Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy - now with more FBI raiding

[Darwin333]

It's both.

All the 'green' stuff that was touted as being an economy booster has been outsourced to china, yet again. Did anyone really believe that it wouldn't be?

It was not "outsourced" to China. It was never actually here in any significant way to be outsourced to anywhere in the first place. Probably a good thing anyway because most of the Chinese glass that is purchased in the US is made by non-US companies. So if we did have a large industry making panels it would be going broke regardless.

This one isn't outsourcing buddy, its simply another country kicking our ass at making something plain and simple. I seriously doubt that anyone really wants to compete with Chinas complete lack of environmental regulation and absurdly low wages on this one anyway.

Lots of other countries make a bunch of solar panels that can talk about "outsourcing" but we aren't really one of them.

On topic, they did have a really intriguing design. I never used them or saw them used myself but I did talk to them at length at a few trade shows. The panels are big ass cylinders pre-installed on a rack that they said you could basically sit on a flat roof and it was rated for 130MPH winds. They also claimed to gather a tad more light due to the supposedly "360 degree" design. At the end of the day the price just wasn't competitive regardless of how cool the design/product was.

 

[Ronstang]

As for burning through $535 million, there is a $733 million manufacturing plant in Fremont, Ca., to show for the money.

And if this company does not come out of bankruptcy alive in the long run what is it going to become a facility that manufactures hope?

 

[CallMeJoe]

And if this company does not come out of bankruptcy alive in the long run what is it going to become a facility that manufactures hope?

My point was that the money was largely spent on physical plant, not burned away exclusively on marketing as was so widely seen in the .com boom days (and as PJ, IMHO, was implying).

 

[bfdd]

My point was that the money was largely spent on physical plant, not burned away exclusively on marketing as was so widely seen in the .com boom days (and as PJ, IMHO, was implying).

physical plant or not, it was a waste. they cannot produce something of value and it cost hundreds of millions of dollars to find out. that's a PRETTY SHITTY BUSINESS PLAN. You keep trying to defend these guys and all I hear are reasons to excuse failure. probably one of those people who think keeping score for childrens sports is bad for them.

 

[Darwin333]

True dat. (Damn I'm so hood.) In some places we're even seeing (and specifying) solar site lighting, because the cost of bringing in power is higher than the cost of periodically changing batteries and cleaning solar panels. High efficacy LEDs and computer-aided reflector design & aiming make these not only possible, but in some cases practical.


This is my understanding as well. Solar panels are still being sold - although granted, except for specialty items like Shawn mentions, only with government subsidies - but Solyndra simply proved unable to compete with Chinese-made panels. I believe they closed their factories and moved them to China, but that left them with nothing to bring to the table.

This is I believe an illustration of the consequences of our losing what has been termed our commons. We no longer have the manufacturing technology expertise to compete in high tech fields, except for low production, highly specialized fields like military hardware. This is a damned shame and it's killing our country, and the longer we wait to fix it, the more difficult (and expensive) that becomes. And the less likely that it succeeds.

Profjohn makes a good point though about government giving money to artificially created companies. These companies are always speculative, but government financing so much of a company will always be done on a political basis. I like to see these start-up companies - they are the very definition of innovation - but I don't like to see government giving them money for nothing. Government selecting winners and losers usually just means government selecting holes in which to throw money.

To be fair this was a "cutting edge" solar module when they opened up shop. Hell, it still sort of is because it has yet to really get cost competitive.

They use a CIGS module (copper indium gallium diselenide) which is very new and in almost every way (except cost) superior to your average mono or poly-crystalline panel that you are used to seeing. It is definitely a step closer to much better and more efficient BIPV (Building integrated photovoltaics) which is basically solar integrated into building materials that will be exposed to the sun. Think roofing materials, windows, wall panels, etc, stuff that has to be installed anyway. Eventually these products will be cost effective to install on most buildings and technology like CIGS gets us one step closer.

Investing in something like that is always a crap shoot but if the dice roll right you can win big. In this case they obviously didn't. I think the reason they had to use the cylindrical shape is the module had to be completely sealed as water reacted badly with one of the elements it is made with and imo that was one of its biggest drawbacks.

