So the US spies on their allies...

[Nintendesert]

Might want to loosen that tin foil hat there...

The USA would NEVER massacre its citizens!!

http://www.history.com/topics/wounded-knee

Just absolutely never.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

 

[JTsyo]

USA is basically a prison colony compared to rest of the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoner_population_rate_world_2012_map.png

You do realize there's a difference between criminal imprisonment and political prisoners, right?

 

[fskimospy]

The USA would NEVER massacre its citizens!!

http://www.history.com/topics/wounded-knee

The Indians at Wounded Knee were not American citizens. (Native Americans were given full citizenship in 1924) This doesn't make Wounded Knee okay, but this example makes no sense.

Just absolutely never.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

There is no evidence that the shootings at Kent State were directed by higher government authorities. This again doesn't even remotely excuse what happened, but when you're comparing it to what happened in Egypt recently with government aligned militia being specifically sent to attack protesters it's just not the same thing.

The US government has conducted all sorts of shameful actions against its citizens over the years, things that we should rightly condemn. Sill, the two lunatics here trying to compare the US to North Korea are simply nuts.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

GB has got to stop being the US sock puppet too. Seems that there's a bit of quisling going on.

It's improved with Cameron, with Blair we were pretty much just jumping as the master called.

We also have had some of our own spying revealed so... we're gonna lay low for a while.

You're right though, we really need to break the circle.

 

[BoberFett]

There is no evidence that the shootings at Kent State were directed by higher government authorities. This again doesn't even remotely excuse what happened, but when you're comparing it to what happened in Egypt recently with government aligned militia being specifically sent to attack protesters it's just not the same thing.

The US government has conducted all sorts of shameful actions against its citizens over the years, things that we should rightly condemn. Sill, the two lunatics here trying to compare the US to North Korea are simply nuts.

It's not required that one pull the trigger to be charged with murder. Setting a chain of events in motion can be sufficient. Sending armed soldiers to lock down a campus meant that higher government authorities ARE responsible for the shootings.

I'm not surprised at your response however, big government bootlicker that you are.

 

[fskimospy]

It's not required that one pull the trigger to be charged with murder. Setting a chain of events in motion can be sufficient. Sending armed soldiers to lock down a campus meant that higher government authorities ARE responsible for the shootings.

That's simply factually false. There is no plausible legal theory under which sending troops to a base would result in legal responsibility for their murdering someone unless you gave them orders that you knew would directly lead to such an act or be extremely likely to do so. I am aware of no evidence that this is the case.

If you believe this to be the case, please supply the statute and/or appropriate court precedent.

I'm not surprised at your response however, big government bootlicker that you are.

I'm not surprised at your response either. Your MO is basically to run in and hysterically shriek poorly informed insults at people. I just want you to be happy, friend Boberfett. How can I help you get out of this dark place?

 

[Nintendesert]

The Indians at Wounded Knee were not American citizens. (Native Americans were given full citizenship in 1924) This doesn't make Wounded Knee okay, but this example makes no sense.



There is no evidence that the shootings at Kent State were directed by higher government authorities. This again doesn't even remotely excuse what happened, but when you're comparing it to what happened in Egypt recently with government aligned militia being specifically sent to attack protesters it's just not the same thing.

The US government has conducted all sorts of shameful actions against its citizens over the years, things that we should rightly condemn. Sill, the two lunatics here trying to compare the US to North Korea are simply nuts.

I'm a little surprised at how much you defend this abuse, at some point an (R) gets back into the White House and controls all of this.

Regardless of whether the Native Americans had citizenship, the United States had dominion over them and had a responsibility to threat them civil. The United States had a long history of doing the exact opposite.

So we skip them, ok fine. Then we get to the concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans. Or shall we quibble about the white washing of history and call them internment camps?

What about the Tuskegee experiments?

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/tuskegee/

Those went on for 40 years!!! Can we even name a nation that conducted medical experiments on its citizens for longer than the United States?

The experiment lasted four decades, until public health workers leaked the story to the media.

Yup. Snowden is the devil all right. Leakers are the heroes of the United States because this country has a long history of abusing its people and hiding it very well until someone says enough and leaks it to the media.

I'm sure there were people even then defending these experiments as needed just as you defend the government on this issue. You really should reevaluate which side of history you keep siding with.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm a little surprised at how much you defend this abuse, at some point an (R) gets back into the White House and controls all of this.

I have not defended the NSA's actions with respect to American citizens at all. In case you haven't noticed I have repeatedly and explicitly condemned it. I will defend the US's actions in regard to other countries however, as we should absolutely be spying on all of them at all times.

Regardless of whether the Native Americans had citizenship, the United States had dominion over them and had a responsibility to threat them civil. The United States had a long history of doing the exact opposite.

We definitely didn't have such a responsibility.

So we skip them, ok fine. Then we get to the concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans. Or shall we quibble about the white washing of history and call them internment camps?

What about the Tuskegee experiments?

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/tuskegee/

Those went on for 40 years!!! Can we even name a nation that conducted medical experiments on its citizens for longer than the United States?

Yes, as I already mentioned the US government has done plenty of bad things over the years. It's hard for me to figure how the Tuskegee experiments relates to political oppression however.

Yup. Snowden is the devil all right. Leakers are the heroes of the United States because this country has a long history of abusing its people and hiding it very well until someone says enough and leaks it to the media.

I'm sure there were people even then defending these experiments as needed just as you defend the government on this issue. You really should reevaluate which side of history you keep siding with.

