disposition of the soul, being pure to begin with, in unaffected. The Jewish and Catholic doctrine have once again parted company.

Different views were held in ancient time regarding when the soul enters the body. Aristotle says 40th or 80th day after conception depending whether male or female. Plato holds at birth position which the Catholic Church followed. The Stoics and Jews maintained that the soul entered the body at birth. Roman jurists and common law viewed the soul is not in the fetus until birth.

The Reformed Jewish (most liberal) view on abortion legislation has been clearly stated. Existing state statutes do not provide sufficiently for social and medical reasons to terminate a pregnancy. Existing laws penalize the poor who cannot afford services available to the more affluent. The hazards of illegal abortions take a tragic and needless toll of life.

The Commission on Synagogue Relations, stated The CCAR considers as religiously valid and humane such new legislation that: a) recognizes the preservation of a mother s emotional health to be as important as her physical well-being; and b) properly considers the danger of anticipated physical and mental damage; and c) permits abortion in pregnancies resulting from sexual crime....We strongly urge the broad liberalization of abortion laws in the various states and call upon our members to works towards that end.

Other texts reviewed:

From Love & Sex, A Modern Jewish Prospective by Robert Gordis, Professor of Bible and Rapaport Professor in the Philosophies of Religion at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America: Rabbi Ben-Zion Uziel, former Chief Rabbi of Israel, declared abortion is permitted even for a very thin reason, such as avoiding pain for the mother. The Maimonides take a more conservative view of only to protect women's life. But the twentieth-century authority Rabbi Yehiel Weinberger ruled that the authorities who differ with the Maimonides are in the majority, and therefore, agreed with Rabbi Jacob Emden in permitting abortion to spare the mother pain. Indeed, the broad interpretation of the rabbinic attitude is entirely justified, since it is a fundamental principle of the Mishnah, amply confirmed by modern medicine, that an embryo is not an independent living being.

From On Women and Judaism by Blu Greenberg, a Jewish feminist Views the more conservative view less open to abortion as more due to need to increase Jewish people and traditionally life was so precious since you had to have eight children if you wanted four or five to survive. Concerning abortion on demand, Since there are no traditional Jewish precedents for abortion on demand, one way to maintain some integrity with halakhic framework could be to broaden the interpretation of therapeutic abortion, to extend the principal of precedence of the mother s actual life and health to include serious regard for the quality of life as well. She highly supports the Pro-Choice position from a Jewish historic prospective.

Maybe there is also a moral obligation to allow abortions, especially in the Third World. Pregnancy is one of the leading causes of death of mothers in the third world. It also most certainly causes damage to the mother who lives. It causes diabetes, bladder damage, tearing, scar tissue and can cause emotional damage.

Dave's concluding notes: The bottom line is the Jewish belief is no soul before birth, they clearly interpret Ex 21:22 as I have stated (was a dead miscarried fetus which was a property crime only) and each Jewish women should be allowed her reproductive choices based on her beliefs not be dictated to by a minority opinion of any one group such as the Catholic Church who should not impose its teachings on non-Catholics and should support non-Catholic women's right to all reproductive options.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
THE JEWISH VIEW OF ABORTION

Since only 2 passages in the Bible deal with the death of a fetus and since both are in the OT, lets look at the Jewish view, since they often study the OT in much more depth and have a better understanding than Christians, since it is so fundamental to their faith.

The Jewish view is also important to discuss to show that one religious belief does not have the right to take away the rights of another religious belief. To many Christians and most Jews, there is no soul till birth, and the only scripture dealing with the issue, clearly shows taking the life of a fetus is not murder.

I respect the Catholic declaration that abortion is wrong and Catholics can be ex- communicating for it. However, the point is not to impose Catholic doctrine on other Christians and Jews whose religious beliefs follow more closely scripture rather than Catholic tradition. This is not a Catholic attack but a discussion on why they or any religious group should have no say in controlling the reproductive rights of non-Catholics, especially Jews.

I've reviewed many Jewish texts and they are surprisingly in agreement on the basic issue. One is Judaism Confronts Contemporary Issues by Alex J. Goldman. Mr Goldman, rabbi of Temple Beth El, Stanford Connecticut was ordained at the Hebrew Theological College, attended Dropsie College for Hebrew and received his J.D. from De Paul University College of Law. He served two terms as Editor of the Rabbinical Assembly Proceedings and has written extensively in Jewish history and created many liturgical aids.

