So if you try to kill a cop in the name of Islam....it is not influenced by Islam

[werepossum]

By appease, you mean not round them up, make them register with a federal database, and not make them wear a crescent moon and star arm band?

The big bad Mooselman menace is comin' to get ya!

Hurry! Run! Hide! Shit the bed!

Conservatives: protecting 'Murrica from big bad boogiemens!

Us "proggies" don't feel the need to otherize 1.3 Billion people because we're not cowards.

So, congrats on that, I guess! Hurrah!

Also: microaggressions.

Oh, if only there were something in between "pretend they aren't Muslims" and "round them up, make them register with a federal database, and make them wear a crescent moon and star arm band".

Nah, that's just crazy talk.

 

[buckshot24]

Oh, if only there were something in between "pretend they aren't Muslims" and "round them up, make them register with a federal database, and make them wear a crescent moon and star arm band".

Nah, that's just crazy talk.

He seems a bit deranged so I'm not sure you're talking to the right person.

 

[nickqt]

Oh, if only there were something in between "pretend they aren't Muslims" and "round them up, make them register with a federal database, and make them wear a crescent moon and star arm band".

Nah, that's just crazy talk.

Yes, because there's a middle ground when demonizing an entire religion of 1.3 billion people. Go find it, and make sure you play your dog whistle very, very carefully when doing it.

He seems a bit deranged so I'm not sure you're talking to the right person.

You're a bigot. No one cares what you think, except other bigots, chief.

 

[brycejones]

He seems a bit deranged so I'm not sure you're talking to the right person.

Oh the ironing

 

[werepossum]

He seems a bit deranged so I'm not sure you're talking to the right person.

I disagree that he seems a bit deranged.

 

[nickqt]

I disagree that he seems a bit deranged.

No doubt. Demonizing 1.3 billion people is the opposite of deranged. If you're an authoritarian fascist enabler.

Keep on keepin' on.

 

[Blue_Max]

Yes, because there's a middle ground when demonizing an entire religion of 1.3 billion people.
You're a bigot. No one cares what you think, except other bigots, chief.

Gawd, this old tired rhetoric every. single. time.

I'll keep repeating, in the vain hopes it may one day sink in, that you can criticize the religio-political system of islam without demonizing every single muslim, just as criticism of modern feminism has nothing to do with hating women.

So this is either a blind ignorance due to ideological zealotry to your leftist agendas and causes; or a willful choice of deception in order to silence anyone who dares to step out of line.

So how many times do muslims have to do EXACTLY what the quran tells them to do, what their prophet did and told them to emulate, before you accept that very fact. Even if most never do, the commands are in their book and, as such, is "perfect" and beyond questioning.

Just like leftism these days.

oh... and two guys coincidentally named 'muhammed' just happened to shoot up a Calgary night club last night.

 

[nickqt]

Gawd, this old tired rhetoric every. single. time.

I'll keep repeating, in the vain hopes it may one day sink in, that you can criticize the religio-political system of islam without demonizing every single muslim, just as criticism of modern feminism has nothing to do with hating women.

So this is either a blind ignorance due to ideological zealotry to your leftist agendas and causes; or a willful choice of deception in order to silence anyone who dares to step out of line.

So how many times do muslims have to do EXACTLY what the quran tells them to do, what their prophet did and told them to emulate...Even if most never do, the commands are in their book and, as such, is "perfect" and beyond questioning.

Just like leftism these days.

oh... and two guys coincidentally named 'muhammed' just happened to shoot up a Calgary night club last night.

So, you aren't demonizing "every single muslim", you're just bringing attention to the fact that Islam is an inherently bad religion since "muslims have to do EXACTLY what the quran tells them to do, what their prophet did and told them to emulate, before you accept that very fact. Even if most never do, the commands are in their book and, as such" are terrorists because that is what their religion demands of them.

Also, I know your PC/Microaggression talking points have mad play now adays, what, with Strongman Trump dominating the right-wing authoritarian vote and all, but if you haven't noticed, you and your buddies can continue demonizing Islam as a religion without being sent to Texas Walmarts in an ongoing Jade Helm operation to silence all dissent to "leftism".

So, I'm not demonizing Islam because the vast majority of Muslims aren't attacking anyone, and I'm the zealot?

Nice projection, hoss.

