So if you try to kill a cop in the name of Islam....it is not influenced by Islam

[Subyman]

2 things for me.

You seem to not want to "otherize" 1.3 billion people, but that group makes up the vast majority of terrorism in the world today.

Let's stop right there for a moment. You are being way too broad. This is almost the same as saying, "The group of humans make up the vast majority of terrorism." Saying 1/6th of the entire world's population is where the majority of terrorism (a very small number) comes from doesn't say much at all. We have to be way, way more specific to be meaningful. Incredibly small subsets of Muslims have formed terrorist cults. The Muslim family down the road running a 7/11 shouldn't be shuffled into the same group of people who are pillaging villages and strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east.

 

[Vic]

Hmm. If only there were some way to narrow this "wide net". Something they have in common. Some underlying factor . . .

The growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the West isn't about preventing crime or even terrorism. Those are legitimate concerns, but they're not what this discussion is about. It's about using fear to undermine the People's right to religious freedom. It's about trying to change the 1st amendment to say "except Islam."
Now there's a serious problem with that. Because as soon as we decide that just one religion can be exempted, then no religious belief is safe. Once the "Muslim threat" has been dealt with, then the next threats will the Jews, Mormons, JW's, Catholics, etc.
Rights are universal. Any time that you push for government to infringe upon another person's rights, without probable cause and due process, then you are pushing for government to do the exact same thing to you.

 

[Vic]

Let's stop right there for a moment. You are being way too broad. This is almost the same as saying, "The group of humans make up the vast majority of terrorism." Saying 1/6th of the entire world's population is where the majority of terrorism (a very small number) comes from doesn't say much at all. We have to be way, way more specific to be meaningful. Incredibly small subsets of Muslims have formed terrorist cults. The Muslim family down the road running a 7/11 shouldn't be shuffled into the same group of people who are pillaging villages and strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east.

We're seeing pretty much the same thing in Oregon with the Bundy cult. A group of religious fanatics is threatening violence unless their extremist demands are met.
Now I know, someone is going to interpret that into "Vic hates Christianity" when nothing could be further from the truth. See my post above. Maybe if you weren't trying to erode the rights of others, you'd be less worried about your own rights being eroded.

 

[MajinCry]

The growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the West isn't about preventing crime or even terrorism. Those are legitimate concerns, but they're not what this discussion is about. It's about using fear to undermine the People's right to religious freedom. It's about trying to change the 1st amendment to say "except Islam."
Now there's a serious problem with that. Because as soon as we decide that just one religion can be exempted, then no religious belief is safe. Once the "Muslim threat" has been dealt with, then the next threats will the Jews, Mormons, JW's, Catholics, etc.
Rights are universal. Any time that you push for government to infringe upon another person's rights, without probable cause and due process, then you are pushing for government to do the exact same thing to you.

Your rights to religious freedom end where the human rights of others begin.

See? That wasn't too hard.

 

[realibrad]

Let's stop right there for a moment. You are being way too broad. This is almost the same as saying, "The group of humans make up the vast majority of terrorism." Saying 1/6th of the entire world's population is where the majority of terrorism (a very small number) comes from doesn't say much at all. We have to be way, way more specific to be meaningful. Incredibly small subsets of Muslims have formed terrorist cults. The Muslim family down the road running a 7/11 shouldn't be shuffled into the same group of people who are pillaging villages and strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east.

To be clear, you are saying that a group that makes up almost 17% of the worlds population, yet accounts for over 70% of all terrorist deaths is too broad? Ok, well I guess you could say that Sunni terrorists accounted for about 70% of the terrorist murders if that helps. Another way to look at it is 83% of the world other than Muslims accounted for only 30% of the overall terrorism.

Now, ISIS accounts for the vast majority of terrorism, not just religious terrorism.

I completely agree that the typical US Muslim is very different than the typical Muslim from the middle east.

I want to be clear, I am not saying we need to do anything to take away the rights of Muslims. I am not advocating tracking Muslims either. I am just pointing out that Muslims right now, make up the vast majority of terrorism.

 

[buckshot24]

The Law has not been invalidated. For the OT to be so, the seventh covenant would have to be put into effect, the conditions being detailed in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

How many times do you need to be refuted on this point? It doesn't say what you're saying it says. Right there in verse 31 should be a major clue.

Then it would be hard to tell the difference between a modern day Christian and a modern day Muslim, I would wager.

Yeah and if I could lactate I could nurse baby wolves.

 

[buckshot24]

Let's stop right there for a moment. You are being way too broad. This is almost the same as saying, "The group of humans make up the vast majority of terrorism." Saying 1/6th of the entire world's population is where the majority of terrorism (a very small number) comes from doesn't say much at all. We have to be way, way more specific to be meaningful. Incredibly small subsets of Muslims have formed terrorist cults. The Muslim family down the road running a 7/11 shouldn't be shuffled into the same group of people who are pillaging villages and strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east.

There is clear justification for their actions in their book. Most Muslims don't follow those justifications but it is in there. It isn't coincidence that most of these terrorist acts are committed by people who claim to be Muslim.

 

[buckshot24]

Your rights to religious freedom end where the human rights of others begin.

See? That wasn't too hard.

What human rights? You think humans are meat machines.