The rest of this post is either direct quotes or paraphrases from this text.

Every group of Judaism agrees unequivocally that when the life of the mother is at stake, or even threatened, the fetus not only CAN but MUST be aborted. Danger to life includes psychological, as well as physical hazard. Both Physical and mental health stand on the same level of concern. When an abortion is performed in such a case it is therapeutic, and therefore absolutely permissible. It is almost conceded, even from the Orthodox position, and the word almost is stressed, that the risk to mental health, as well as to physical health is included under this general heading hazard to life. He points out that the fetus is not deemed a living being (nefresh in Hebrew), so no murder.

It is pointed out none of the denominations of Judaism would allow indiscriminate abortion without justifiable case. Life was very highly valued due to the need for more children and more Jews. This is because of the HEBREW CULTURE, not because of some greater Biblical morality. The Hebrew were strong pro-family and were even willing to allow incest-type behaviors just so that people could carry the family line. Therefore, an abortion would probably have been considered a blasphemy of not willing to carry the family line.

But, the women's mental well being in not wanting a child is a justifiable cause in some but not all Jewish denominations. The question is, What is abortion - murder of the fetus or the removal of a piece of tissue from the woman s body?

Even today, female soldiers in the Isreal Defense Forces are allowed two free abortions during their two-year stint. Two-thirds of abortions are done as a means of birth control.

Only one source in the entire Bible relates to abortion. (He quotes Ex 21:22-23 as I have discussed in other posts.) Literally and by interpretation, this passage poses the basic legal principal that the destruction of the fetus is not to be considered punishable murder. Death of the unborn child is punishable by fine only, and capital punishment does not apply. Only if the mother is harmed, i.e. killed, does the law of capital punishment take effect.

Even Dr. Immanuel Jakeobovits, Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom and leading Orthodox Jew (most conservative), agrees saying capital punishment applies to a murderer, but this applies to a man not a fetus. The unborn child is entirely different. While causing a miscarriage is indeed a property crime, it is not murder.

Catholic Misinterpretation Specifically Discussed: Rabbi Jakeobovits asserts that the Jewish position contrasts with the Catholic position due to the mistranslation of the word harm that has been retained and repeated which has hardened the Catholic position. In the Hebrew, the word a-son means harm that is, not a fatal injury. A mistranslation of this word in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible, took it to mean imperfectly formed. This would mean that a miscarriage when the fetus was perfectly formed (about to be born), would incur the same penalty as murder. This mistranslation was later adopted as canon law. In time, the distinction between formed and unformed evaporated, leading to the one conclusion, that the killing of any fruit, from the moment of conception, was punishable as a capital offense. This distinction between the Catholic and Orthodox Judaism is clear-cut, whatever the conditions in which an abortion takes place, the crime, is not a capital offense.

Talmudic Basis Is Clearly No Soul Till Birth The Mishnah, composing the first part of the Talmud, which provides a source for understanding the Jewish position, assumes that life arises only at birth. If a women has great difficulty in giving birth it is permitted to cut up the child within her womb and extract it limb by limb...But if the greater part (or head) has come out, it must not be touched because one life must not be taken to save another.

So long as the fetus, or the most important part of it, its head, has not come out into the world, it is not called nefresh, a human soul....an unborn fetus is not to be considered a living being, and therefore the taking of its life cannot be termed murder. (He also references Time Magazine, The Desperate Dilemma of Abortion , October 13, 1967, which states Many Jews accept abortion because they regard a fetus as an organic part of the mother and not as a living soul until its birth.

The law is defined: before birth, the embryo is not a person; from the moment of birth on, it is; the disposition of the soul, being pure to begin with, in unaffected. The Jewish and Catholic doctrine have once again parted company.

Different views were held in ancient time regarding when the soul enters the body. Aristotle says 40th or 80th day after conception depending whether male or female. Plato holds at birth position which the Catholic Church followed. The Stoics and Jews maintained that the soul entered the body at birth. Roman jurists and common law viewed the soul is not in the fetus until birth.

The Reformed Jewish (most liberal) view on abortion legislation has been clearly stated. Existing state statutes do not provide sufficiently for social and medical reasons to terminate a pregnancy. Existing laws penalize the poor who cannot afford services available to the more affluent. The hazards of illegal abortions take a tragic and needless toll of life.