 

[CallMeJoe]

physical plant or not, it was a waste. they cannot produce something of value and it cost hundreds of millions of dollars to find out. that's a PRETTY SHITTY BUSINESS PLAN. You keep trying to defend these guys and all I hear are reasons to excuse failure.

My point here is just that the case against the government loan guarantee is not as cut-and-dried as you and PJ seem to think. If predicting energy market conditions five years in advance is as easy as you imply, you need to be running a part of that industry.

probably one of those people who think keeping score for childrens sports is bad for them.

???? Can't argue without a Strawman?

 

[Infohawk]

It was not "outsourced" to China.

Whatever... the exact definition of outsourced isn't what's important here. What's important is that we can't even develop new sectors.

This exactly the kind of industries that the free-trade weenies have been saying we need to develop. "We don't want to produce steel; we don't want to build ships; we need to use our smart engineers to develop new industries that China will trade with us for." Wrong. Once you start destroying your economy, nobody needs you for anything anymore except for natural resources which is the next pathetic thing you see free trade-weenies talk about. We're going to make money selling our timber and glass to China! How dumb is that. The third world has always been exporting its natural resources and yet still living in squalor (oil might be the one exception). Is that what we want for ourselves?

Anyway, I hope everyone makes a big deal out of this story. This is reality slamming in the face of the Democrats' naive plans at creating new jobs. Not that the Republicans plan is any better. It might be more realistic but it involves reducing ourselves to third-world status so we can compete with the Chinese. People need to get over their tariffs destroy economies fears and start to think about practical ways of keeping the US a modern economy.

 

[CallMeJoe]

..I think the reason they had to use the cylindrical shape is the module had to be completely sealed as water reacted badly with one of the elements it is made with and imo that was one of its biggest drawbacks.

If I understand correctly, the cylindrical shape was intended to keep a significant portion of the cell surface perpendicular to sunlight without having to "steer" a flat panel. It also makes the cell arrays more resistant to wind.

 

[Darwin333]

Well, they failed right?

Did we give them money because they had a good long term business plan or because they were in a politically correct industry?

And how do you burn through $535 million in two years?

Their long term business plan probably did not account for the price of solar dropping far faster then anyone in the world thought it would. They were selling a cutting edge "niche" product that did fit a market need and when I last heard their pitch would have eventually been competitive when considering market trends at that time.

It would be akin to drilling an oil well that costs $60/bbl to produce and in 2 years the price being $55/bbl. The business plan, at the time it was written and executed, was sound but market conditions changed radically.

 

[Ronstang]

My point was that the money was largely spent on physical plant, not burned away exclusively on marketing as was so widely seen in the .com boom days (and as PJ, IMHO, was implying).

My point is ANOTHER shiny new empty manufacturing facility in CA of all places is basically a waste.

 

[Darwin333]

If I understand correctly, the cylindrical shape was intended to keep a significant portion of the cell surface perpendicular to sunlight without having to "steer" a flat panel. It also makes the cell arrays more resistant to wind.

That is correct but the bigger issue is that it must be completely airtight meaning that it was a "thin film" panel (check out UniSolars thin film for an idea or what it is but the panel is literally rolled up and shipped to you and then it is unrolled and adhered) but it had to be enclosed in a glass capsule or something that allowed 0 moisture in. This limited their options as a completely enclosed flat surface vastly reduces efficiency (more than half is not facing the sun, ever). So they went with the cylindrical design which did offer the advantages you named but also increased the efficiency to acceptable levels.

 

[Darwin333]

Whatever... the exact definition of outsourced isn't what's important here. What's important is that we can't even develop new sectors.

This exactly the kind of industries that the free-trade weenies have been saying we need to develop. "We don't want to produce steel; we don't want to build ships; we need to use our smart engineers to develop new industries that China will trade with us for." Wrong. Once you start destroying your economy, nobody needs you for anything anymore except for natural resources which is the next pathetic thing you see free trade-weenies talk about. We're going to make money selling our timber and glass to China! How dumb is that. The third world has always been exporting its natural resources and yet still living in squalor (oil might be the one exception). Is that what we want for ourselves?

