Some examples of where Sanders supporters are coming from:

[Moonbeam]

Bernie or Bust: the Sanders fans who will never vote for Biden

Supporters distrust the Democratic party and are frustrated with an election system they say works against their candidate

www.theguardian.com

I started a thread about a post Vic made that I felt was a central issue in understanding the current political situation in the Democratic party but it got almost no attention. It was about purity vs pragmatism and even though it seems the issue is avoided by mainstream Democrats it looks to be very real to me. If you lack trust in the Democratic Party, why vote for it? Why not demand that party pay attention to your ideals? What should be the response if the Democrats are so fractured they can't win. I guess the answer is to blame. Is it the fault of those who won't bend, or the fault of those who won't bend?

The link gives a range of opinions from the Sanders side.

 

[sandorski]

No dude, you're a bad person if you don't Vote for whomever they choose. Even if that person offers you nothing. Shame on you. Did you know that Trump is a bad man? Just vote for their terribly flawed, but better than Trump, candidate...

The one candidate with the proven ethical character, actual solutions to systemic problems, and whom people on the street actually like, that's the guy they actively work against and fear....

 

[Brainonska511]

No dude, you're a bad person if you don't Vote for whomever they choose. Even if that person offers you nothing. Shame on you. Did you know that Trump is a bad man? Just vote for their terribly flawed, but better than Trump, candidate...

The one candidate with the proven ethical character, actual solutions to systemic problems, and whom people on the street actually like, that's the guy they actively work against and fear....

In a winner-take-all general election, you have to be a privileged idiot if you choose to either 1) not vote, or 2) vote for a never-going-to-win 3rd party over a candidate who at least partly aligns with your interests.

I think the last election clearly shows the consequences of what happens when people throw away their vote. But perhaps that lesson hasn't quite sunken in.

If you want to be selective, the time to do it is the primary.

 

[sandorski]

In a winner-take-all general election, you have to be a privileged idiot if you choose to either 1) not vote, or 2) vote for a never-going-to-win 3rd party over a candidate who at least partly aligns with your interests.

I think the last election clearly shows the consequences of what happens when people throw away their vote. But perhaps that lesson hasn't quite sunken in.

If you want to be selective, the time to do it is the primary.

Choose a candidate worth voting for. "Not Trump" is a horribly low bar, especially when People have actual Needs that have to be addressed.

Why is this such a stumbling block for the Democratic Party? They have an excellent candidate and a severely flawed candidate, yet the flawed candidate must be their candidate and everyone must support that choice, because reasons!

 

[pete6032]

If Sanders supporters chose to vote for Sanders in the general election even if Biden is nominated, it would, with near certainty, result in Trump being elected. However, it could also send a big F-U message to the democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants.The short-term results of this would be bad (4 more years of Trump), but the long-term impacts could reinvigorate the Democratic part to start thinking more about putting forward a people's candidate, rather than just letting the party establishment pick who they want.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Wow, OP, thin skin. "People didn't pay attention to my post so I'm making a thread about it!"

You Bernie Bros are looking more and more like Turmpers every moment. I do love Sandorski claiming that there's two choices: "not Turmp" (read as: total shit that is actually just Turmp in everything but name) and messiah Bernie. Then doing literally nothing but offering that he thinks Bernie would beat Turmp in a general election as his reason that people should support Bernie. You really need to take a step back and look at yourself. You keep badgering people who openly say they absolutely would support Bernie and like his policies but they will vote for either Bernie or Biden. But then hey, everything's shit, so its not your fault if you contribute to it continuing to be shit because people couldn't see how in love with Bernie you are so its all their faults if you decide to throw up your hands and throw a tantrum if you don't get your way.

Choose a candidate worth voting for. "Not Trump" is a horribly low bar, especially when People have actual Needs that have to be addressed.

Why is this such a stumbling block for the Democratic Party? They have an excellent candidate and a severely flawed candidate, yet the flawed candidate must be their candidate and everyone must support that choice, because reasons!

There aren't any. You've fully won me over, everything is totally shit, so if I don't get my way, fuck it all! There literally is no human being willing to put me in as god emperor of Earth (including myself) so goddamnit I'm not gonna vote! Or I might vote for Turmp because he's the closest to what I want and fuck the Democrats, right? Something something Hilary, something Biden, something something something, the Democrats don't offer me anything! Nevermind that Bernie only runs as a Democrat to try and win because otherwise he wouldn't have enough support to. But yep, the Democrats should fall all over themselves to support him. So, Bernie offers the Democrats nothing since as you keep saying yourself he's not even a fucking Democrat, but they should run him as their candidate just so they can win because, reasons? You really need to take a step back and listen to yourself because you're being a massive hypocrite.