The Commission on Synagogue Relations, stated The CCAR considers as religiously valid and humane such new legislation that: a) recognizes the preservation of a mother s emotional health to be as important as her physical well-being; and b) properly considers the danger of anticipated physical and mental damage; and c) permits abortion in pregnancies resulting from sexual crime....We strongly urge the broad liberalization of abortion laws in the various states and call upon our members to works towards that end.

Other texts reviewed:

From Love & Sex, A Modern Jewish Prospective by Robert Gordis, Professor of Bible and Rapaport Professor in the Philosophies of Religion at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America: Rabbi Ben-Zion Uziel, former Chief Rabbi of Israel, declared abortion is permitted even for a very thin reason, such as avoiding pain for the mother. The Maimonides take a more conservative view of only to protect women's life. But the twentieth-century authority Rabbi Yehiel Weinberger ruled that the authorities who differ with the Maimonides are in the majority, and therefore, agreed with Rabbi Jacob Emden in permitting abortion to spare the mother pain. Indeed, the broad interpretation of the rabbinic attitude is entirely justified, since it is a fundamental principle of the Mishnah, amply confirmed by modern medicine, that an embryo is not an independent living being.

From On Women and Judaism by Blu Greenberg, a Jewish feminist Views the more conservative view less open to abortion as more due to need to increase Jewish people and traditionally life was so precious since you had to have eight children if you wanted four or five to survive. Concerning abortion on demand, Since there are no traditional Jewish precedents for abortion on demand, one way to maintain some integrity with halakhic framework could be to broaden the interpretation of therapeutic abortion, to extend the principal of precedence of the mother s actual life and health to include serious regard for the quality of life as well. She highly supports the Pro-Choice position from a Jewish historic prospective.

Maybe there is also a moral obligation to allow abortions, especially in the Third World. Pregnancy is one of the leading causes of death of mothers in the third world. It also most certainly causes damage to the mother who lives. It causes diabetes, bladder damage, tearing, scar tissue and can cause emotional damage.

Dave's concluding notes: The bottom line is the Jewish belief is no soul before birth, they clearly interpret Ex 21:22 as I have stated (was a dead miscarried fetus which was a property crime only) and each Jewish women should be allowed her reproductive choices based on her beliefs not be dictated to by a minority opinion of any one group such as the Catholic Church who should not impose its teachings on non-Catholics and should support non-Catholic women's right to all reproductive options.

So then are you Jewish or Christian?
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
One reason is because, as a nation that is mostly Christian, we want to honor the work of Jesus and emulate his life.

Jesus cared for the poor as liberals do. He did not deny them because they were weak or unworthy. He was crucified with thieves, just like the right claims democrats are with it comes to taxing the rich and giving to the poor. That is part of ones religious duty anyway, so what matters if it is also the secular law.

Watch how in everything conservatives say about welfare there is this hate of folk who can't make it on their own, as if being lucky yourself to have capacity and the good fortune to have been born where you can make something of yourself, some how gives you the right of righteous indignation, and some sick need to look down your nose at those who have to struggle. Never mind that some people don't have much in the way of IQ to do lucrative work, or may have been badly damaged, emotionally, as children. Jesus came with his message for these, the meek who will inherit the earth.

So you can be a nice loving liberal or an egotistical pig conservative.

Do not post to tell me I'm trolling or that my thoughts are on a low level. They are posted in P&N which if filled to the brim with idiots. The above, while able to be put far more eloquently, I am sure, is still basic fact.


I dont know why you even bothered posting this...in fact liberals and jesus have absolutely nothing in common. the only time liberals invoke the name of jesus is when they can smear him, or unless they can use him as a means to persuade people to redistribe wealth and power to those who share their agenda.


Jesus would not support rights for Gays, abortion rights, the removal of prayer from our schools, the removal of "under god" from our pledge, the teachings of evolution in our schools, or the legalization of weed.

Liberals are the modern day scribes and pharasees, who try to make it look like they do good, but are just plain evil, and jesus says "Woe unto you"
 
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Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
One line of reasoning could go like this:

There are all kinds of Christians? How can that be. Did Christ come with a message? Was His message that you can think anything you like and support any philosophy you want? I would have thought, myself, if I were a thinker, that there might be a particular philosophy that is Christian and a lot of wrong opinions as to what that particular philosophy is. That would mean that some people who claim to be Christians are Christians and some are practicing a delusional interpretation of what He came to deliver.

Given the fact then, that out here in the world, we have real Christians and tons of phonies who think they are Christians, we can set up some sort of dialectic, that one kind of Christianity, the real Christianity, is good, and the phony kinds are bad.