Anyway, I hope everyone makes a big deal out of this story. This is reality slamming in the face of the Democrats' naive plans at creating new jobs. Not that the Republicans plan is any better. It might be more realistic but it involves reducing ourselves to third-world status so we can compete with the Chinese. People need to get over their tariffs destroy economies fears and start to think about practical ways of keeping the US a modern economy.

I agree with a lot of what you posted but at the same time most of that simply doesn't apply in this particular case. It was a long shot cutting edge niche product. Was it worth it, I don't know, but if it works out you are a hero and if it doesn't you are a zero. This one didn't work and frankly I agree with their reasoning. The bottom fell out of the solar panel market. I am in the industry and I still can't believe how cheap "glass" has gotten and continues to get. Locally we have probably seen the price of solar (installed) drop by 40% over the last 2 years or so. No one expected that.

 

[Engineer]

If there was a solid basis then someone else would have already started it and would have been making money at it. Once again government interference into the free market produces bad results.

Yet you are posting on the very government created internet.....must be a failure! :sneaky:

 

[bfdd]

My point here is just that the case against the government loan guarantee is not as cut-and-dried as you and PJ seem to think. If predicting energy market conditions five years in advance is as easy as you imply, you need to be running a part of that industry.

???? Can't argue without a Strawman?

Uh... it was pretty obvious. rare earth minerals are expensive. the largest exporter of said rare earth minerals is China. China is the number #1 competitor for anyone entering this industry, they are also going to be your vendor. looking at this situation, I would invest in rare earth mineral exploration and give out grants etc to researchers at universities(or whatevs) until something cost effective on THIS side of the pond is developed.

also, you guys talking shit about not wanting to go down to China's level of regulations, well then we'll never compete. They'll eventually sweep us under the rug until we're just a memory. We don't have to destroy our environment, but we kill ourselves with over regulation. We as a country cannot compete with China's central planning by trying to compete through central planning when our country wasn't designed for central planning. The more open we make things the easier it will be to compete with China. That means removing the minimum wage, really revising our environmental regulations, seriously regulating our banking industry and enforcing our basic rights. numerous other things as well. just a jist.

 

[RbSX]

America, fuck yeah.

 

[JS80]

How are we going to to buy the Chinese solar panels when all jobs in the US have been outsourced?

Um they send us back the money and earn no interest. They are our slaves.

On credit, of course.

We're intentionally becoming the asshole relative who produces nothing, just mooches off his working relatives.

Who's the sucker?

 

[ProfJohn]

My point was that the money was largely spent on physical plant, not burned away exclusively on marketing as was so widely seen in the .com boom days (and as PJ, IMHO, was implying).

I didn't imply anything.

Was not really sure where the money went, did not know it went to build the plant.

Still a waste of money. Built this great plant and still can't make the business work?


Meanwhile in South Carolina.... Boeing built a plant and can make it work, but the government won't let them....

 

[Darwin333]

Their business plan was obviously bad. They relied on their competition to supply them with rare earth minerals, lols.

WTF are you talking about? Basically everyone in the world has been relying on China for rare earth minerals and that had very little to do with their "business plan".

Their business plan did not account for solar becoming vastly cheaper than even the best experts expectations. Plain and simple.

 

[Infohawk]

also, you guys talking shit about not wanting to go down to China's level of regulations, well then we'll never compete. They'll eventually sweep us under the rug until we're just a memory. We don't have to destroy our environment, but we kill ourselves with over regulation. We as a country cannot compete with China's central planning by trying to compete through central planning when our country wasn't designed for central planning. The more open we make things the easier it will be to compete with China. That means removing the minimum wage, really revising our environmental regulations, seriously regulating our banking industry and enforcing our basic rights. numerous other things as well. just a jist.

In other words, let's compete with China by becoming a third world country. No thanks.

