Some polls now have Romney ahead.

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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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I'm disappointed in the lack of data coming out of Ohio. It could be argued that is is the only state that matters at this point.

edit: additionally confusing is Gallup's Obama approval is in the stronger end of the range it's been for a while now (50 approve) even when Obama was +6
If Romney is really up 7 then states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Iowa, even Minnesota and New Jersey comes into play. Romney doesn't need Ohio if he gets Penn or Michigan or Iowa and (WI or MN).

RCP just put NC in lean Romney status.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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If Romney is really up 7 then states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Iowa, even Minnesota and New Jersey comes into play. Romney doesn't need Ohio if he gets Penn or Michigan or Iowa and (WI or MN).

RCP just put NC in lean Romney status.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html

I just don't think that is realistic. For this scenario to be plausible, as it stands, you have to discount mounds of state polling data and elevate two Gallup results (yesterday's +6 and today's +7).

I agree Wisconsin gives him an alternative path, and looking at the map it becomes clear exactly why Paul Ryan was chosen ('If we just can't break through in Ohio--what do we do?')

I agree NC is lean Romney, that's how I call it as well (along with FL). But I give lean Obama to Iowa, OH, and Nevada (if Harry Reid wins in Nevada, Romney doesn't. The ground game there is too good)
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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Gallup has Romney up 7, which like a lot of September polls showing Obama up high single digits nationally, were well outside the mean. Sean Trende at RCP guesses on Twitter that Gallup "has a day with a 1-in-1000 sample (like Romney+15), and that everything else is normal variance." Which makes sense, as Obama is up 50-44 in favorability in the same Gallup survey, and down 1 among registered voters 48-47, again in the same Gallup survey. Likely a random sample where a bunch of people self-identified as Republicans, outside the mean.
Assuming that they poll around 385 LVs a day. And since 52% of 2700 is 1404. One day of +15 would get about 245 votes (depending on the undecided percentage). That leaves 1159 "votes" for Romney to distribute throughout the remaining six days. That still gives Romney an average of 50.2% share for those days.

Another national tracking poll from IBD/TIPP Tracking has Obama moving back down into a tie with Romney 46-46, reverting down 2 points from 48%. Looks like more people went undecided. 8% undecided is high this close to the election I think.
That cannot be a good sign for an incumbent president.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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A poll out of Virginia today shows Obama up 1 49-48 here. Not sure why RCP hasn't included it in their results.

Assuming that they poll around 385 LVs a day. And since 52% of 2700 is 1404. One day of +15 would get about 245 votes (depending on the undecided percentage). That leaves 1159 "votes" for Romney to distribute throughout the remaining six days. That still gives Romney an average of 50.2% share for those days.


That cannot be a good sign for an incumbent president.

Oh sorry, I don't respond to people who don't understand statistics. FYI.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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I just don't think that is realistic. For this scenario to be plausible, as it stands, you have to discount mounds of state polling data and elevate two Gallup results (yesterday's +6 and today's +7).
Right, but I was assuming for the sake of argument.
I agree Wisconsin gives him an alternative path, and looking at the map it becomes clear exactly why Paul Ryan was chosen ('If we just can't break through in Ohio--what do we do?')
I guess this is why national polls matter. You put states in play by raising your overall vote percentage. If Romney has a significant national lead (and I stress IF) then the EC map looks a lot different. Those popular votes have to be coming from somewhere.
I agree NC is lean Romney, that's how I call it as well (along with FL). But I give lean Obama to Iowa, OH, and Nevada (if Harry Reid wins in Nevada, Romney doesn't. The ground game there is too good)
There were a lot of negatives about Reid's opponent but she was up in the polls before the election and she lost so I do agree that there is a good Dem ground game and Romney isn't Engall.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
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I'm going to give that Gallup poll a week before paying any attention to it, though. The state polling seems to back up what all of the other national trackers are saying. If Romney is +7 nationally then he is at least +3 OH, +5 CO, +10 NC, +3 WI, tie MI, tie PA, etc. and none of that is happening in a single state poll
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
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I'm still really confused why intrade and betting sites have Obama winning by a large margin where as polls and empirical models have them a lot closer.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Oct 9, 1999
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I'm still really confused why intrade and betting sites have Obama winning by a large margin where as polls and empirical models have them a lot closer.

