Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy - now with more FBI raiding

[ProfJohn]

If we didn't need China's money to run our government we could slap tariffs on their products when they cheat and we wouldn't have this problem.

Amazing how many of our problems are caused by too much debt.

 

[glenn1]

This is I believe an illustration of the consequences of our losing what has been termed our commons. We no longer have the manufacturing technology expertise to compete in high tech fields, except for low production, highly specialized fields like military hardware. This is a damned shame and it's killing our country, and the longer we wait to fix it, the more difficult (and expensive) that becomes. And the less likely that it succeeds.

Then either you're just not looking, or you don't realize how much manufacturing the U.S. still does. It's just the kind that requires massive amounts of assembly line workers, or for low-end goods like textiles. The U.S. has some world-class manufacturing companies, some of which are outstanding investments to boot - one of my favorites for some time now is Standex (ticker SXI). They make everything from food service equipment to hydraulics to electronic components. I could name dozens of other superb companies doing manufacturing in the U.S. as well.

Profjohn makes a good point though about government giving money to artificially created companies. These companies are always speculative, but government financing so much of a company will always be done on a political basis. I like to see these start-up companies - they are the very definition of innovation - but I don't like to see government giving them money for nothing. Government selecting winners and losers usually just means government selecting holes in which to throw money.

As others have pointed out, in some situations having government support would get a company to critical mass for their product. I would much rather see them doing so by giving the company purchase orders for their goods than investing in the company. When the government "invests", it winds up owning crap like Chrysler, never an Apple.

 

[bfdd]

What do you think a third world country means? Have you ever been to one? Low wages, unsafe working conditions, polluted and dirty living conditions. That's what it's like to be in a third world country. That's what we need to do if we want to produce things cheaper than in China. So do you want to be the worker making a dollar an hour, destroying your health, and coming home to a shithole shack?

And I'm the last one to argue for the status quo. We need new ideas. Not the dumb invest in solar panel Democratic ideas and not the dumb, let's out-third-world the third-world Republican ideas.

those won't happen. proof in that we've already worked away from them. UNIONS FORMED WITHOUT GOVERNMENT HELP. Unions are protected by the 1st amendment. Shitty polluted living conditions, who would settle for that? Vote with your WALLET don't buy from those ass fucks. Americans can't even compete with illegals due to minimum wage laws and other barriers to the entrance of employment, least of all China. If I want to do a job for 5 bucks an hour some other dude wants to do for 7, sucks for him. How many people do you think are going to swarm over all the 5 dollar an hour job postings? How many people are going to give a fuck about that job? not very fucking many, so they'll pay more. seriously why are people so dense?

i'm not saying deregulate EVERYTHING, i'm saying to pull back some of our regulations. small business can't compete with big business in a lot of industries because of some redonkulous environmental regulations or employee regulations we have. it's goddamn miserable. we over priced and over regulated ourselves out of the market, how can you not see that? who cares if you make 100k a year when it holds the same purchasing power of your grand fathers 8k a year.

 

[Infohawk]

How many people do you think are going to swarm over all the 5 dollar an hour job postings? How many people are going to give a fuck about that job? not very fucking many, so they'll pay more. seriously why are people so dense?

You shouldn't throw around terms like "dense" when you say such silly things. Do you know what the alternative to 5 dollar shitty jobs? No jobs. China will do them. Your idea of wages increasing only makes sense if the US labor market is cut off from the rest of the world (which I'm pretty much advocating except I say that we add in other developed countries). Wages are not going to rise when a billion Chinese people are keeping them down!

i'm not saying deregulate EVERYTHING, i'm saying to pull back some of our regulations. small business can't compete with big business in a lot of industries because of some redonkulous environmental regulations or employee regulations we have.

You can do all that and it still won't make sense for a multinational company to hire in the US. It won't until Americans are willing to work for as little as Chinese in the same shitty deadly conditions that Chinese work in.

