Some Bar Owners Defy Colorado Smoking Ban

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, if no one ever gets kicked out of bars, then why does almost every bar have a bouncer?


Mike, I bolded my point for your convenience. And you even quoted it with the bold. Lovely straw man there. I'll do my own for illustration purposes: you must be an alcoholic. Hey man, if that's your thing, good for you, but drunk driving is so dangerous that we really need to bring back prohibition!
Now don't you see how stupid your argument looks?

I caught the fact that you personally don't smoke when you first posted it. I don't think your alcoholic example is the same. Is banning smoking in public places the same as prohibition? I don't think it is. I would be in favor of harsh legislature for alcoholics as well. I support mandatory breathalyzers in vehicles after a person gets a DUI. There are people who enjoy their vices on their own, and there are people who force their vices on to others. That is what I am getting at.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
WHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I want to smoke, kill myself slowly, annoy the crap out of those around me, and defy the will of the majority!!! God dammit, it's my right!!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

</artie>

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

Are you talking about outdoors? You do know that the concentration of smoke in an outdoor setting is far to low to be any danger whatsoever. In fact, the fossil fuel emissions pose a FAR greater risk to you. Not to mention that it is quite easy to avoid smoke in an outdoor setting.

 

[Vic]

He already said that the possible health risk of 2nd hand smoke has nothing to with his position.

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

Are you talking about outdoors? You do know that the concentration of smoke in an outdoor setting is far to low to be any danger whatsoever. In fact, the fossil fuel emissions pose a FAR greater risk to you. Not to mention that it is quite easy to avoid smoke in an outdoor setting.

There are other aspects of smoke that I dislike. Am I being self righteous or selfish for not wanting my clothes to smell like smoke? It's like that episode of Seinfeld where the valet guy transfers his B.O. to Jerry's BMW. It's offensive. This is why if I am walking on the street and someone is smoking in front of me, I will wait for him/her to get far enough ahead of me so that I don't have to be near it. At some point, I get tired of working around someone else's "need".

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Vic
He already said that the possible health risk of 2nd hand smoke has nothing to with his position.

I didn't, actually. I said that the health risks vary.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

Are you talking about outdoors? You do know that the concentration of smoke in an outdoor setting is far to low to be any danger whatsoever. In fact, the fossil fuel emissions pose a FAR greater risk to you. Not to mention that it is quite easy to avoid smoke in an outdoor setting.

There are other aspects of smoke that I dislike. Am I being self righteous or selfish for not wanting my clothes to smell like smoke? It's like that episode of Seinfeld where the valet guy transfers his B.O. to Jerry's BMW. It's offensive. This is why if I am walking on the street and someone is smoking in front of me, I will wait for him/her to get far enough ahead of me so that I don't have to be near it. At some point, I get tired of working around someone else's "need".

You're going to run into smells you don't like no matter what you do. Welcome to life. I'm sure you've given off a few odors someone else didn't like at least once in your life.

Your distaste is no reason to limit the freedom of others. Sorry. What next? Mandatory showers? A ban on perfume? A ban on flatulence?

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

Are you talking about outdoors? You do know that the concentration of smoke in an outdoor setting is far to low to be any danger whatsoever. In fact, the fossil fuel emissions pose a FAR greater risk to you. Not to mention that it is quite easy to avoid smoke in an outdoor setting.

There are other aspects of smoke that I dislike. Am I being self righteous or selfish for not wanting my clothes to smell like smoke? It's like that episode of Seinfeld where the valet guy transfers his B.O. to Jerry's BMW. It's offensive. This is why if I am walking on the street and someone is smoking in front of me, I will wait for him/her to get far enough ahead of me so that I don't have to be near it. At some point, I get tired of working around someone else's "need".

You're going to run into smells you don't like no matter what you do. Welcome to life. I'm sure you've given off a few odors someone else didn't like at least once in your life.

Your distaste is no reason to limit the freedom of others. Sorry. What next? Mandatory showers? A ban on perfume? A ban on flatulence?

It isn't the fact that I encounter the smell. It's the fact that that smell is then transfered to me and I then smell like that smell. Hence the Seinfeld example where the B.O. was transfered to the car. If someone's B.O. smell was able to transfer to other people within less then a minute of exposure, I would be in favor of mandatory showers.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike


I read them, so I must have missed your point. Can you explain it another way?