 

[buckshot24]

No doubt. Demonizing 1.3 billion people is the opposite of deranged. If you're an authoritarian fascist enabler.

Keep on keepin' on.

Can we demonize their book? Thankfully lots of Muslims don't take those commands seriously. What is wrong with that?

 

[mikeymikec]

Can we demonize their book?

When you display sufficient awareness of the content of "your own book", then at least you're in a better-informed position to start throwing stones at other peoples' glass houses.

 

[nickqt]

Can we demonize their book?

Uh, y'all are already doing that when you say you aren't attacking individual Mooselmans, but Islam's teachings, books, etc. Right?

Thankfully lots of Muslims don't take those commands seriously. What is wrong with that?

It's a good damn thing that Christians aren't bashing uppity children against rocks, or stoning people who eat lobster and crab.

The difference, of course, is that this country had founders who understood that religion and state shouldn't be attached at the hip. Unlike our very benevolent country, countries in the middle east have had Islam attached to it as law, and also had groups who declared their version of the religion to be the truer form, with everyone else heretics for going along with the dictator (typically supported by the US or the USSR/Russia because of ye olde Cold War) in order to not have their families murdered.

So, should we take a snapshot of RIGHT NOW and then reason backwards that Islam is inherently bad, or should we perhaps realize that Islam hasn't had an enlightenment like Christian civilization, where religion is allowed to exist, but secular institutions that can describe observable reality are allowed to promulgate technology, law, and morals?

I guess the main difference between conservatives and liberals is that liberals (speaking for myself) believe that religion is a belief system that can exist alongside secular civilization without it being 100% truth. Note, by the way, that there are liberal Christians, and conservative Christians. It's the conservative Christians who will become upset if you claim that the US is secular, or that the Constitution sets up a "wall" between church and state, ad nauseam.

In other words, you can complain about PC/Microaggressions/WarOnChristmas™, yet I can tell you that I was told "Merry Christmas" about 200 times this past December, and yet my leftist liberal handlers never issued a memo to take the WarOnChristmas™ nuclear by getting upset by being told Merry Christmas, returning fire by aggressively saying..."Happy Holidays"... back to the people who told me Merry Christmas.

Perhaps the fact that I'm an agnostic means that I inherently view Christianity and Islam as two belief systems that claim SkyWizard™ cares about them more than someone else. But, it also means that while I stand up for Muslims/Islam as a minority belief system here in the US, I also don't call for the rounding up of Christians because they periodically kill people in Planned Parenthood clinics, or at Federal Buildings in midwestern states.

I guess, as a dirty America-hating libruul, I take the whole "first they came for the ..." statement to heart, bleeding as it will. I attempt to fit every single human into my "tribe" as possible, meaning that unless you're just a sociopathic piece of shit, I'll stand up for you.

Conservatives tend to exclude people, and of course the age-old myth of Dolchstoßlegende continues to exist, and you can find it in the posts of people here. Liberals "don't realize", at best, that Islam is coming for them. At worst, liberals are siding with the "others" to backstab America, because, well, because they hate America, as y'all said every other sentence from 2001-2009.

If you want to gloss over what I say, go for it. I know what I stand for, and it won't be torn down by people who want me to be scared of people who don't appear to be just like me whether in a mirror, or in a list of attributes that someone arbitrarily puts together.

If you're a piece of shit, then you're a piece of shit. Your race, gender, sex, religion, personal politics, or ice cream preference has little to nothing to do with whether you're a piece of shit. And no matter how much you try to claim that it does, it doesn't.

That's the difference between how you and I see the world.

May the best, and most accurate viewpoint, win. I know which world I think would be best, but that's just me.

 

[realibrad]

...Us "proggies" don't feel the need to otherize 1.3 Billion people because we're not cowards.

So, should we take a snapshot of RIGHT NOW and then reason backwards that Islam is inherently bad, or should we perhaps realize that Islam hasn't had an enlightenment like Christian civilization, where religion is allowed to exist, but secular institutions that can describe observable reality are allowed to promulgate technology, law, and morals?

2 things for me.

You seem to not want to "otherize" 1.3 billion people, but that group makes up the vast majority of terrorism in the world today. The only way you can dismiss that is to "otherize" and just focus on terrorism in the west and saying they make up a less than majority there. If you include the world, they are over 70% of all terrorist deaths, yet Islam does not make up 70% of the world. Islamic terrorism is also growing and expanding into new regions. It would seem logical to be concerned that Islamic terrorism makes up the majority of global terrorism and is also expanding.