Now once we have these categories of better and worse from which we must distinguish, we will necessarily, if we are moral beings, love the real Christianity and eschew the rest as non Christian.

Naturally, since we want good to triumph and evil to be destroyed, we will have to promote the good and do what we can to fight the evil, no?

So liberals who are closer to Christ, as I have shown, are better than the deluded fools who are conservatives and pretend they are Christians.

Now why were you unable to figure that out for yourself?

There is either a truth or there isn't, no?
M: There are all kinds of Christians? How can that be.
DSF: That's just the way it is...humans beings are human beings. Some smart, some dumb, some legalistic, some charismatic, some evalgelical, some clueless, some believe this, some believe that, some pretend, some are power hungry, some are honest, some are pedophiles, some political and some not, some read the Bible and some don't, some misunderstand the Bible, some have great understanding, some twist it into something it is not. Just because somebody calls themself a Christian doesn't mean they have they automatically fit your preconceptions of what a Christian is or should be.

M: Did Christ come with a message? Was His message that you can think anything you like and support any philosophy you want? I would have thought, myself, if I were a thinker, that there might be a particular philosophy that is Christian and a lot of wrong opinions as to what that particular philosophy is. That would mean that some people who claim to be Christians are Christians and some are practicing a delusional interpretation of what He came to deliver.
DSF: Agree. (Edit: And this especially applies to non-Christians as well in regard to delusional interpretations).

M: Given the fact then, that out here in the world, we have real Christians and tons of phonies who think they are Christians, we can set up some sort of dialectic, that one kind of Christianity, the real Christianity, is good, and the phony kinds are bad.
DSF: You see tons of phonies. I see tons of good caring people as I've been to many churches and met hundreds if not thousands of Christians. What is the basis of your opinion?

M: Naturally, since we want good to triumph and evil to be destroyed, we will have to promote the good and do what we can to fight the evil, no?
DSF: That's the plan.

M: So liberals who are closer to Christ, as I have shown, are better than the deluded fools who are conservatives and pretend they are Christians.
DSF: This is where you totally lose me. Liberals are closer to Christ? I guess I missed the part where you proved this...please elaborate further because I haven't seen you prove anything in this regard. And while you're at it, please elaborate more on those deluded fool conservatives who are pretending to be Christians? Let's get to the core of your stereotypes.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Liberals care for the poor?

Look at their donation rates!
They only care when they can reach into SOMEONE ELSEs wallets for their pet projects

Republicans donate more to private charity - I'd be interested to see a breakdown that adjusts for wealth.

Regardless, private charity can never be more than a small part of that's needed.

Liberals understand that big efforts need the society, working through its govermnment, to have everyone contribute towards them.

John Kennedy didn't ask for donations to put a man on the moon -0 we wouldn't have gotten there. Eisenhower didn't ask for donations for a national public highway system - we would not have one.

All kinds of societal goals are only addressed by the government doing them. Charity is a nice activity on the side.

As for the lie about liberals not wanting to pay their own money, therer's a very long list of liberals who want to help the needy who pay more under the taxes they ask for, from Warren Buffet to Hollywood.

When Bill Gates says we need a big estate tax for the good of the country, it's not because it's someone else's money.

Republicans are largely just irrational about how to get anything done. No surprise at the most backwards states being the most Republican states - but their getting the most government help adds hypocrisy.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I dont know why you even bothered posting this...in fact liberals and jesus have absolutely nothing in common. the only time liberals invoke the name of jesus is when they can smear him, or unless they can use him as a means to persuade people to redistribe wealth and power to those who share their agenda.


Jesus would not support rights for Gays, abortion rights, the removal of prayer from our schools, the removal of "under god" from our pledge, the teachings of evolution in our schools, or the legalization of weed.

Liberals are the modern day scribes and pharasees, who try to make it look like they do good, but are just plain evil, and jesus says "Woe unto you"

It must be nice to be so certain about what Jesus would do or support, presumably what G-d wants done. I find little to like about the liberal agenda, but I wouldn't say all of them are evil. I think most liberals really want what is best for everyone (they just want it done with other people's money. LOL)
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
It must be nice to be so certain about what Jesus would do or support, presumably what G-d wants done. I find little to like about the liberal agenda, but I wouldn't say all of them are evil. I think most liberals really want what is best for everyone (they just want it done with other people's money. LOL)

He did tells us what He wants done with the Bible. The problem lies in things that are not explicitly stated and/or things that are misunderstood/misconstrued.