Essentially, the electoral college plus the ever smaller slice of undecideds plus Romney/Ryan's best shot was probably the first Pres. debate and it didn't quite do it . . . at least that's my take.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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I'm still really confused why intrade and betting sites have Obama winning by a large margin where as polls and empirical models have them a lot closer.

Because unless Romney leads in OH (which he never has), the electoral map favors Obama. In simple terms of Obama maintains his consistent lead in Ohio, and we assume it is a tied race, then there are 8 or so coin flips and Romney has to call them all to win the election. Obama only needs one.

For people who know more, I know there is more to it but I think that's a fair, simple break down.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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I'm confused by this result. 1) Gallup has been Democratic-leaning relative to Rasmussen for most of the cycle, and now has swung the other way, 2) their +6 point poll can no longer be called a swing to the MoE, which I thought was a plausible explanation yesterday, 3) the poll doesn't 'feel' right relative to what we've seen to the state polling data and other national polls. The state data points to a dead heat, with Obama hanging on to Ohio, Iowa, Nevada, ties in Colorado and Virginia, and Romney pulling slightly ahead in NC and Florida. That map doesn't make sense with a national +7.

I'm disappointed in the lack of data coming out of Ohio. It could be argued that is is the only state that matters at this point.

edit: additionally confusing is Gallup's Obama approval is in the stronger end of the range it's been for a while now (50 approve) even when Obama was +6

I believe that in the final weeks the polling organizations, which have skewed toward unrealistically high Democrat turnout expectations, are adjusting their models to accurately reflect what they expect/know the real turnout numbers will be.

Instead of Democrats turning out in higher numbers than in 2008, it will be the Republicans and Independents that do. That adjustment in the modeling is what is being reflected with Likely Voters at Gallup. Registered Voter polling is going to stay pretty much the same as those are just raw counts without that much massaging.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Are we setting up for a Bush/Gore all over again (i.e. Obama wins with EC and Romney wins the popular vote)?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Gallup +7 explained: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/17/1145957/-About-that-Gallup-poll

Romney is +22 in the south. Obama is up in every other region.

Can Obama win the Presidency without the south? Definitely. That's actually what RCP and 538 are predicting.

That's true but the trend is, thus far, not his friend. While the polling date only shows one day's effect past the second debate, it is still remarkable how key demographics that swung his way in 2008 are significantly reversed.

Per Gallup's commentary -

(Obama) shed the most support among Southerners, college graduates, postgraduates, 30- to 49-year-olds, men, and Protestants. He also lost a moderate amount of support among whites, Easterners, women, and Catholics -- while not building new support elsewhere.

The really big question is how soft is his remaining base? How many will turn out to vote at all?

We know the opposition is dead set on getting him out of office, but are his supporters even close to being equally enthused?

Are they ready to march from the graveyard to the polls? :colbert:
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Are we setting up for a Bush/Gore all over again (i.e. Obama wins with EC and Romney wins the popular vote)?

Maybe. People will get all riled up but it they also need to realize that the campaigns are run with the electoral college in mind, so popular vote totals are meaningless.

For example, if the popular vote mattered, Bush and Gore would've run national campaigns in 2000 and with such a small margin separating the final result, it's hard to say how it would've turned out. It could be argued Bush has an edge with more money, a better ground game, and a home state with a huge population.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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That's true but the trend is, thus far, not his friend. While the polling date only shows one day's effect past the second debate, it is still remarkable how key demographics that swung his way in 2008 are significantly reversed.

