so, is it too early to pass sentence on dubya Bush yet?

[Helpless]

>The gas prices are global and no one western country can cause the rise, only the opec states can.<


I'll save the Econ.101 lecture, but let's just assume the U.S. reduced its consumption from ~17 million barrels a day to zero....holding all else constant, what should the price do? Conversely, let's assume the U.S. went from consuming zero barrels a day to, say, 17 million...again, holding all else constant, what happens to the price?

 

[Czar]

<< I'll save the Econ.101 lecture, but let's just assume the U.S. reduced its consumption from ~17 million barrels a day to zero....holding all else constant, what should the price do? Conversely, let's assume the U.S. went from consuming zero barrels a day to, say, 17 million...again, holding all else constant, what happens to the price? >>



Same goes with any other country. Its just that US is not any more special than any other country when it comes to Oil prices. Its just one of the big buyers, if they buy less it will change the price, if some other country buys less it will change the price.

 

[wyvrn]

<< AND it is the Public that elected Bush >>



Actually the public elected Gore. But the electorate system allowed Bush to become president. Though Gore had more overall votes, Bush won the election. Great system eh?

 

[Helpless]

>Same goes with any other country. Its just that US is not any more special than any other country when it comes to Oil prices<


First you said no one conutry can affect prices, now you say any country can...you can't have your oil and consume it, too.

Moreover, the Vatican City, the smallest &quot;country&quot; in the world, can't affect prices like the U.S., so I would argue that yes, the U.S. &quot;is more special when it comes to oil prices.&quot;

 

[Helpless]

Actually the public elected Gore. But the electorate system allowed Bush to become president. Though Gore had more overall votes, Bush won the election. Great system eh?



....and Bush votes represented more than 80% of the landmass in the United States. That aside, you should read the Federalist Papers and Hamilton's explanation as to why there is a need for the electoral college...&quot;Prostitution of votes,&quot; which reminds me of the Gore Camp handing out smokes to the homeless.


[edit] And yes, it is a great system...love it or leave it.

 

[Czar]

True, didnt think it quite through to get my point out


<< Moreover, the Vatican City, the smallest &quot;country&quot; in the world, can't affect prices like the U.S., so I would argue that yes, the U.S. &quot;is more special when it comes to oil prices.&quot; >>


That is like saying a sheep is the strongest animal in the world because it can kill an ant.

 

[BlockSender]

Okay, first of all Czar, your right. Mr Bush himself did not go over to israel and cast the first stone, nor did he poke a catholic in the eye in northern ireland and gas prices ARE determined by OPEC.
But if you don't think that the US has any business in ANY of these affairs your looking in the wrong direction for a leader.

The Clinton administration had a great hand in atleast securing peace talks with northern ireland. Infact it had reached an unprecedented lull in activity. I don't think Clinton did very much except appoint a dillgent correspondant who DID work to sort out their problems. Same with the Mid East. I would replay all the peace talks and coverage of arbitrations for you that Clinton had with these rulers if you have a couple of weeks to spare.
And if you don't think the LARGEST consumer of crude oil in the world (United States just incase you didn't know) has nothing to say about opec prices, you've got another thing coming.

Tominator, just for future reference,

<< Zogby was more accurate and showed better balance during the last several years >>

, was more accurate at WHAT? and showed better balance at WHAT?

Just for future reference, however, I am bowing out of this pointless battle. Curse you tweaker! I can't argue politics with people who make baseless claims. But thank you to tominator atleast for posting Zogby's, albeit I don't agree with their polls because of their small survey numbers. C'est la vie.
Good day everyone.
I'll still be reading but I'm not responding anymore. Perhaps someone would care to point out and PROVE some good things Bush has pushed for/advocated. Maybe all I need is a little confidence even if I don't agree with the majority of his policies. Change my mind damn it.

 

[MrBond]

A couple of things are bothering me about this.

People blamed Bush for the state of the country when Clinton took office. Then, when Bush Jr. took office, they blamed him for the state of the country. Why didn't clinton get blamed? I mean, it'd just be following the pattern...

Where is this massive movement to get the electoral college system changed? Or removed? Bush supporters said if they won the popular vote, but gore got the electorials, they'd want it changed. Do Gore supporters want the same thing? They act like they dont even care. I mean, there are enough people to get gore the popular vote, surely they could get the electorial college system changed.

