so, is it too early to pass sentence on dubya Bush yet?

[Helpless]

NICE, urinalmint! ...yea, that is what is wrong with our country---The people who claim "He's not my prez as far as I'm concerned." Even when the draft-dodging womanizer was running the Super-8 with my tax dollars, I still accepted him as my president, for he was, in fact, president....like or not.

 

[charrison]

If kyoto is such a good idea, why is no country adopting it?

 

[Urinal Mint]

I completely agree with you on this notion, and this was my argument in the first place. I just don't think the Kyoto Treaty is the right way to go about this... it can be done smarter.


<< I don't believe China and India should get off scottfree. I believe there should be a compromise. But I also believe the US is in a position where we are morally obligated, by our ecomonic fortunes, to broker or mediate or initiate whatever needs to be done. If no one wants toagree to Kyoto, fine. But we should NOT walk away. >>

 

[Elledan]

<< NICE, urinalmint! ...yea, that is what is wrong with our country---The people who claim &quot;He's not my prez as far as I'm concerned.&quot; Even when the draft-dodging womanizer was running the Super-8 with my tax dollars, I still accepted him as my president, for he was, in fact, president....like or not. >>

Only rich, influential people can become a president. Democracy, eh?

 

[dew042]

<< We had eight years of scandal in which nothing was done of note. >>



8 years of incrediable economic growth and 8 years of excellent foriegn relations is nothing of note?

and before that, let's see.... we had 4 years of war and recession. hmm.

bush's myoptic view of the world is dangerous. the world community doesn't respect him. and he turns his back on world struggles we should be very aware of and actively helping with. he has cut off no. korea just when we could have leveraged our power to change them. korea is too immoral to deal with, but china or egypt or israel or ..insert your favorite human rights abusing country here.. are okay???? we have stepped back and let the palestinian issue brew into a full out conflict and we continue to piss off everyone with our constant claims about a missle shield. not to mention the ridiculiousness of the cuban embargo (not directly bush, but hell, let's throw it into the mix.) lets withdraw and protect ourselves and let the rest of the world fester until it blows up and we can't ignore it anymore that's enlightened thinking there.

it won't be nearly as easy to ignore when our young men and women of the armed forces are coming home in body bags.

we live in golden era, yeah, sure.

i think bush is self-centered and out of touch with real ppl's concerns.

 

[Czar]

<< If kyoto is such a good idea, why is no country adopting it? >>


Because its a joint project with many countries, all countries sign it when they have come to an agreement. Many countries have their own accords which go even further than the Kyoto one.

 

[busmaster11]

Helpless: The draft-dodging womanizer you accepted as prez was actually ELECTED. But thats beside the point.



<< That's fine... you probably had your opportunity to choose who best represented your views, and that guy lost. That's called a Democracy. Regardless, whoever was chosen, while not necessarily being your favorite, represents you and the rest of the people in this nation, and it's your job to let it be known to that person what he can do to best represent you and people like you. Chosen of the people, by the people, for the people.
>>



Well said, Urinal. The system is the one and only reason I have faith in this nation's abilities.

 

[dew042]

<< ...AND it is the Public that elected Bush. >>



no.... it was the electoral college that elected bush. the people elected al gore. al gore won the popular vote.

dew.

 

[Urinal Mint]

<< 8 years of incrediable economic growth and 8 years of excellent foriegn relations is nothing of note? >>


I'd like to point out that Bush was dealing with a recession caused by the Reagan administration's drastic military spending, as well as a couple of oil crises sprinkled in the mid-late 80s.

Additionally, Clinton (not to his discredit) reaped the benefits of a booming economy. While his administration probably did have a good track record so far as foreign relations are concerned, any economic boom that our nation experienced during his 8-year tenure was simply good timing for him. Our economy was turned around well before then, probably immediately after the Gulf War ended, and Clinton simply had to ride the wave through the New Economy of the internet. Likewise, GW is starting to be blamed for problems that started 2-3 years ago when confidence in the New Economy became bloated and, as a result, you see the dotcom busts now. Just stop and think that today's leaders might actually have been saddled with problems caused by their predecessors.

 

[Helpless]

>>8 years of incrediable economic growth and 8 years of excellent foriegn relations is nothing of note?

and before that, let's see.... we had 4 years of war and recession. hmm.


Wow, not this debate again...two words: Alan Greenspan. Two more: Internet stocks. Two more: Wealth Effect. Two More: Lagged Variables.


...4 years of war? I was in the Gulf for 12-months; did I miss something?

 

[Capn]

The PEOPLE set up the process by which we elect our president, that is currently the electoral system.

 

[UpGrD]

Wow! 6 months into a 4 year term (maybe 8). And we are already digging GW's grave. Fact is that the liberals consider there agenda above all and anything that they have to do or say is OK, because
there plan is for the greater good. That is why there was very little said by the left about Clinton during his despicable term. As long as he pushed the lefts agenda, BJ's in the oval office by an 22 year old
employee was OK.
On the flip side conservatives are quick to say when they are not pleased with GW. It is a matter of principal to many of us that we be consistent. I did not like Clinton and believe that he harmed the office.
So far GW is not a standout as Pres., but it is way to early to be saying the things about him that has been said in the thread.
Time will tell. If he is a good president at the end of the day we are all better off, no matter our political beliefs. Give him some time to show us.