Per Gallup's commentary -



The really big question is how soft is his remaining base? How many will turn out to vote at all?

We know the opposition is dead set on getting him out of office, but are his supporters even close to being equally enthused?

Are they ready to march from the graveyard to the polls? :colbert:

Did you even click on the link?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
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I believe that in the final weeks the polling organizations, which have skewed toward unrealistically high Democrat turnout expectations, are adjusting their models to accurately reflect what they expect/know the real turnout numbers will be.

Instead of Democrats turning out in higher numbers than in 2008, it will be the Republicans and Independents that do. That adjustment in the modeling is what is being reflected with Likely Voters at Gallup. Registered Voter polling is going to stay pretty much the same as those are just raw counts without that much massaging.

I see republicans being the most motivated to vote right now--which they weren't up until 2 weeks ago. that certainly helps Romney, considering that so few of them actually like him.

I don't see Independents being any more or less motivated this year than in 2008. If anything...probably less motivated. That being said, there is no reason to assume independents skew towards one candidate over the other right now. I actually see them being more torn between economy/social issues between the two candidates, which would most likely de-motivate them from voting, or, at least, casting a vote for a 3rd party.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
31,551
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Are they ready to march from the graveyard to the polls? :colbert:

did you watch the national conventions this summer?

If so, you would have noticed that it was the GOP that is exclusively represented by octogenarians and grave-dwellers.

:D
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Did you even click on the link?

I did, and I actually read the Gallup site daily as tracking polls show early shifts. No shift yet, btw.

Have YOU read any of my other posts about working with more data points than are captured by polls?

Simple concept - polls generally offer you a yes or no answer to choose from. Reality is that there is an enthusiasm factor (for or against something) that is best captured by a range of answers, a scale. If the poll is not capturing that by offering a range of responses (ie Very Likely through Not At All Likely) it is going to be somewhat flawed. The extent is difficult to determine, but it is still there.

I am contending that the polling has overweighted Democrat turnout (a measure of enthusiasm) almost across the board, but that the overweighting will be mostly corrected by the time we get closer to the elections and the polls will start coming closer together in what they are measuring.

Democrat strongholds are in the cities and the Blue states have lots of those cities. Hence the Obama numbers look mighty good in those areas.

If the Democrat Party wakes up the zombies and has them march to the polling places, maybe pays them that good ol' walkin' around money for example, then they have a chance of winning.

However, if SEIU, having spent big bucks in Wisconsin to no avail, cannot wake up enough of the dead and/or sleeping and/or illegals and/or unionists (many of whom are not that thrilled with Obama), then the highly, massively, overwhelmingly enthusiastic anti-Obama voters will overwhelm them.

Polls are lagging indicators, look for other indications that a race is going one way or another.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
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If the Democrat Party wakes up the zombies and has them march to the polling places, maybe pays them that good ol' walkin' around money for example, then they have a chance of winning.

It's fun that by the premise you're purporting, if the president retains his position it is due to shady practices and possibly fraud.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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I see republicans being the most motivated to vote right now--which they weren't up until 2 weeks ago. that certainly helps Romney, considering that so few of them actually like him.

I don't see Independents being any more or less motivated this year than in 2008. If anything...probably less motivated. That being said, there is no reason to assume independents skew towards one candidate over the other right now. I actually see them being more torn between economy/social issues between the two candidates, which would most likely de-motivate them from voting, or, at least, casting a vote for a 3rd party.

There is no third party this time around. No Nader, no Perot, not even Paul.

The economy driven voters are in Romney's pockets. The rest are being driven by The View, ATPN, NRA, PP and every other single issue out there.

It's the economy, stupid. Unless the tail is going to wag the dog in the next few weeks.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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I see republicans being the most motivated to vote right now--which they weren't up until 2 weeks ago. that certainly helps Romney, considering that so few of them actually like him.