2nd, why do you think Islam has not gone through a reformation yet? All other big religions have calmed down. Christians in the US seem to want to undo their reformation, but as of yet have not been able to do so because the west has been becoming less religious. That said, something has been different about Islam so far.

If you look at countries that are mainly made up of Muslims, you see a movement away from secular views and laws, and a move toward more strict rules. Even Turkey that had gone very secular has become very Islamic. I would not say that Islam is the only cause for this shift, but I do think it plays a big role.

Islam has some differences that I think play a role here. The faith is built on it being the perfect word of god. To change any of it would be grounds for death. Interpreting it differently and trying to spread a non-typical opinion on the texts can be grounds for death in many countries. Its hard to reform a belief when any non-violent shift can carry death or torture.

 

[buckshot24]

When you display sufficient awareness of the content of "your own book", then at least you're in a better-informed position to start throwing stones at other peoples' glass houses.

I am completely aware of what is in my own book. Even if I am a complete hypocrite this doesn't change the fact of what is in the Koran. However, there isn't a general command in the bible to kill anybody, period.

The fact of the matter is that there isn't any significant number of Jews or Christians going around killing unbelievers. Why? Because it just isn't in the book.

 

[1prophet]

If you look at countries that are mainly made up of Muslims, you see a movement away from secular views and laws, and a move toward more strict rules. Even Turkey that had gone very secular has become very Islamic. I would not say that Islam is the only cause for this shift, but I do think it plays a big role.

And right there is the problem and solution, it's a shame that so many who call themselves liberal love to frame the debate as christians/jews,conservatives vs.Islam,

when the problem is actually between Islam and the secular state and its ability or inability to coexist within that secular frame work like all other religions have to.

 

[MajinCry]

I am completely aware of what is in my own book. Even if I am a complete hypocrite this doesn't change the fact of what is in the Koran. However, there isn't a general command in the bible to kill anybody, period.

The fact of the matter is that there isn't any significant number of Jews or Christians going around killing unbelievers. Why? Because it just isn't in the book.

Actually, yeah, the Bible does command slaughter. As well as rape and sex slavery; we've been over that before.


There are a couple reasons that Christians don't do that, however.

1) Present day Christians are, by the vast majority, better than their religion.

2) Christians idolize Jesus; a man that didn't kill anybody, didn't slaughter any people, didn't rape, didn't torture, didn't enslave, didn't take sex slaves, didn't wage war, didn't encourage and implore sex slavery, etc.

Compare that to Mohamed, the Muslim's idol? He raped. A lot. He commanded and encouraged sex slavery. He slaughtered and implored slaughter, he tortured most certainly, his wars and battles often resulted with many women being taken as slaves, etc.

When Christians idolize Jesus, thinking him to be the ideal individual, it's no surprise that many of them are, at the very least, not rapacious nor bloodthirsty.

When Muslims idolize Mohamed, however? It's no fucking wonder that we have hordes of Muslims raping women left right and center in Europe.

It's no fucking wonder that Sweden's rape statistics have skyrocketed due to the influx of Muslims.

It's no fucking wonder that German women are suffering the same fate as those in Sweden.


Bah. I've digressed, but ya get my point. Christians at least have decent parts of their book to pick from, as well as a relatively moral figure to follow and imitate. Muslims, on the other hand? Oh. Oh dear.

 

[soulcougher73]

When you display sufficient awareness of the content of "your own book", then at least you're in a better-informed position to start throwing stones at other peoples' glass houses.

:thumbsup:

 

[buckshot24]

Actually, yeah, the Bible does command slaughter. As well as rape and sex slavery; we've been over that before.

It doesn't have a general command to kill anybody like the Koran. God told certain people to wipe out certain other people at a certain time. Whether

There are a couple reasons that Christians don't do that, however.

1) Present day Christians are, by the vast majority, better than their religion.

Since the bible doesn't tell Christians to kill anybody I don't see how that is the case.

2) Christians idolize Jesus; a man that didn't kill anybody, didn't slaughter any people, didn't rape, didn't torture, didn't enslave, didn't take sex slaves, didn't wage war, didn't encourage and implore sex slavery, etc.