Why is not being a petulent child such a stumbling block for you? They're both flawed candidates. That you can't see that, I don't know what to say. And how is your argument any different? Because you're doing literally nothing more. I sure as shit haven't been getting any worthwhile legitimate reasons I should vote for Bernie over even Turmp from you.

 

[sandorski]

Wow, OP, thin skin. "People didn't pay attention to my post so I'm making a thread about it!"

You Bernie Bros are looking more and more like Turmpers every moment. I do love Sandorski claiming that there's two choices: "not Turmp" (read as: total shit that is actually just Turmp in everything but name) and messiah Bernie. Then doing literally nothing but offering that he thinks Bernie would beat Turmp in a general election as his reason that people should support Bernie. You really need to take a step back and look at yourself. You keep badgering people who openly say they absolutely would support Bernie and like his policies but they will vote for either Bernie or Biden. But then hey, everything's shit, so its not your fault if you contribute to it continuing to be shit because people couldn't see how in love with Bernie you are so its all their faults if you decide to throw up your hands and throw a tantrum if you don't get your way.



There aren't any. You've fully won me over, everything is totally shit, so if I don't get my way, fuck it all! There literally is no human being willing to put me in as god emperor of Earth (including myself) so goddamnit I'm not gonna vote! Or I might vote for Turmp because he's the closest to what I want and fuck the Democrats, right? Something something Hilary, something Biden, something something something, the Democrats don't offer me anything! Nevermind that Bernie only runs as a Democrat to try and win because otherwise he wouldn't have enough support to. But yep, the Democrats should fall all over themselves to support him. So, Bernie offers the Democrats nothing since as you keep saying yourself he's not even a fucking Democrat, but they should run him as their candidate just so they can win because, reasons? You really need to take a step back and listen to yourself because you're being a massive hypocrite.

Why is not being a petulent child such a stumbling block for you? They're both flawed candidates. That you can't see that, I don't know what to say. And how is your argument any different? Because you're doing literally nothing more. I sure as shit haven't been getting any worthwhile legitimate reasons I should vote for Bernie over even Turmp from you.

So, what is Bidens message?

 

[Brainonska511]

democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants

People keep talking about this establishment, but candidates are voted on in primaries by everyday people...

 

[sandorski]

People keep talking about this establishment, but candidates are voted on in primaries by everyday people...

It's not that simple and I suspect that you know it.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

privileged idiot

- This is me.

Ignorance is bliss, but being well off and ignorant is like... double-bliss man.

 

[dank69]

Bernie or Bust: the Sanders fans who will never vote for Biden

Supporters distrust the Democratic party and are frustrated with an election system they say works against their candidate

www.theguardian.com

I started a thread about a post Vic made that I felt was a central issue in understanding the current political situation in the Democratic party but it got almost no attention. It was about purity vs pragmatism and even though it seems the issue is avoided by mainstream Democrats it looks to be very real to me. If you lack trust in the Democratic Party, why vote for it? Why not demand that party pay attention to your ideals? What should be the response if the Democrats are so fractured they can't win. I guess the answer is to blame. Is it the fault of those who won't bend, or the fault of those who won't bend?

The link gives a range of opinions from the Sanders side.

I'm dealing with this with a number of Bernie fans and it is every bit as frustrating as dealing with Trump fans. They think they have the luxury of being picky. Fuck them all. The best thing that can happen to America, like I've said since 2016, is for the GOP to enjoy iron rule for 4 decades. After that, they can come back and tell me how principled it was not to vote for shithead Joe.

 

[sandorski]

I'm dealing with this with a number of Bernie fans and it is every bit as frustrating as dealing with Trump fans. They think they have the luxury of being picky. Fuck them all. The best thing that can happen to America, like I've said since 2016, is for the GOP to enjoy iron rule for 4 decades. After that, they can come back and tell me how principled it was not to vote for shithead Joe.

What is so great about Joe?

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm dealing with this with a number of Bernie fans and it is every bit as frustrating as dealing with Trump fans. They think they have the luxury of being picky. Fuck them all. The best thing that can happen to America, like I've said since 2016, is for the GOP to enjoy iron rule for 4 decades. After that, they can come back and tell me how principled it was not to vote for shithead Joe.