To use sao's post, for example, He absolutely opposes abortion. It is murder, and murder is wrong, plain and simple. He also says "what you do to these little children, you also do to me". We are supposed to value and cherish children, not murder them and throw them away.

However, other things are not so clear. While the Bible is clear about homosexuality being wrong, I cannot agree with sao's blanket statement that He would not support gay rights. He opposes gay marriage rights, to be specific, because marriage is a God-ordained union between a man and a woman. However, He wouldn't want homosexuals to be treated as second class citizens. He would want them to repent of their sin...love the sinner and not the sin.

Things like the legalization of weed are even less clear since Jesus never spoke about such things...at all, really. I mean, one could interpret that "your body is a temple of Christ" as a clear indication that weed is wrong, but I am not so sure. In those circumstances, Christians are always supposed to err on the side of caution when things aren't so black and white.

The same goes with removing God from the pledge and teaching evolution. The United States of America, while founded on the idea of Judeo-Christian principles, is not a theocracy. Some are really serious about separation of church and state, and that is an understandable position. As far as evolution goes, it would depend on whether the evolutionist was denying creation and the Creator. As long as the person who wants God removed from the pledge or the evolutionist isn't railing against God and denying Him, it is kind of another gray area that you can't really say emphatically one way or the other, and I am skeptical to believe anybody who pounds away adamantly about those unclear issues. The Bible does not address America directly, so it is very difficult to try and claim that "God wants X for America" unless such ideas are strongly backed by other passages of Scripture.

The Bible states many things plainly, and many other things are left ambiguous. Why this is the case is a mystery, but it is how it is. I am hesitant to jump down someone's throat about something the Bible isn't clear about, and I would be very skeptical of someone who was willing to go all-in on some point that the Bible doesn't clearly state one way or the other.

PS - Jesus and the modern day liberal have nothing in common. For example, many liberals claim that Jesus was all about helping the poor and so are they. Yes, Jesus was very serious about helping the poor, but NOT BY STEALING FROM OTHER PEOPLE FORCIBLY. Jesus wanted people to help willingly through charity. If He wanted to, He could force all of us to do something, but instead, he gave us free will. He wanted us to be willingly giving, not forcibly coerced into doing something.

If one would read and study the Bible, you would see very little (if any) similarities with what Jesus taught and what modern liberals believe. Anybody who tries and state as much is a fool and a liar.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
So then are you Jewish or Christian?

I think of myself as neither or both. I believe there is a hidden truth to all religions, that they are bridges to reality created by a few folk who know the Way for a particular people at a particular time and place. The religious worship the bridge, those who Know cross the bridge which is then irrelevant and useless, when the people the times and conditions change.

People who see as I do are given various names, but that is for the sake of the namers, the desire to label what is incomprehensible and put it away in a box, as if one now has some understanding, as if a name meant anything.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
He did tells us what He wants done with the Bible. The problem lies in things that are not explicitly stated and/or things that are misunderstood/misconstrued.

To use sao's post, for example, He absolutely opposes abortion. It is murder, and murder is wrong, plain and simple. He also says "what you do to these little children, you also do to me".

However, other things are not so clear. While the Bible is clear about homosexuality being wrong, I cannot agree with sao's blanket statement that He would not support gay rights. He opposes gay marriage rights, to be specific, because marriage is a God-ordained union between a man and a woman. However, He wouldn't want homosexuals to be treated as second class citizens. He would want them to repent of their sin...love the sinner and not the sin.

Things like the legalization of weed are even less clear since Jesus never spoke about such things...at all, really. I mean, one could interpret that "your body is a temple of Christ" as a clear indication that weed is wrong, but I am not so sure. In those circumstances, Christians are always supposed to err on the side of caution when things aren't so black and white.

The same goes with removing God from the pledge and teaching evolution. The United States of America, while founded on the idea of Judeo-Christian principles, is not a theocracy. Some are really serious about separation of church and state, and that is an understandable position. As far as evolution goes, it would depend on whether the evolutionist was denying creation and the Creator. As long as the person who wants God removed from the pledge or the evolutionist isn't railing against God and denying Him, it is kind of another gray area that you can't really say emphatically one way or the other, and I am skeptical to believe anybody who pounds away adamantly about those unclear issues. The Bible does not address America, so it is very difficult to try and claim that "God wants X for America" unless such ideas are strongly backed by other passages of Scripture.