Seems contradictory to point 1 but amen.

Compare that to Mohamed, the Muslim's idol? He raped. A lot. He commanded and encouraged sex slavery. He slaughtered and implored slaughter, he tortured most certainly, his wars and battles often resulted with many women being taken as slaves, etc.

He fondled a 6 year old girl he was betrothed to as well. He waited to have full sex with her until she was around 8 or 9 though, so he's got that going for him I guess.

 

[MajinCry]

It doesn't have a general command to kill anybody like the Koran. God told certain people to wipe out certain other people at a certain time. Whether

Since the bible doesn't tell Christians to kill anybody I don't see how that is the case.

We've been through this time and time again in that old religion thread. You never did provide chapter and verse to substantiate the argument that the commandments aren't binding.

Seems contradictory to point 1 but amen.

It isn't. What if Christians idolized Lot? Or Samson? Never mind that Jesus commanded slaves to obey their masters as if they were serving him, for example.

He fondled a 6 year old girl he was betrothed to as well. He waited to have full sex with her until she was around 8 or 9 though, so he's got that going for him I guess.

What a saint, eh? A champion for women's rights! A shining example of the finest shade of moral white!

Fucking hell, the guy's a monster. What's also sickening, is that when you bring up the evil done by the guy, you're the problem for bringing it up. A fine example is the treatment of Geert Wilders by the Dutch parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ4NeO7copo

 

[realibrad]

It doesn't have a general command to kill anybody like the Koran. God told certain people to wipe out certain other people at a certain time. Whether
Since the bible doesn't tell Christians to kill anybody I don't see how that is the case.
Seems contradictory to point 1 but amen.
He fondled a 6 year old girl he was betrothed to as well. He waited to have full sex with her until she was around 8 or 9 though, so he's got that going for him I guess.

I thought Deuteronomy 20 was the rules for war? Can anyone correct me on this?

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

 

[werepossum]

Actually, yeah, the Bible does command slaughter. As well as rape and sex slavery; we've been over that before.

There are a couple reasons that Christians don't do that, however.

1) Present day Christians are, by the vast majority, better than their religion.

2) Christians idolize Jesus; a man that didn't kill anybody, didn't slaughter any people, didn't rape, didn't torture, didn't enslave, didn't take sex slaves, didn't wage war, didn't encourage and implore sex slavery, etc.

Compare that to Mohamed, the Muslim's idol? He raped. A lot. He commanded and encouraged sex slavery. He slaughtered and implored slaughter, he tortured most certainly, his wars and battles often resulted with many women being taken as slaves, etc.

When Christians idolize Jesus, thinking him to be the ideal individual, it's no surprise that many of them are, at the very least, not rapacious nor bloodthirsty.

When Muslims idolize Mohamed, however? It's no fucking wonder that we have hordes of Muslims raping women left right and center in Europe.

It's no fucking wonder that Sweden's rape statistics have skyrocketed due to the influx of Muslims.

It's no fucking wonder that German women are suffering the same fate as those in Sweden.

Bah. I've digressed, but ya get my point. Christians at least have decent parts of their book to pick from, as well as a relatively moral figure to follow and imitate. Muslims, on the other hand? Oh. Oh dear.

Well said. It's also worth pointing out that the Biblical calls for violence are Old Testament; Christianity is New Testament.

As for Muhammad, he was a man of his time. Christian leaders in his era were typically just as bad, except for the child rape. (One of the creepiest accounts I've ever read was the admiring talk of how Muhammad played with toy soldiers with his child wife.) But then, the Church is also famous for its dalliance with young boys, with vestiges remaining even today. In the early Middle Age, it was a Christian warrior abbot who gave us "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." Lots of evil was done in the name of Christianity, and to and including the Pope. (And by those opposed to the Pope.) The only big difference in Islam is that Muhammad is presumed to be perfect and 100% in line with G-d. And that is a freakin' HUGE difference. Unless and until that changes - and it requires no less than deciding that the Quran is NOT the literal commandment of G-d - Islam will continue to be at odds with Western civilization and most other forms - anything not built on the tenants of Islam.

Even if this huge change should ever happen, remember that Islam is not simply a religion; it contains rules for every facet of one's life. Islam is designed to be government and religion in one. Most Muslims are good people and like most all of us ignore the worst aspects of our religion, but there are two major bombs built into it.