Mike, it's this easy:

If you're in someone else's business, and somebody next to you lights up, your beef is not with them, but the owner. The owner chose to allow smoking in his establishment. Tell the owner you don't like smoking. He can either choose to ban smoking, or not. If he chooses not to, he has elected to risk losing your business. You only recourse then is to take your business elsewhere.

That's it. It's that easy. Don't do buiness woth those who allow smoking on their property if it offends you.

I do just that. I deal with it, walk away for awhile, or leave all together. My problem is that dealing with smokers doesn't always occur in bars or restaurants.

Are you talking about outdoors? You do know that the concentration of smoke in an outdoor setting is far to low to be any danger whatsoever. In fact, the fossil fuel emissions pose a FAR greater risk to you. Not to mention that it is quite easy to avoid smoke in an outdoor setting.

There are other aspects of smoke that I dislike. Am I being self righteous or selfish for not wanting my clothes to smell like smoke? It's like that episode of Seinfeld where the valet guy transfers his B.O. to Jerry's BMW. It's offensive. This is why if I am walking on the street and someone is smoking in front of me, I will wait for him/her to get far enough ahead of me so that I don't have to be near it. At some point, I get tired of working around someone else's "need".

You're going to run into smells you don't like no matter what you do. Welcome to life. I'm sure you've given off a few odors someone else didn't like at least once in your life.

Your distaste is no reason to limit the freedom of others. Sorry. What next? Mandatory showers? A ban on perfume? A ban on flatulence?

It isn't the fact that I encounter the smell. It's the fact that that smell is then transfered to me and I then smell like that smell. Hence the Seinfeld example where the B.O. was transfered to the car. If someone's B.O. smell was able to transfer to other people within less then a minute of exposure, I would be in favor of mandatory showers.

Oh come on now. A brief outdoor encounter with smoke is not going to make you stink. You stink more when you pump gas, for fsck's sake. Even worse with exhaust fumes when you are on a city street.

 

[imported_Mike]

I would hope not. The more smokers there are, the higher the possibility for increased exposure.

So, there is a group of people waiting to cross the street on a street corner and someone is smoking. Should the smoker step back and smoke away from the group, or should the group just deal with it or step back themselves? I have to tell you, the majority of smokers that I see with a blatant disregard for who is around them disgusts me to the nth degree. This is why I feel no guilt when I see legislation in place that takes away their rights. If that makes me an asshole, so be it. Maybe I am stuck in the mud and I should realize two assholes don't make a right.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike
Maybe I am stuck in the mud and I should realize two assholes don't make a right.

And there you have your answer.

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

 

[imported_Mike]

That might be my problem. I think you might be thinking of a 30 second exposure though. I live in a big city. When I go downtown on the weekends. I have to deal with it it walking on the street, waiting on the corner to cross over, waiting in line to get in somehwere....just about everywhere. Maybe that is just a product of the enviornment? Since all bars ban smoking inside here in CA, everyone who smokes has to do so outside. This might create an overexposure situation.

 

[imported_Mike]

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

 

[BlancoNino]

Instead of having bars where smoking is allowed and bars where smoking isn't allowed so that everyone gets what they want, we now have only bars where smoking isn't allowed so only one group can have their way.

I guess I don't see the logic.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

Voting away people's freedoms simply because they are a minor annoyance is a two way street.

It amazes me how people are so willing to vote away freedoms simply because it isn't their bull getting gored.

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

Voting away people's freedoms simply because they are a minor annoyance is a two way street.

It amazes me how people are so willing to vote away freedoms simply because it isn't their bull getting gored.

To me, it's more then a minor annoyance. I do see your point though. Obviously an annoyance is in the eye of the beholder. Major or minor, if we start taking away freedoms based on that...nothing will be safe.

 

[Satchel]

Originally posted by: Mike

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

Which minor annoyance of yours should we outlaw next?

You mentioned waiting at crosswalks earlier, I've always thought that the joggers that wait at crosswalks stink really bad and sometimes I even think that their stench transfers over to me somehow, I hate that! Lets make it illegal!