There are lots of ways to say fuck you but it's all fuck you in the end. My fuck you is better than yours. Have you anything to show the Sanders people besides fuck you that would earn their trust?

 

[darkswordsman17]

If Sanders supporters chose to vote for Sanders in the general election even if Biden is nominated, it would, with near certainty, result in Trump being elected. However, it could also send a big F-U message to the democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants.The short-term results of this would be bad (4 more years of Trump), but the long-term impacts could reinvigorate the Democratic part to start thinking more about putting forward a people's candidate, rather than just letting the party establishment pick who they want.

It very well could. The issue is, Bernie only runs as a Democrat to exploit the party for his own gain, often while he and his supporters trash the Democrats. Sure, Sanders tones it down and supports other Democrats but he's naive to the fact he's created a cult of personality where his supporters will only support him and if they don't get their way will lash out, and they are not supporting anyone but him.

And that too is the problem. The party establishment did/does not pick who would win. The registered Democrat voters do/did. Sanders supporters can't handle that though, and apparently can't get off their fucking asses to actually support Sanders in the primaries to begin with but then throw tantrums when he doesn't win. They demand that the Democrats just give Bernie the nomination so they can then vote for him in the general election. And then they scream that its fixed against Bernie.

The last issue I have with your post is, many of them are openly saying they aren't Democrats (they want a third party) and that they even fucking hate the Democrats. But yes, its the Democrats faults for not appeasing them? Just like it was for not appeasing the raging shithead right wingers supporting Turmp. Its nonsense.

 

[WelshBloke]

If Sanders supporters chose to vote for Sanders in the general election even if Biden is nominated, it would, with near certainty, result in Trump being elected. However, it could also send a big F-U message to the democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants.The short-term results of this would be bad (4 more years of Trump), but the long-term impacts could reinvigorate the Democratic part to start thinking more about putting forward a people's candidate, rather than just letting the party establishment pick who they want.

Or the Democratic party could set more stringent rules on who could stand as democratic party candidates?

 

[Moonbeam]

It very well could. The issue is, Bernie only runs as a Democrat to exploit the party for his own gain, often while he and his supporters trash the Democrats. Sure, Sanders tones it down and supports other Democrats but he's naive to the fact he's created a cult of personality where his supporters will only support him and if they don't get their way will lash out, and they are not supporting anyone but him.

And that too is the problem. The party establishment did/does not pick who would win. The registered Democrat voters do/did. Sanders supporters can't handle that though, and apparently can't get off their fucking asses to actually support Sanders in the primaries to begin with but then throw tantrums when he doesn't win. They demand that the Democrats just give Bernie the nomination so they can then vote for him in the general election. And then they scream that its fixed against Bernie.

The last issue I have with your post is, many of them are openly saying they aren't Democrats (they want a third party) and that they even fucking hate the Democrats. But yes, its the Democrats faults for not appeasing them? Just like it was for not appeasing the raging shithead right wingers supporting Turmp. Its nonsense.

I can assure you that the only problem I have with people avoiding my other post and the one that Vic originally brought the issue to my attention is that this moderate progressive split in the Party strikes me as a huge and vital issue that needs to be addressed. So thank you for your opinion. Seems you lash out at people you believe are lashing out. Great way to cure distrust. We create what we fear and you fear the Sanders folk will blow the election and insure Trump is back in. Your nasty temperment makes me almost wish you succeed. Almost, but like most of us you are only a programmed machine. Everything about the election will happen mechanically and the players, not wishing to see their role in it will scream and yell it's somebody else's fault.

 

[Blackjack200]

Or the Democratic party could set more stringent rules on who could stand as democratic party candidates?

Doesn't matter who the candidates are. The issue is that the party is in the awkward position of offering a platform that only appeals to rich corporate donors and upper middle class voters but also wanting the votes of progressives, young, and working class people. They can't have them. Fuck em.

 

[dank69]

What is so great about Joe?

This is what I'm talking about right here. I just literally called Joe a shithead and you are asking me what is so great about him. It's like people are blind, deaf and dumb. I spent half of my day arguing with a chick yesterday. She is a Bernie supporter, and will be voting for Joe because she knows as much as she hates him he is better than Trump, but asked me for help explaining to her other Bernie supporting friends how she can convince them to vote for Joe as well. I offered to help, and asked about what the objections to Joe were.