You don't appear to understand the difference between actions that the US undertakes on its citizens such as the NSA spying, in which I support what Snowden did, and actions the US undertakes against other countries, the leaks of which I emphatically oppose. Like Bradley Manning, he seems to have a poor idea of what is important.

 

[BoberFett]

That's simply factually false. There is no plausible legal theory under which sending troops to a base would result in legal responsibility for their murdering someone unless you gave them orders that you knew would directly lead to such an act or be extremely likely to do so. I am aware of no evidence that this is the case.

If you believe this to be the case, please supply the statute and/or appropriate court precedent.

I'm talking about logic and common sense, neither of which have anything to do with the law.

Besides, laws are for little people. If a little person lies and that lie results in someone's death, they can be tried for murder. If the rich and powerful lie and that lie leads to millions of deaths, they have history channel specials dedicated to them.

I'm not surprised at your response either. Your MO is basically to run in and hysterically shriek poorly informed insults at people.

It's amusing that you try to characterize my insults as shrieking and poorly formed. As they are clearly neither, I can only assume that my insults about you are true and you're attempting to deflect.

I just want you to be happy, friend Boberfett. How can I help you get out of this dark place?

For starters, you could stop shrieking.

 

[woolfe9998]

I'm talking about logic and common sense, neither of which have anything to do with the law.

You said:

It's not required that one pull the trigger to be charged with murder.

Sounded like a statement about the law to me.

Goalpost shift much?

 

[fskimospy]

I'm talking about logic and common sense, neither of which have anything to do with the law.

Besides, laws are for little people. If a little person lies and that lie results in someone's death, they can be tried for murder. If the rich and powerful lie and that lie leads to millions of deaths, they have history channel specials dedicated to them.

Oh, we're talking about the standard of evidence that Boberfett makes up. That's great.

It's amusing that you try to characterize my insults as shrieking and poorly formed. As they are clearly neither, I can only assume that my insults about you are true and you're attempting to deflect.

Yes, using the Boberfett Standard For What Counts as Murder is not at all poorly formed.

For starters, you could stop shrieking.

I will certainly keep this in mind!

 

[BoberFett]

You said:



Sounded like a statement about the law to me.

Goalpost shift much?

It's called a comparison, maybe you've heard of it.

Under the law, one need not pull the trigger to be culpable for murder. If someone commits an act that they have reasonable knowledge will lead to a death, they are considered responsible.

eskimospy said that nobody government is responsible for the Kent State shootings, because they didn't order the soldiers to fire. I merely pointed out that a direct order isn't required to be responsible. Again, speaking about common sense, not the law.

People like eskimospy and their lawyering are a major problem in this country today. It's not about doing what's right, it's about doing what's legal, and the rich and powerful will always twist the law to suit their intentions.

 

[CanOWorms]

I'm pissed. I'm pissed that the US is only spying against these Europeans. The CIA should also be involved in active assassination plots against various European leaders and figures.

European countries are not allies of the US. Let's get to war.

I find it despicable so many Americans are against spying against European countries. Sadly, this is the state of this country, with so many unassimilated who have loyalties with European countries rather than America. Europe must be destroyed and subjugated to save America.

 

[Darwin333]

I read today about the extent of the US surveillance program in Europe, especially Germany. 500 million connections (telephone&mails) per month. For comparison: In France it's only 2 million connections/month. The article also said, the UK is exempt from the surveillance (amongst other Commonwealth nations).

Politicians over here are already thinking about calling off the new free trade zone between the US and the EU. The agreements regarding the transfer of flight passenger and bank data are also in jeopardy. Formerly secret documents state that Germany is a "third level partner" but also a "target".

Personally as a German, I find this despicable. I would support any action that makes crystal clear the US cannot do this with us. Yes, the US saved us 60 years ago, but enough is enough. One cannot hold this over our head forever and justify any actions with this.

They are spying on us too bud. Yeah, it sucks.

 

[kreactor]

of course germany is a threat, with its education/industrial complex that actually sustain a tangible gdp/social planning.....better keep a close watch on merkel for any twitches that she remotely consider the closing of any u.s. military bases

next up on the snowden expose, surprising surveillance revelations on s. korea and japan as ancillary frenemies

 

[IGBT]

£963 842 485 just to help them reduce CO2 emissions.

Did i make your head explode?

ah the eco-KOOK carbon-CON hoax. Good place to piss borrowed Chinese money away.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Personally as a German, I find this despicable. I would support any action that makes crystal clear the US cannot do this with us. Yes, the US saved us 60 years ago, but enough is enough. One cannot hold this over our head forever and justify any actions with this.

As a US citizen I am outraged the govt is spying on us without any probable cause that we are terrorists.

And I am embarrassed that we are spying on you who are regular EU citizens. Just because it may not be illegal by our laws to spy on regular EU citizens doesn't mean we should be doing it. Our spying programs should focused only on those legitimately suspected of terrorism.

When I heard about these programs I expected you people in the EU to be angry, and I think your anger is justified.

Now govts spying on each other? That's an entirely different matter.

Fern

 

[palehorse]

Water is wet.

News at 11...

 

[palehorse]

THe US is losing its influence in the world and that is something that we all need to address.

Actually, let me expand that. It's the western world in general. The "west" has become soft and complacent and full of people lacking testicular fortitude. This is not just its leaders, but its citizens Hell, I include myself in this. What the hell happened???

A combination of pervasive progressive ideologies, absurd and exaggerated political correctness, materialism, interventionist foreign policies, and an under-educated general population that is much more interested in the Kardashians than geopolitics.

That's what happened.

PS: whackjob lunatics like zanejohnson also happened.