The Bible states many things plainly, and many other things are left ambiguous. Why this is the case is a mystery, but it is how it is. I am hesitant to jump down someone's throat about something the Bible isn't clear about, and I would be very skeptical of someone who was willing to go all-in on some point that the Bible doesn't clearly state one way or the other.

Good, thoughtful post. I've always had a personal problem with Paul's pronouncements regarding homosexuals - basically Jesus saying "Dang, I forgot to talk about evil queers! Better invade Paul's dreams." But I always try to make moral judgments only when absolutely necessarily or absolutely clear and since I have no gay family members and no current gay friends, it's not really an issue either way for me. And luckily the gay friends I have had were good, moral people, so I see no reason to make such sweeping determinations either way. But that's personal, I certainly have no problem with others making their own determination of morality. In fact, I think it should be mandatory to figure out what is moral. I would not however want to Witness on Jesus' position on homosexuality or weed.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
I dont know why you even bothered posting this...in fact liberals and jesus have absolutely nothing in common. the only time liberals invoke the name of jesus is when they can smear him, or unless they can use him as a means to persuade people to redistribe wealth and power to those who share their agenda.


Jesus would not support rights for Gays, abortion rights, the removal of prayer from our schools, the removal of "under god" from our pledge, the teachings of evolution in our schools, or the legalization of weed.

Liberals are the modern day scribes and pharasees, who try to make it look like they do good, but are just plain evil, and jesus says "Woe unto you"

I am here to give you the opportunity to figure out why you bother posting. Give it some thought. Why do you suppose you have this need to make me see?

The list of things you say Jesus believes or does not is opinion inculcated in you. You have no real knowledge you have come to yourself. You are a auto bot. You are a religious nut case, essentially. Not something that's really a good idea to be, is it?
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Good, thoughtful post. I've always had a personal problem with Paul's pronouncements regarding homosexuals - basically Jesus saying "Dang, I forgot to talk about evil queers! Better invade Paul's dreams." But I always try to make moral judgments only when absolutely necessarily or absolutely clear and since I have no gay family members and no current gay friends, it's not really an issue either way for me. And luckily the gay friends I have had were good, moral people, so I see no reason to make such sweeping determinations either way. But that's personal, I certainly have no problem with others making their own determination of morality. In fact, I think it should be mandatory to figure out what is moral. I would not however want to Witness on Jesus' position on homosexuality or weed.

It wasn't just Paul though...the theme on homosexuality throughout the Old and New Testament is consistent. Marriage is always presented as a man and a woman. Sodom and Gomorrah, for example, shows that God does not condone homosexuality. It is always described as a "detestable thing". Looking beyond just Romans 1:26-27 as well, one could look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Though still another book by Paul, it was a differently themed letter to a different church in different circumstances, but still listed homosexuality as a sin.

Just to be clear for our neighborhood reading-comprehension-challenged liberals: God opposes homosexuality, not the homosexual. He loves the sinner, not the sin. Homosexuality is no different from drunkeness, adultery, etc. in the eyes of God. Some people put some special emphasis on it, both conservative and liberal, like it is something extraordinarily bad in the eyes of God as opposed to everything else. That is not the case...all sin is equally bad in God's eyes, except for one (blaspheming the Holy Spirit is extra bad). He loves everyone and wants all to turn away from their sin, whatever it may be.

Weed on the other hand is (as far as I can tell from my studies) not specifically addressed at all throughout the entire Bible. Now, there are certain passages some might try and use to explain their position, but I am skeptical since it is not clearly stated. When God wants to be clear about something, He will emphatically state it. :p

I always shake my head when someone is yelling and pounding on their Bible, going on and on adamantly about some position that isn't really supported by the Scripture. I just have to shake my head because not only are they mis-representing God's will, but they are also giving reasonable Christians (most of us) a bad name.

Do I think weed should be illegal? Yes, because it causes people to act strangely, and this would, among other things, result in an ahhh...unproductive workforce. :) But will I state that God declares that weed is wrong? No, because I don't believe there is any Scripture that supports such a position. There are more important, clearer positions that we should be focusing our time and energy on.