 

[busmaster11]

<< bush's myoptic view of the world is dangerous. the world community doesn't respect him. and he turns his back on world struggles we should be very aware of and actively helping with. >>



Thats exactly what I'm concerned about. He may be a perfect governor of the rich and conservative state of Texas, but to lead the most prosperous country in the world... I just hope we make it through the next three and a half without getting nuked by someone.

 

[dew042]

<< ...4 years of war? I was in the Gulf for 12-months; did I miss something? >>



ooh... you're right. Bush's reign was very peaceful and we withdrew all of our troops and it ended happily....

and on another note: we probably wouldn't have had a probelm like war in the mid-east if reagan had managed to not fund both iraq and iran. iraq at the time of the gulf war had the third largeest army in the world. who do you think funded that one? whose fault is that one? hmm.

dew.

 

[Urinal Mint]

<< Thats exactly what I'm concerned about. He may be a perfect governor of the rich and conservative state of Texas, but to lead the most prosperous country in the world... I just hope we make it through the next three and a half without getting nuked by someone. >>


Of note, the office of Governor in the state of Texas is merely one of an agenda setter and mainly that of a figurehead for the government. The Lieutenant Governor of this state is the one who does all the real work... GW was more or less there to act as the voice of Texas government. Not to his disservice, but that's really all our governor does.

 

[Urinal Mint]

By the way, nobody wants to start a nuclear war... I think everyone realizes that they'd be wiped off the planet if they tried.

 

[Helpless]

>>He may be a perfect governor of the rich and conservative state of Texas, but to lead the most prosperous country in the world...<<


Oh, yet a guy who governs a much smaller state like, say, Arkansas, which is loaded with chicken farmers, is much more qualified? ...and there's that word &quot;rich&quot; again...

 

[Urinal Mint]

<< and on another note: we probably wouldn't have had a probelm like war in the mid-east if reagan had managed to not fund both iraq and iran. iraq at the time of the gulf war had the third largeest army in the world. who do you think funded that one? whose fault is that one? hmm. >>


Considering the droves of Iraqi soldiers surrendering during the war, I doubt we funded them. These soldiers were throwing their hands up because they wanted to EAT and have a DRINK OF WATER. Does that sound like a well-funded military to you?

I'm not denying that the Reagan administration didn't float them a few bucks, but be realistic here and look at a little recent history before you try to discredit someone.

 

[Helpless]

>>iraq at the time of the gulf war had the third largeest army in the world.<<


Show me your source, sir. You make this stuff up as you go along, or did you read it on the DNC's homepage?

 

[busmaster11]

Helpless, My point was that Bush doesn't have a clue when it comes to global issues, and personally I don't think he cares if it doesn't affect the US directly. Clinton was actually savvy about it.

Whether it had something to do with chickens in his home state or not, I'll concede that one.

 

[dew042]

<< Wow! 6 months into a 4 year term (maybe 8). And we are already digging GW's grave. Fact is that the liberals consider there agenda above all and anything that they have to do or say is OK, because there plan is for the greater good. >>



don't call me a liberal because i am far-from. i just get sick of conservative's thumbing there noses and claiming to know all the answers. heck, i'd rather work for the common good than the personal benefit. you start to realize how much you miss 'the common good' ethic when you move from minnesota to new orleans. come see our ghettos sometime, they rock.




<< That is why there was very little said by the left about Clinton during his despicable term. As long as he pushed the lefts agenda, BJ's in the oval office by an 22 year old employee was OK. >>



but drunk driving and nose candy are MUCH more respectable. I don't rely much on morality anymore, cause it ain't going to happen... all i care is you get the job done and you aren't arrogant about it. bush is much more arrogant than clinton.



<< I did not like Clinton and believe that he harmed the office. >>



so what's new?




<< So far GW is not a standout as Pres., but it is way to early to be saying the things about him that has been said in the thread.
Time will tell. If he is a good president at the end of the day we are all better off, no matter our political beliefs. Give him some time to show us. >>



agreed. time will tell. i hope for the best. i do however disagree anyone calling him a standout at yet... he has a long way to go to prove himself. and fundementally i will continue to disagree with most of his politics.

dew.

 

[busmaster11]

And what about the word &quot;rich&quot;? Isn't that the invisible and rarely-acknowledged line that determines agendas between dems and repubs? And doesn't it have the *slightest* to do with Bush getting to DC?

 

[Czar]

<< So far GW is not a standout as Pres., but it is way to early to be saying the things about him that has been said in the thread.
Time will tell. If he is a good president at the end of the day we are all better off, no matter our political beliefs. Give him some time to show us. >>


Very well said and that is what we should do, well he will be there for the next 3 1/2 years so we might as well give him a chance.

 

[Helpless]

&quot;Helpless, My point was that Bush doesn't have a clue when it comes to global issues.&quot;


If you presuppose that Iraq has the world's 3rd largest army, then neither do....ah, forget it about you...you are right; everyone else is wrong. Bush sucks, like you said, and I no longer claim him as my president

 

[Urinal Mint]

I think it's an interesting point brought up about &quot;nose candy&quot; and &quot;bj's in the oral office.&quot;

It is becoming evident that no president we elect will be without faults in his past. Never, ever. Who here hasn't committed a mistake at some point, been guilty of poor judgment, or have done something dubious that most people would frown upon? I can't say that I haven't, and, likewise, I don't expect the leader of my nation to be perfect. It's naive to do so.

So far as arrogance, I'm not sure I detect that in GW. Maybe a little bit of swagger, but I think any man needs swagger in order to be a good leader.