Sometimes people walk their dogs and I'll see them stopped at a crosswalk with me. I live in Portland so it rains a lot. Have you ever smelled a wet dog? It's pretty bad. Lets make it illegal!

Where does it end?

Edit - You conceded the point right before my post. My apologies for the sarcasm.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Mike

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

Voting away people's freedoms simply because they are a minor annoyance is a two way street.

It amazes me how people are so willing to vote away freedoms simply because it isn't their bull getting gored.

To me, it's more then a minor annoyance. I do see your point though. Obviously an annoyance is in the eye of the beholder. Major or minor, if we start taking away freedoms based on that...nothing will be safe.

Thanks for looking at it objectively.

And like I said, if it's such a major annoyance to you, you really need to take a hard look at your life. How many people in the world would love to just be bothered by the occasional whiff of outdoor cigarette smoke rather than face the day to day trials of their lives?

 

[Excelsior]

Wow, I can't believe anyone is trying to defend the ban (other than the fact that it is law).

It is ridiculous to tell business owners that they can't allow smoking in their bars.

I am also a non-smoker but If I choose to go to a bar that allows smoking, then it is my choice. If I don't like smoke, I'll go to an establishment that doesn't allow smoking. It is that simple. This is insane.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
WHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I want to smoke, kill myself slowly, annoy the crap out of those around me, and defy the will of the majority!!! God dammit, it's my right!!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

If we take a vote and the majority agrees that Jules Maximus should be violently sodomized with a broom handle, will you go along with it? It is the will of the majority after all. You wouldn't want defy that would you?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
WHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I want to smoke, kill myself slowly, annoy the crap out of those around me, and defy the will of the majority!!! God dammit, it's my right!!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Whaaa! It's my right to tell others what to do on their own property and with their own bodies! Whaa! It's my right to be self righteous about laying claim to what's not mine! Whaaa, if more than 50% of people believe something it must be right!

The founding fathers feared people like you getting the vote, and here we are.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
I remember reading that when the ban first started in NY, that some bar owners pulled the state run gambling machines in protest. Their thoughts were... you screw with our income, we will screw with yours. The state tried to guilt trip them that the money from the machines went for kids' and schools and etc. Ha.

Legally... I think that it should be up to individual bar owners to decide if smoking should be allowed or not.

But on a personal level, as a smoker, I agree with the ban in restaurants. I can even see the point in bar/restuarants and food chains. But theban in beer and shot joints is bullshit.

:thumbsup:

As a non-smoker I agree :thumbsup:

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Mike

If the occasional brief exposure to smoke outside is that offensive to you and bothers you THAT much, maybe you need to reevaluate your life and take note of how good you really have it.

I don't break down and start cursing every smoker out. It doesn't bother me THAT much, I just don't forget it when it comes time to vote.

Voting away people's freedoms simply because they are a minor annoyance is a two way street.

It amazes me how people are so willing to vote away freedoms simply because it isn't their bull getting gored.

QFMFT!

What happens when its something you like getting banned because it's unpopular. People ignore the old platitude "They came first for the Communists..." because it's been said so much, but it's very true. We are traveling down the very same road that continental Europe did in the late 19th century. It led to fascism there and it will here too. In the process, we are forgetting the unique English / American character that made our society so amazingly successful in the first place.

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: Vic

If 2nd hand smoke is such a health hazard, then why aren't you addicted? Nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs on earth, far more so even than heroin, especially from the first dose (IIRC some 90% of all people who try smoking just once become addicted).

Since when does addiction = health hazard? "I drink gazoline but Im not addicted so its fine!" There is alot of proof for the health hazards of passive smoking..

I dont care about smoking anywhere but in indoor "public" areas, bars and such. I smell like ******, my throught (sp?) is soar and often I loose some of my voice.

Realistically smoking and non-smoking bars dont work. People go to bars to meet friends and most have smorkers and nonsmokers as friends. It has to be one way or the other to work.

Imo, smokers should have their own room where they can smoke without bothering others or just go outside. Doesnt seem to be too much to ask...

EDIT: "It is estimated that passive smoking kills 53,000 nonsmokers per year, making it the 3rd leading cause of preventable death in the U.S."