 

[Darwin333]

Uh... it was pretty obvious. rare earth minerals are expensive. the largest exporter of said rare earth minerals is China. China is the number #1 competitor for anyone entering this industry, they are also going to be your vendor. looking at this situation, I would invest in rare earth mineral exploration and give out grants etc to researchers at universities(or whatevs) until something cost effective on THIS side of the pond is developed.

also, you guys talking shit about not wanting to go down to China's level of regulations, well then we'll never compete. They'll eventually sweep us under the rug until we're just a memory. We don't have to destroy our environment, but we kill ourselves with over regulation. We as a country cannot compete with China's central planning by trying to compete through central planning when our country wasn't designed for central planning. The more open we make things the easier it will be to compete with China. That means removing the minimum wage, really revising our environmental regulations, seriously regulating our banking industry and enforcing our basic rights. numerous other things as well. just a jist.

You have no idea what you are talking about do you?

Google "china solar pollution"

Google "uses for rare earth elements"

Google "hourly wage for Chinese factory worker"


Are you actually serious or is my sarcasm meter broken? Hell I am consider a "right-winger" by a lot of folk here but what you just said is absurd and flat out retarded. Frankly I do not look forward to the day that my neighborhood looks like the "neighborhood" your average Chinese worker lives in. I like running water, indoor plumbing, air conditioning and 24 hour electricity, you know the little things in life....

 

[ProfJohn]

Well... the company spent $550,000 on lobbyists last year and $350,000 this year...

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000056880&year=2010

And the House Energy & Commerce committee has launched an investigation. Looks like there was some questionable decisions made during this whole thing. Since this was one of the first stimulus project's spending programs that might have rushed the original decision in order to make appear that they were taking action.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=8890

 

[bfdd]

In other words, let's compete with China by becoming a third world country. No thanks.

lols, i fail to see how laxing up on some environmental regulation is going to drive us into the third world. i fail to see how getting rid of minimum wage would cause that either. i also fail to realize how really regulating our banks would do so. i fail to see how opening our markets up would do so, i fail to see how revising our tax code would do so, all i see if people bitching about China making things, then more bitching about what we could do to make more things. WE PRICED OURSELVES OUT OF COMPETITIVENESS. if you want to be competitive again THINGS HAVE TO COST LESS AND PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE LESS.

not to mention we're totally fucking ripped off in our goddamn country. you can buy things made in california cheaper in South Korea than you can here. you can buy heineken for 50 US cents in Veitnam, but they won't sell it for less than 2 dollars a bottle here.

so yeah, you guys keep pushing what you have been, keep the status quo, nothing's fucked lols idiots.

 

[CPA]

As for burning through $535 million, there is a $733 million manufacturing plant in Fremont, Ca., to show for the money.

In that case, let's just build multi-million dollar manufacturing facilities.

 

[DrPizza]

rare earth metals aren't really that rare - they can be found all over the world. What happened is China subsidized the rare earth mines - no one could compete in the global marketplace against their prices - so everyone imports their rare earth metals from China.

Now, China is subsidizing their solar panel companies - they can undercut everyone else. The majority of major manufacturers are in China now. Pretty soon, everyone will rely on China for their solar panels. And, unless you have a better freaking idea for power generation, solar and wind are two of the huge players in the future.

 

[Infohawk]

lols, i fail to see how laxing up on some environmental regulation is going to drive us into the third world. i fail to see how getting rid of minimum wage would cause that either. i also fail to realize how really regulating our banks would do so. i fail to see how opening our markets up would do so, i fail to see how revising our tax code would do so, all i see if people bitching about China making things, then more bitching about what we could do to make more things. WE PRICED OURSELVES OUT OF COMPETITIVENESS. if you want to be competitive again THINGS HAVE TO COST LESS AND PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE LESS.

not to mention we're totally fucking ripped off in our goddamn country. you can buy things made in california cheaper in South Korea than you can here. you can buy heineken for 50 US cents in Veitnam, but they won't sell it for less than 2 dollars a bottle here.

so yeah, you guys keep pushing what you have been, keep the status quo, nothing's fucked lols idiots.

What do you think a third world country means? Have you ever been to one? Low wages, unsafe working conditions, polluted and dirty living conditions. That's what it's like to be in a third world country. That's what we need to do if we want to produce things cheaper than in China. So do you want to be the worker making a dollar an hour, destroying your health, and coming home to a shithole shack?

And I'm the last one to argue for the status quo. We need new ideas. Not the dumb invest in solar panel Democratic ideas and not the dumb, let's out-third-world the third-world Republican ideas.