She listed like 10. Fine, let's address the first one, which will a multi-part problem all by itself: "Joe is a warmonger like a lot of establishment Dems" Okay...what makes you say he is a warmonger? "Oh, agreeing to huge military budgets makes you a warmonger." Okay...that doesn't really fit the definition of a warmonger. To me, a warmonger is someone who either A) starts or pushes for a new war or B) wants to continue an existing war when it would be possible to end it. "No no no, spending tax money on an already bloated military budget is a warmonger, are the weapons of war just going to sit around? No, they are going to be used." Okay, so what you are saying is that a Senator who pushes for federal money for say, a submarine base (we are in CT), is every bit as bad as a person who started the Iraq War? "Yes." Okay, are you delusional? Now, knowing she is one of those rare liberals who embrace gun ownership I put it in terms that she would understand: if what you say is true, then a person who owns a gun is every bit as bad a person as someone who shoots someone else in the head. This is where cognitive dissonance sets in and after trying to say that the difference is using tax money vs. personal money (lol) she starts whining about my use of the word delusional as name-calling and accuses me of straw-manning her while actually straw-manning me. I calm her down and teach her about the differences between straw man and reductio ad absurdum and show her how she is the one building straw men and then get back to the debate: Okay so do you now concede that starting the Iraq war is worse than getting money for the submarine base? Keep in mind you are not conceding that Dems are not warmongers. You can still call them warmongers because you don't actually understand what happened with the Iraq War vote and we can get to that discussion later. You would merely be conceding that starting the Iraq war is worse than getting money for the submarine base. "No, I'll never agree to that, sorry."

Yes, real productive. Not willing to give an inch in the face of absurdity, because of the deep fear that if she concedes to that she may end up conceding to all the other reasons and end up admitting to herself that maybe she strongly believed some things based on bad information or faulty logic or emotion. This is every person in the world that can't get past their ego. Fucking robots, just like Moonbeam has been saying for years.

 

[dank69]

If Sanders supporters chose to vote for Sanders in the general election even if Biden is nominated, it would, with near certainty, result in Trump being elected. However, it could also send a big F-U message to the democratic party and tell them to wake up and that liberals are not just going to get in line behind whoever the party establishment wants.The short-term results of this would be bad (4 more years of Trump), but the long-term impacts could reinvigorate the Democratic part to start thinking more about putting forward a people's candidate, rather than just letting the party establishment pick who they want.

No, you think you are sending that message but you are not. You are sending the message that Republicans can fuck your ass as hard and as deep as they want and you'll blame Democrats for it.

 

[Blackjack200]

WTF? If you fund a military that is fighting wars all over the world, you are absolutely a war monger. Holy shit.

 

[dank69]

Doesn't matter who the candidates are. The issue is that the party is in the awkward position of offering a platform that only appeals to rich corporate donors and upper middle class voters but also wanting the votes of progressives, young, and working class people. They can't have them. Fuck em.

Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you. It can't possibly be that more voters are afraid of Sanders than they are of Trump, and that catering to Sanders will turn off more voters than it gains. It must be the derp state establishment derp derp derp.

 

[ivwshane]

If you don’t trust the democratic then you’ve probably been indoctrinated into right wing propaganda and you just haven’t figured it out yet.

That’s not to say the democrat party is perfect and demands unquestioning trust but they certainly aren’t some political party up to no good.

The problem with Bernie bro’s and in increasingly more numbers Bernie supporters, is that they don’t seem to understand the severity of the situation we are in. Our democracy is literally falling apart and they think now is a good time to start making demands even though they don’t have a majority of Americans with them. Now is not a good time, right now we need to restore our democracy and harden our institutions from the weaknesses trump has exposed. Once that’s fixed then and only then will we not only be prepared for a “revolution” but our democracy will be able to handle it.

 

[dank69]

WTF? If you fund a military that is fighting wars all over the world, you are absolutely a war monger. Holy shit.

Yup, buying a gun is the same a murdering someone with it. Holy shit indeed.

 

[Blackjack200]

Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you. It can't possibly be that more voters are afraid of Sanders than they are of Trump, and that catering to Sanders will turn off more voters than it gains. It must be the derp state establishment derp derp derp.

Joe Biden is hostile to everything I stand for politically, yeah, I know, it's so insane that I won't vote for him.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yup, buying a gun is the same a murdering someone with it. Holy shit indeed.

That analogy doesn't work on any level. A much better analogy is if you were paying money to a friend and giving him weapons and telling him to go murder people all over the world, but then claiming that you're innocent because you didn't pull the trigger. Your friend's critique of Joe Biden is dead on.