 

[MongGrel]

One of the main problems of buckshot24 is he always sounds like an idealistic brainwashed 12 year old kid who thinks P&N is his forum to preach on and attempt to convert everyone.

 

[buckshot24]

We've been through this time and time again in that old religion thread. You never did provide chapter and verse to substantiate the argument that the commandments aren't binding.

That was for the Law not for commands of God telling Israel to wipe out nations. I suggest you read more from Paul on the subject of the Law.

It isn't. What if Christians idolized Lot? Or Samson? Never mind that Jesus commanded slaves to obey their masters as if they were serving him, for example.

Yeah, what if?

 

[MajinCry]

That was for the Law not for commands of God telling Israel to wipe out nations. I suggest you read more from Paul on the subject of the Law.

The Law has not been invalidated. For the OT to be so, the seventh covenant would have to be put into effect, the conditions being detailed in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Granted, Jesus' temporary sacrifice did invalidate the sacrificial law, much of which was defined in Leviticus 1-6.

And it's in Luke that Jesus says that the law will not be made invalid until all is fulfilled, said and done. So with the context of Jeremiah, all will be said and done, the old testament binding no longer, once every single person is a worshiper of Yahweh and knows & follows each and every commandment.

Yeah, what if?

Then it would be hard to tell the difference between a modern day Christian and a modern day Muslim, I would wager.

Well said. It's also worth pointing out that the Biblical calls for violence are Old Testament; Christianity is New Testament.

As for Muhammad, he was a man of his time. Christian leaders in his era were typically just as bad, except for the child rape. (One of the creepiest accounts I've ever read was the admiring talk of how Muhammad played with toy soldiers with his child wife.) But then, the Church is also famous for its dalliance with young boys, with vestiges remaining even today. In the early Middle Age, it was a Christian warrior abbot who gave us "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." Lots of evil was done in the name of Christianity, and to and including the Pope. (And by those opposed to the Pope.) The only big difference in Islam is that Muhammad is presumed to be perfect and 100% in line with G-d. And that is a freakin' HUGE difference. Unless and until that changes - and it requires no less than deciding that the Quran is NOT the literal commandment of G-d - Islam will continue to be at odds with Western civilization and most other forms - anything not built on the tenants of Islam.

Even if this huge change should ever happen, remember that Islam is not simply a religion; it contains rules for every facet of one's life. Islam is designed to be government and religion in one. Most Muslims are good people and like most all of us ignore the worst aspects of our religion, but there are two major bombs built into it.

The Abrahamic religions are of the same cloth. Were believers, ones that actually followed their books in their entirety, it would be near impossible to tell them apart unless you compared the way they prayed, dressed and the language they spoke; a barbarian that doesn't eat pork is near indistinguishable from a barbarian that doesn't work on Sunday.


Just so I don't get the ol' "BUT CHRISTIANS DID THIS TOO" lark thrown at me, if we were back in the dark ages (supposing the me back then would be the exact same as the me now), I'd be denouncing Christianity for the harrowing evil that it is.

But it's been a long time since then. Christianity has grown...Weak. We're not even done with the first quarter of the 21st century, and Islam is most certainly 'strong' and only getting stronger, with women being those that suffer most as a result.

You need only see what has happened to the Yazidi women, who are being gang raped, tortured, given forced abortions if their bellies are too big from the prior acts, then forced into sex slavery; to be sold to the highest bidder.

As far as Islam is concerned, the men perpetrating those evils are good Muslims. The abortion part may be a tad iffy, but that would only be the case if woman was a Muslim. Since she is an unbeliever, the child being that of one as well, the religion has no issue with it.

 

[Vic]

Vic's posts in this thread get the mental midget of the month award. Congratulations!

On a more serious note, we are so PC that we cannot properly identify a real threat anymore due to the possibility of hurt feelings. It's horseshit, and fuck you pussies who are PC. I am not. Fucking betas.

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

PC has nothing to do with this BTW. If you want to believe that persecuting over a billion people for their religious beliefs is an effective way to deal with one guy who shot a cop..

 

[realibrad]

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

PC has nothing to do with this BTW. If you want to believe that persecuting over a billion people for their religious beliefs is an effective way to deal with one guy who shot a cop..

Wait, who wants to persecute a billion people? At most I have seen is persecution of those in country X, but not people outside of their country.