Its no wonder presidents age at like 2x the normal rate while in office. With half the country hating you, you must be under some mad stress...

 

[Capn]

MrBond you don't remember Hillary pandering to the cameras saying she'd get the electoral system changed a few months back?

Truth is, nobody really cares and I doubt you could get enough states to ratify the ammendment.

 

[Helpless]

Okay, first of all Czar, your right. Mr Bush himself did not go over to israel and cast the first stone, nor did he poke a catholic in the eye in northern ireland and gas prices ARE determined by OPEC.


Okay, first of all, Blocksender, YOU'RE wrong...OPEC doesn't set GAS prices.

~35% of the price of gas consist of crude oil prices...~25% is tax...~30% is the cost of refining...~5% is the cost of bring the product to market (marketing, transportation, distribution costs, etc), and the remainder is the markup for the gas station.


You may think the price of gas is based solely on the price of crude oil, but there are actually many factors that determine price...refineries at full capacity, increased demand, etc, etc.

 

[busmaster11]

I agree with Blocksender.

Personally I think Bush has nothing on his agenda but saving some rich white Americans some tax dollars. Everything from his arrogance at the UN human rights committe, to his subsidies for folks to send their kids to private schools in bad neighborhoods (well, you can't send everyone there, what about everyone else?) to the Kyoto conference refusal... How can we be the most prosperous nation on Earth and still refuse to take the lead on the environmental crisis? Who will then? Not to mention the missile defense system...

Bush sucks ass. He's not my prez as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Helpless]

I like how people like you use the word &quot;rich&quot; like it is a bad word You, too, should read Atlas Shrugged....without rich people, you would be poor (think about that one while you read your N.Y. Times)

 

[BlockSender]

Helpless you are so right. Infact my statement was in error. Fore I did not mean to say &quot;GAS&quot; prices but &quot;CRUDE OIL&quot; prices. I do understand that gas prices very greatly nationwide.

I also know I said I was not going to post anymore, but the forum would not allow me to post a private message to you. Anyway.
Thanks for the correction.

 

[Helpless]

I knew you would come out of the closet, sir... Welcome back!

 

[busmaster11]

Helpless, I don't have a problem with rich people. I hope to be one myself someday.

 

[Helpless]

...And technically, you can not unambiguously assert that OPEC controls crude oil prices. For the sake of brevity, let?s just say they play a part in it through their controls of production and ?targeted prices.?

 

[Urinal Mint]

<< I agree with Blocksender.

Personally I think Bush has nothing on his agenda but saving some rich white Americans some tax dollars. Everything from his arrogance at the UN human rights committe, to his subsidies for folks to send their kids to private schools in bad neighborhoods (well, you can't send everyone there, what about everyone else?) to the Kyoto conference refusal... How can we be the most prosperous nation on Earth and still refuse to take the lead on the environmental crisis? Who will then? Not to mention the missile defense system...

Bush sucks ass. He's not my prez as far as I'm concerned. >>


One thing I'm sick of seeing is people whining about this Kyoto Treaty. There was a thread a few weeks back explaining this treaty, and why it is a poor idea to ratify it. In fact, this week (or last maybe) Japan also refuse to ratify this treaty. Why? Well, if you read the treaty it clearly states that India and China don't have to follow any pollution standards whatsoever. C'mon now, we're talking about the 2 most populated countries on Earth, both of which are going through their equivalent of the Industrial Revolution, and you're going to let them fill the air with billowing black smoke and toxins while everyone else has to play nice? What a joke! 40% of the population, existing in 2 nations, can sh|t and piss in the water, so to speak, but the other 60% is responsible for cleaning it up. How fair is that?

I'm all for environmental control, but jesus, everyone should have to play by the rules.

 

[busmaster11]

<< C'mon now, we're talking about the 2 most populated countries on Earth, both of which are going through their equivalent of the Industrial Revolution, and you're going to let them fill the air with billowing black smoke and toxins while everyone else has to play nice? >>



You mean like we did 100 years ago?

Urninal Mint: So you're saying that the US shouldn't take the lead, and if everyone steps back from it that the US shouldn't try to hammer out a new compromise. China and India, being developing countries haven't the economies to work with as the US does. Geez, we have a role to play.

Your apathy and lack of consideration is what sucks about this country these days. We're just too arrogant, and think we're too proud, patriotic and special, that everyone else in the world are second class citizens.