 

[bfdd]

infohawk, fuck multinationals. we can't even have small business open due to them. the largest employer

 

[Infohawk]

infohawk, fuck multinationals. we can't even have small business open due to them. the largest employer

The largest employer...?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The report I heard said the issue isn't the lack of a market, it was the foreign competition.

Big surprise. This is consistent with my claim that jobs created by technological advances--jobs created in "Next Big Thing" technology--will end up being done overseas and won't benefit us.

 

[Darwin333]

Now, China is subsidizing their solar panel companies - they can undercut everyone else. The majority of major manufacturers are in China now. Pretty soon, everyone will rely on China for their solar panels. And, unless you have a better freaking idea for power generation, solar and wind are two of the huge players in the future.

We pretty much already do rely on China for the vast majority of the solar panels we use. Canadian solar still has a decent presence in the market, a few German companies (could very well still be made in China) and sanyo are all i can think of off the top of my head.

If prices remain at this level for long I wouldn't expect any non-subsidized manufacturer to remain in business. This is great for the industry and consumers, sub $4/watt installed in young markets was unheard of but is now the new norm and getting cheaper, but its bad for manufacturers.

This was going to happen regardless though. In an industry in which a dime a watt is the difference between selling a ton or selling none, we simply can't compete with Chinas wages and complete lack of environmental regs. Even if we invent a new super efficient way to manufacturer them it won't take the Chinese companies long to duplicate it. We could put tarrifs on cheap Chinese glass but that would hurt US integration by significantly raising costs.

So I guess the question comes down to, do we want to make solar panels that we can't export or would we rather have much more solar power online.

 

[Thump553]

First Solar (FSLR) is an American company (Arizonia HQ) that is THE leader in solar panels, with plants mostly in the US and Europe-they are now expanding INTO China.

Everyone is assuming the entire $585 million is lost-it is almost certain the US negotiated a secured lender status for this loan. Also, according the the article linked in the original post, this is to be a Chapter 11 (reorganization) not a Chapter 7 (liquidation) bankruptcy.

Finally, as far a PJ's protest against the US incubating growth industries, that is how we got cell phones, wireless phones, calculators, PCs, even calculators, jets, etc. We should not abandon our efforts to expand our industries, just do things to do a better job of keeping them here.

I'd rather see a hundred of these type loans than a couple billion in government money to build a new sports arena.

 

[sm625]

Yet another mass raping of the taxpayer brought to you by the bu**f**king morons who thought that big government was a good idea. When has big government ever done anything wise with our money? I just wonder how we were ever able to be so successful in the space program. Then it occurred to me how little corruption there was in that program. Its all so corrupt now that only a fool would believe they could ever spend money wisely.

 

[bfdd]

The largest employer...?

small business creates the most jobs. no small business is the single largest employer, but together they are huge. a lot of the bullshit we have put in place because of big business hurts small business. for instance it would be quite hard to start an asbestos removal company here in California. we have so many regulations over the handling and disposal of asbestos, only a larger company could afford to be in that business.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Yet another mass raping of the taxpayer brought to you by the bu**f**king morons who thought that big government was a good idea.

Wait a second. Isn't our nation's exposure to the low wages (and lack of environmental and labor regulations) in China a reflection of free market policies?

Encouraging technological advance and the manufacturing of technologically advanced products isn't moronic. What's moronic is our free trade policies that allow all of that work (for our own domestic consumption) to be done overseas.

When has big government ever done anything wise with our money? I just wonder how we were ever able to be so successful in the space program. Then it occurred to me how little corruption there was in that program. Its all so corrupt now that only a fool would believe they could ever spend money wisely.

The government probably does good things with the tax revenue all the time, but it doesn't make huge headlines.

What's funny is that free market dogmatists like yourself think that the free market always does wise things with people's money and the distribution of resources. In the meantime big government nation's like China are eating our lunch, and the people in the evil Western European people's states have a higher quality of life than us.