Many on the right use "God's Will!" to blindly support their position, just as many on the left use "Unfairness/Inequality!" to blindly support their position, whether they are right or wrong.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
Good, thoughtful post. I've always had a personal problem with Paul's pronouncements regarding homosexuals - basically Jesus saying "Dang, I forgot to talk about evil queers! Better invade Paul's dreams." But I always try to make moral judgments only when absolutely necessarily or absolutely clear and since I have no gay family members and no current gay friends, it's not really an issue either way for me. And luckily the gay friends I have had were good, moral people, so I see no reason to make such sweeping determinations either way. But that's personal, I certainly have no problem with others making their own determination of morality. In fact, I think it should be mandatory to figure out what is moral. I would not however want to Witness on Jesus' position on homosexuality or weed.

Your point of view is superior to them because you are more liberal.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
It wasn't just Paul though...the theme on homosexuality throughout the Old and New Testament is consistent. Marriage is always presented as a man and a woman. Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. Looking beyond just Romans 1:26, one could look at 1 Corinthians 6:19. Though still another book by Paul, it was a differently themed letter to a different church in different circumstances.

Just to be clear for our neighborhood reading-comprehension-challenged liberals: God opposes homosexuality, not the homosexual. He loves the sinner, not the sin. Homosexuality is no different from drunkeness, adultery, etc. in the eyes of God. Some people put some special emphasis on it, both conservative and liberal, like it is something extraordinarily bad in the eyes of God as opposed to everything else. That is not the case...all sin is equally bad in God's eyes, except for one (blaspheming the Holy Spirit is extra bad). He loves everyone and wants all to turn away from their sin, whatever it may be.

Weed on the other hand is (as far as I can tell from my studies) not specifically addressed at all throughout the entire Bible. Now, there are certain passages some might try and use to explain their position, but I am skeptical since it is not clearly stated. When God wants to be clear about something, He will emphatically state it. :)

I always shake my head when someone is yelling and pounding on their Bible, going on and on adamantly about some position that isn't really supported by the Scripture. I just have to shake my head because not only are they mis-representing God's will, but they are also giving reasonable Christians (most of us) a bad name.

Do I think weed should be illegal? Yes, because it causes people to act strangely, and this would, among other things, result in an ahhh...unproductive workforce. :) But will I state that God declares that weed is wrong? No, because I don't believe there is any Scripture that supports such a position.

Many on the right use "God's Will!" to blindly support their position, just as many on the left use "Unfairness/Inequality!" to blindly support their position, whether they are right or wrong.

As has been explained many times in detail, you don't understand the scripture well enough.

Also, I've yet to meet *one person* who holds your position, who agrees to be consistent and similarly enforce many other provisions that the same type of approach identifies.

Such as, a girl is out working in a field and a man rapes her. Bible says, he pays her family silver and marries her, nothing about her having a say. That's as or more black and white clear than your gay passaqes.

Frankly, a lot og anti-gay bigots use the bible as cover for their fear and hate to discriminate.

You think you don't, but you are discriminating for misguided reasons as well. Homosexuality is comparable to heterosexuality, not to criminal behavior, in your little 'love the sinner hate the sin' platitude.

You don't understand homosexuality at all, is what you make clear.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
There's good money in fancy goldfish. I won't, however, dispute that you have a point.

Private charity, thought of value, however, won't even buy a puddle.

I'm personally of the opinion that private charity is great for providing fish to the hungry while government teaches them how to catch their own. One is short term, the other is long term. The US is full of short term thinkers right now, both private and public.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
Another area in which liberals are superior to conservatives is in the area of the acceptance of Homosexuality.

We see that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon present in all kinds of animals around the world, and that it had to be a creation of God if God created the animal kingdom, but the psychotically fearful, the shrunken testicle, less than men, right, has to demonetize it, because they are not secure in their own manhood.

We know that many homosexuals know they were born that way.

The notion you can love gays and hate homosexual is a delusion created by the fanatical mind to protect it from seeing its own hate of others, the horrible sin they commit against what, for some, is only natural. This is evil of the first order, an evil the religious can't admit to because they are hypocrites.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I dont know why you even bothered posting this...in fact liberals and jesus have absolutely nothing in common. the only time liberals invoke the name of jesus is when they can smear him, or unless they can use him as a means to persuade people to redistribe wealth and power to those who share their agenda.


Jesus would not support rights for Gays, abortion rights, the removal of prayer from our schools, the removal of "under god" from our pledge, the teachings of evolution in our schools, or the legalization of weed.