 

[WordSmith2000]

<< Now, however, ever since the &quot;Gipper,&quot; it appears Americans judge, and grade, presidents by the size of their pocketbooks...the economy seemed to explain ~ 80% of the variance in approval ratings (R^2=.8 for you statistical geeks) With this in mind, given the downturn of the economy during the latter part of the Clinton administration, the trends in Bush's approval ratings seem quite the norm. >>



I am making 50% more now than I was a year ago, and I still think GWB is an idiot. This is one liberal who takes it upon himself to make as much money as he can without acting like a victim, or blaming the government for stealing a part of his wages. Taxes and government regulation a necessary evil in this country; the president cannot stop me or help me when it comes to earning a living.



<< There was no Energy Crisis in California or anywhere else for that matter THANKS to President Bush and Desert Storm. In fact after the gulf war gas prices went to a historic low. Not a thing to do with Clinton or his policies.

Clinton bragged how he had beat the 'Business Cycle.'

The Mid-East is on he brink of war as we speak and are closer than ever....but if you choose to ignore the details...

Several Democrats changed parties...all resigned and most were elected as Republicans...

Zogby was more accurate and showed better balance during the last several years. That is why they have such prominence today. >>



Tominator: since you have already admitted you are a liar by your posts (Bush?s approval rating is higher than Clinton?s ever was?well, maybe it wasn?t), why should anyone even read what you have to say? Oh I forgot?there is the truth, and there is the truth as told by Republicans.

 

[Helpless]

>the president cannot stop me or help me when it comes to earning a living.<

Sure he can, sir...what do you do for a living and I'll throw an anology your way

 

[Urinal Mint]

Now we have the pot calling the kettle black.


<< Your apathy and lack of consideration is what sucks about this country these days. We're just too arrogant, and think we're too proud, patriotic and special, that everyone else in the world are second class citizens. >>


Reference this statement that YOU made, and tell me that you're not apathetic and lacking consideration. If you'll recall, it was patriotism and pride in our nation that got us where we are today as a free democracy supporting a capitalistic economy. If you don't like the USA, get the hell out and go live in Pakistan, were you can enjoy some REAL freedom.


<< Bush sucks ass. He's not my prez as far as I'm concerned >>


You also must've just skipped over this statement I summed with:


<< I'm all for environmental control, but jesus, everyone should have to play by the rules. >>


See? It says I'm all for environmental standards, in plain f-ing English. I just want fairness, y'know? Who cares what we did 100 years ago... that's in the past. Do you think the Industrial Revolution, and the environmental damange it may have caused, is justification to let China and India run rampant and do it all over again? Are you that small-minded to believe that it's OK? Gimme a break... let's do it, and do it right.

 

[busmaster11]

I'm an American, but I don't like our president. He does not represent my views. Now your turn.

 

[Czar]

Since somehow we are talking about the Kyoto accord. ??

So basicly the US rejected the Kyoto accord because China and India was excluded, so the US does not want to give China and India the same chance we had 100 years ago, the US just basicly want to keep China and India below the US. This smells like fear.

You can take anything and revert it to what you think, some people belive that the Kyoto accord was made by Europeans to destroy the US, like where is the sense in that? still people belive it.

We humans are weird and we humans will end up destroying ourselves, may it be with weapons or destroying our habitat.

 

[busmaster11]

<< See? It says I'm all for environmental standards, in plain f-ing English. I just want fairness, y'know? Who cares what we did 100 years ago... that's in the past. Do you think the Industrial Revolution, and the environmental damange it may have caused, is justification to let China and India run rampant and do it all over again? Are you that small-minded to believe that it's OK? Gimme a break... let's do it, and do it right >>



I don't believe China and India should get off scottfree. I believe there should be a compromise. But I also believe the US is in a position where we are morally obligated, by our ecomonic fortunes, to broker or mediate or initiate whatever needs to be done. If no one wants toagree to Kyoto, fine. But we should NOT walk away.

 

[Urinal Mint]

<< I'm an American, but I don't like our president. He does not represent my views. Now your turn. >>


That's fine... you probably had your opportunity to choose who best represented your views, and that guy lost. That's called a Democracy. Regardless, whoever was chosen, while not necessarily being your favorite, represents you and the rest of the people in this nation, and it's your job to let it be known to that person what he can do to best represent you and people like you. Chosen of the people, by the people, for the people.