I don't see Independents being any more or less motivated this year than in 2008. If anything...probably less motivated. That being said, there is no reason to assume independents skew towards one candidate over the other right now. I actually see them being more torn between economy/social issues between the two candidates, which would most likely de-motivate them from voting, or, at least, casting a vote for a 3rd party.
There are polls suggesting that independents are more motivated (or enthusiastic) this time around and that Romney is up by 16%.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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It's fun that by the premise you're purporting, if the president retains his position it is due to shady practices and possibly fraud.
If he wins it will be with the help of the traditionally Democrat voting contingent that comes from the graveyard.

Everyone knows this.

:cool:

dupage-zion-bensen.jpg
 
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jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
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Aug 23, 2003
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Gallup dissection again: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/gallup-vs-the-world/?

Usually, when a poll is an outlier relative to the consensus, its results turn out badly.

You do not need to look any further than Gallup’s track record over the past two election cycles to find a demonstration of this.

In 2008, the Gallup poll put Mr. Obama 11 points ahead of John McCain on the eve of that November’s election.

That was tied for Mr. Obama’s largest projected margin of victory among any of the 15 or so national polls that were released just in advance of the election. The average of polls put Mr. Obama up by about seven points.

The average did a good job; Mr. Obama won the popular vote by seven points. The Gallup poll had a four-point miss, however.

In 2010, Gallup put Republicans ahead by 15 points on the national Congressional ballot, higher than other polling firms, which put Republicans an average of eight or nine points ahead instead.

In fact, Republicans won the popular vote for the United States House by about seven percentage points — fairly close to the average of polls, but representing another big miss for Gallup.

Apart from Gallup’s final poll not having been especially accurate in recent years, it has often been a wild ride to get there. Their polls, for whatever reason, have often found implausibly large swings in the race.

In 2000, for example, Gallup had George W. Bush 16 points ahead among likely voters in polling it conducted in early August. By Sept. 20, about six weeks later, they had Al Gore up by 10 points instead: a 26-point swing toward Mr. Gore over the course of a month and a half. No other polling firm showed a swing remotely that large.

Then in October 2000, Gallup showed a 14-point swing toward Mr. Bush over the course of a few days, and had him ahead by 13 points on Oct. 27 — just 10 days before an election that ended in a virtual tie.

In 1996, Gallup had Bill Clinton’s margin over Bob Dole increasing to 25 points from nine points over the course of four days.

After the Republican convention in 2008, Gallup had John McCain leading Mr. Obama by as many as 10 points among likely voters. Although some other polls also had Mr. McCain pulling ahead in the race, no other polling firm ever gave him larger than a four-point lead.

It’s not clear what causes such large swings, although Gallup’s likely voter model may have something to do with it.

Even its registered voter numbers can be volatile, however. In early September of this year, after the Democratic convention, Gallup had Mr. Obama’s lead among registered voters going from seven points to zero points over the course of a week — and then reverting to six points just as quickly. Most other polling firms showed a roughly steady race during this time period.

Because Gallup’s polls usually take large sample sizes, statistical variance alone probably cannot account these sorts of shifts. It seems to be an endemic issue with their methodology.

To be clear, I would not recommend that you literally just disregard the Gallup poll. You should consider it — but consider it in context.

The context is that its most recent results differ substantially from the dozens of other state and national polls about the campaign. It’s much more likely that Gallup is wrong and everyone else is right than the other way around.
For the TLDR crowd, the average right now is a statistical tie.

538 has Obama up by 1, RCP has Romney up by 1, and thus in the national popular vote (which doesn't decide the outcome of the race), they are tied.

538 and RCP both have electoral vote maps with Obama at ~290 and Romney at ~240, give or take. This is the only result that matters. Obama could lose 100% of the vote in heavily populated southern states like Texas and Florida, come in at a tie or near tie nationally, and still win the election easily, because the result comes down to a few key swing states that Romney has never held the lead in:

WI, NV, MI, IA, OH, PA
 
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