 

[fskimospy]

The real problem is that we are giving money to artificially created companies.

Someone in government decided that have a solar cell plant would be a good idea so they went out and created one. But there was never a solid basis for the company in the first place.

If there was a solid basis then someone else would have already started it and would have been making money at it. Once again government interference into the free market produces bad results.

Hahaha, chalk up another dumb post for Pro-Jo. Clearly if there is ever a good basis for producing something, private industry would already have done it.

If there was a need for the internet, private industry would have already created it. If there was a need for a national freeway system, private industry would have already created it, etc, etc.

The government has a long history of promoting certain technologies, paving the way for other ones, etc when they are not necessarily economically feasible for private industry to do. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Your blanket doctrine that it's always a bad idea is just ideological fanaticism.

 

[fskimospy]

Yet another mass raping of the taxpayer brought to you by the bu**f**king morons who thought that big government was a good idea. When has big government ever done anything wise with our money? I just wonder how we were ever able to be so successful in the space program. Then it occurred to me how little corruption there was in that program. Its all so corrupt now that only a fool would believe they could ever spend money wisely.

Hahaha.

'When has big government ever done anything wise with our money?'

'Man, that space program was successful.'

 

[ohnoes]

If we didn't need China's money to run our government we could slap tariffs on their products when they cheat and we wouldn't have this problem.

Amazing how many of our problems are caused by too much debt.

We already have tariffs in place for certain Chinese products. Debt isn't what's preventing U.S. from implementing tariffs. It's the potential for a trade war.

 

[Infohawk]

We already have tariffs in place for certain Chinese products. Debt isn't what's preventing U.S. from implementing tariffs. It's the potential for a trade war.

Then they obviously aren't high enough. A trade war would only be a short-term problem. For example, maybe Boeing would sell less planes to China in the short-term. That would hurt Boeing, yes, but China is going to bypass Boeing eventually anyway. At first it will be some mandatory Chinese partner of Boeing that siphons profits and steals technology. Then they will go independent and China will stop buying Boeing planes.

Our country needs to stop thinking short-term and think more about the long-term implications of transferring our economy to China and the rest of the third world.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Whatever... the exact definition of outsourced isn't what's important here. What's important is that we can't even develop new sectors.

This exactly the kind of industries that the free-trade weenies have been saying we need to develop. "We don't want to produce steel; we don't want to build ships; we need to use our smart engineers to develop new industries that China will trade with us for." Wrong. Once you start destroying your economy, nobody needs you for anything anymore except for natural resources which is the next pathetic thing you see free trade-weenies talk about. We're going to make money selling our timber and glass to China! How dumb is that. The third world has always been exporting its natural resources and yet still living in squalor (oil might be the one exception). Is that what we want for ourselves?

Anyway, I hope everyone makes a big deal out of this story. This is reality slamming in the face of the Democrats' naive plans at creating new jobs. Not that the Republicans plan is any better. It might be more realistic but it involves reducing ourselves to third-world status so we can compete with the Chinese. People need to get over their tariffs destroy economies fears and start to think about practical ways of keeping the US a modern economy.

What level of GDP per capita do you think the US would have as a closed economy? Remember in the good old days we were a big net exporter. Tariffs won't increase exports one dollar, they'll just decrease imports and raise prices.

 

[ShawnD1]

What level of GDP per capita do you think the US would have as a closed economy? Remember in the good old days we were a big net exporter. Tariffs won't increase exports one dollar, they'll just decrease imports and raise prices.

What it does is keep more money in the system. Pay for some overpriced American product, an American worker gets that money, then that American buys one of your overpriced products.

Right now the situation is much worse. You buy a Chinese product, the money goes to Chinese workers, and those Chinese workers then buy and sell products from each other. Money leaves your system and it doesn't come back. You buy Chinese products, but the Chinese do not buy American products (because they don't exist or are too expensive).

Do you want money to move in a circle within the country or do you want it to move out of the country and never come back?