Liberals are the modern day scribes and pharasees, who try to make it look like they do good, but are just plain evil, and jesus says "Woe unto you"

Um... why wouldn't Jesus be ok with teaching evolution? Last I checked evolution can fit in pretty fine with creationism, god created beings with the ability to evolve, seems like something a perfect creator would do. Also I don't understand why he wouldn't be for the legalization of weed, you realize marijuana was a really big thing in those parts of the world, not to mention hemp has been used for how long? Gays, abortion, I can see. But even prayer from school and under god in the pledge I don't see him having a problem with.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Another area in which liberals are superior to conservatives is in the area of the acceptance of Homosexuality.

We see that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon present in all kinds of animals around the world, and that it had to be a creation of God if God created the animal kingdom, but the psychotically fearful, the shrunken testicle, less than men, right, has to demonetize it, because they are not secure in their own manhood.

We know that many homosexuals know they were born that way.

The notion you can love gays and hate homosexual is a delusion created by the fanatical mind to protect it from seeing its own hate of others, the horrible sin they commit against what, for some, is only natural. This is evil of the first order, an evil the religious can't admit to because they are hypocrites.

There's homosexuality all over the animal kingdom? Do you mean like when my male dog would try and fuck my other male dog? Wasn't exactly homosexuality as it was him being to stupid to know what he should be fucking to procreate. Pretty dumb argument imo.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
I'm personally of the opinion that private charity is great for providing fish to the hungry while government teaches them how to catch their own. One is short term, the other is long term. The US is full of short term thinkers right now, both private and public.

It's a representative government and thus our reflection. We are by in large short term thinkers. Thinking, the use of the frontal loves, the last to evolve, is all about future planning and strategy, as I understand it. Maybe 2% of the population is really good at it I would guess.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I dont know why you even bothered posting this...in fact liberals and jesus have absolutely nothing in common. the only time liberals invoke the name of jesus is when they can smear him, or unless they can use him as a means to persuade people to redistribe wealth and power to those who share their agenda.


Jesus would not support rights for Gays, abortion rights, the removal of prayer from our schools, the removal of "under god" from our pledge, the teachings of evolution in our schools, or the legalization of weed.

Liberals are the modern day scribes and pharasees, who try to make it look like they do good, but are just plain evil, and jesus says "Woe unto you"

I'm not a practicing Christian, but I was raised as one, and you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Jesus' message was love. Jesus would love gays, abortion doctors, women who got abortions, druggies, drug dealers, atheists, fascists, communists, nazis and everyone in between. Even if you take the bible literally, there is no room in Christianity for hate or prejudice.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
There's homosexuality all over the animal kingdom? Do you mean like when my male dog would try and fuck my other male dog? Wasn't exactly homosexuality as it was him being to stupid to know what he should be fucking to procreate. Pretty dumb argument imo.

Not really, you were just too stupid to follow it. Check out our closest relative the Bonobo.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
I'm not a practicing Christian, but I was raised as one, and you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Jesus' message was love. Jesus would love gays, abortion doctors, women who got abortions, druggies, drug dealers, atheists, fascists, communists, nazis and everyone in between. Even if you take the bible literally, there is no room in Christianity for hate or prejudice.

He isn't a truly religious person. His parents taught him to feel worthless if he couldn't live in a tight little mold. He was trained to hate, not love, to hate through religion.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
As has been explained many times in detail, you don't understand the scripture well enough.

Also, I've yet to meet *one person* who holds your position, who agrees to be consistent and similarly enforce many other provisions that the same type of approach identifies.

Such as, a girl is out working in a field and a man rapes her. Bible says, he pays her family silver and marries her, nothing about her having a say. That's as or more black and white clear than your gay passaqes.

Frankly, a lot og anti-gay bigots use the bible as cover for their fear and hate to discriminate.

You think you don't, but you are discriminating for misguided reasons as well. Homosexuality is comparable to heterosexuality, not to criminal behavior, in your little 'love the sinner hate the sin' platitude.

You don't understand homosexuality at all, is what you make clear.

You misquoted Deuteronomy by not including the entire verse.

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. "But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," Deut 22:25-28 (emphasis mine)

You've quoted verse 28 and 29:

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

which is a refrence to Exodus 22:16:

"If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife."


Now you know.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
btw Moonbeam, I'm not a homophobe, nor do I have any problem with homosexuality what so ever. I just think trying to justify it by any means is retarded.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,760
6,767
126
Really? You want to use the Bonobo... so incest is completely natural too right?

There is no point in arguing with someone of Bonobo intellect but if you knew anything, you would know that animals are attracted to genetic difference sexually and less so to genetic similarity. I have been in an endless number of threads on homosexuality and in every one of them some dunce will eventually bring up incest and polygamy.