 

[Infohawk]

What level of GDP per capita do you think the US would have as a closed economy? Remember in the good old days we were a big net exporter. Tariffs won't increase exports one dollar, they'll just decrease imports and raise prices.

The US economy would suffer at first depending on the level of tariffs. But the economy would restructure and in the long term we'd have a growing economy and higher GDP than we have now.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

What it does is keep more money in the system. Pay for some overpriced American product, an American worker gets that money, then that American buys one of your overpriced products.

Right now the situation is much worse. You buy a Chinese product, the money goes to Chinese workers, and those Chinese workers then buy and sell products from each other. Money leaves your system and it doesn't come back. You buy Chinese products, but the Chinese do not buy American products (because they don't exist or are too expensive).

Do you want money to move in a circle within the country or do you want it to move out of the country and never come back?

I want us to produce goods and services that we have a comparative advantage in and trade for the rest because that is the most economically efficient strategy. The US is still the world's 3rd largest exporter so someone is buying our shit. As the Chinese get wealthier they will buy more things that we can make but they can't like cars.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

The US economy would suffer at first depending on the level of tariffs. But the economy would restructure and in the long term we'd have a growing economy and higher GDP than we have now.

That's a fantasy. The US became wealthy by exporting to the rest of the world, even after it stabilized GDP per capital would be lower under your closed economy.

 

[ShawnD1]

As the Chinese get wealthier they will buy more things that we can make but they can't like cars.

Why can't they build cars? If they can't build them, they'll probably just import them from Japan and Korea.

 

[soccerballtux]

Depends who is buying it. For you and me, green is expensive. For companies, green is sometimes cheaper. Example: traffic signals with solar panels on top, LED lights, and a rechargeable lead acid battery. The LED and solar mean it never needs to be plugged in, and the battery doesn't need to be swapped very often. That greatly reduces maintenance cost. Sending a guy out in a truck to change or charge the battery is expensive as hell.

LEDs and solar panels are made for each other. Next to my walk way I have a bunch of solar charged LED lights. The sun charges a single NiCd battery and it shines all night :thumbsup:
(yes I know nicad batteries are horrible for that type of cycling. lead acid would be a lot better)

I'm sorry, what? Solar panel on top of a traffic signal? haha. How much power do traffic signals take?

 

[Yreka]

I'm sorry, what? Solar panel on top of a traffic signal? haha. How much power do traffic signals take?

Solar traffic lights are becoming really popular around here. The bigger ones ( where there is room) have an individual pole with panels on it off to the side, and a little battery box at the base.. This powers the lights and computer for a large ( 4 lane each direction+2 turn lanes etc) intersection.. I dont imagine they use a huge amount of power, but there is more to it than turning the lights on. There several traffic sensors to monitor + associated logic, light timing etc.

Not sure what the ROI is, but from a tech standpoint its pretty cool

http://www.solarlighting.com/

 

[woolfe9999]

Take oil imports out of the equation and we don't even have a trade deficit. That is a natural resource that we import because we use immense amounts of it and we can't produce enough of it domestically. It gives the illusion that we are somehow behind the manufacturing curve in every area. Truth is, the US is still the largest manufacturing economy in the world. I feel like these facts need to be inserted here because my impression from reading posts is that people do not realize it.

Anyway, with respect to the OP, we have subsidized oil and gas in this country for what, now, 70 years, by giving them tax breaks. According to critics on the right, it is a waste of tax payer money to guarentee a loan in an emerging industry that is competing with a related industry that we have been subsidizing heavily. And one which contributes a lot of financial muscle to our political process, incidentally.

So when it is proposed to get rid of these tax breaks the right is having none of that. The subsidies are supposed to be needed when an industry is in its infancy, not 70 years down the line. Seems like we are subsidizing one industry well beyond its arguable public benefit while we then oppose subsidizing an emerging one. One is a waste of money and the other not. Right.

- wolf