 

[Vic]

Your rights to religious freedom end where the human rights of others begin.

See? That wasn't too hard.

I completely agree. But belief, in and of itself, harms no one's rights. Now if an individual, or group of individuals, decides to go beyond belief and opinion and take harmful and/or illegal actions, then those individual(s) should be dealt with in accordance with the law. But that's it. Beliefs and opinions, or even religions, don't break the law, people do.

 

[Blue_Max]

PC has nothing to do with this BTW. If you want to believe that persecuting over a billion people for their religious beliefs is an effective way to deal with one guy who shot a cop..

1) Their 'religious' beliefs include hating all jews and completely condoning their brutal extinction. You really want to PROTECT that?
(You again fail to realize islam is far more than just a religion, it's an entire culture with 'religion' as merely one of its tentacles. You allow the tentacle, you allow in the entire creature.)

2) It's not just ONE guy that shot [x]. It's hundreds of thousands across the globe today, raping and murdering in the name of allah and quoting their book to do it. They're following the example of their 'great prophet' who did these things and told his followers to do likewise. And they consider anyone who contradicts them to be the evil ones, since their actions are sanctified by big-mo and big al.

...and you get bent out of shape and say "Yooouuu don't get to say what it is they believe!" That's just it - I'm not. It's in their book and even someone as stubborn as yourself can see it for yourself by picking one up and reading for yourself. Then open your eyes to their world actions to see it for what it is.

If they win and come to power in your homeland, there will be no reward for you defending them - you'll be next on the chopping block and/or raping mattress. They don't appreciate your support, they mock you for your gullibility.

 

[Subyman]

To be clear, you are saying that a group that makes up almost 17% of the worlds population, yet accounts for over 70% of all terrorist deaths is too broad? Ok, well I guess you could say that Sunni terrorists accounted for about 70% of the terrorist murders if that helps. Another way to look at it is 83% of the world other than Muslims accounted for only 30% of the overall terrorism.

Yes, way too broad. You aren't including magnitudes or any type of scale in your assessment. There are roughly 184,000 terrorists if you mash every terrorist organization together and everyone who ever sent a person affiliated with a terrorist organization money. Now we have to subtract off non-muslim terrorists. Now it gets sketchy. A large number of terrorists are actually in South America. Let's go ahead and say 70% of those terrorists are Islamic organizations. So, world-wide we have 128,000 Islamic terrorists using the broadest definition possible (Al Qaida only numbers less than 4,000 these days...)

The current number of muslims in the world is 1.6B. So, 1.6B/128,000 = 12500. 1 in 12,500 in the group you are broadly sweeping is somewhat affiliated with a terrorist organization. Doesn't that seem a bit broad? In fact, 1 in 140 people in the US is in prison right now. It would be more appropriate to say, an American citizen is 10x more likely to be a criminal in jail than a muslim in the world to be somehow affiliated with terrorism.

Also considering that terrorists aren't evenly distributed throughout the population and tend to group together in clusters, the chances of randomly bumping into a terrorist on the street is negligible. The vast majority of terrorists hang out in the ME.

I completely agree that the typical US Muslim is very different than the typical Muslim from the middle east.

So for the average American, the chance of a muslim they meet on the streets being a terrorist is even lower than the 1/12,500 because there are not any domestic Islamic terrorist organizations based in the US.

I am just pointing out that Muslims right now, make up the vast majority of terrorism.

So we are looking at 0.008% of Muslims are somehow affiliated with a terrorist organization in the broadest way possible. Or 99.992% are in no way possible affiliated with terrorism. Does it sound appropriate to cast a shadow on a group where 99.992% of the the group make up is in no way affiliated with what you are talking about?

So what you are saying doesn't say much without context and scale.

 

[Vic]

1) Their 'religious' beliefs include hating all jews and completely condoning their brutal extinction. You really want to PROTECT that?
(You again fail to realize islam is far more than just a religion, it's an entire culture with 'religion' as merely one of its tentacles. You allow the tentacle, you allow in the entire creature.)

2) It's not just ONE guy that shot [x]. It's hundreds of thousands across the globe today, raping and murdering in the name of allah and quoting their book to do it. They're following the example of their 'great prophet' who did these things and told his followers to do likewise. And they consider anyone who contradicts them to be the evil ones, since their actions are sanctified by big-mo and big al.

...and you get bent out of shape and say "Yooouuu don't get to say what it is they believe!" That's just it - I'm not. It's in their book and even someone as stubborn as yourself can see it for yourself by picking one up and reading for yourself. Then open your eyes to their world actions to see it for what it is.

If they win and come to power in your homeland, there will be no reward for you defending them - you'll be next on the chopping block and/or raping mattress. They don't appreciate your support, they mock you for your gullibility.

Oh look, you went full retard.

 

[Blue_Max]

Oh look, you went full retard.

Riiight.
And this didn't happen either, only two days ago: http://www.therebel.media/two_mohameds_calgary_bar_and_media_party_terrorism

 

[Vic]

Who gives a shit? I'm not "protecting" Islam, I'm protecting my own right to religious freedom (which isn't Islam BTW). Or to hold whatever belief or opinion that I care to (or don't care to) without interference from the government or people like you.
I know this kind of thinking is hard for you to understand, Blue_Max, but you probably don't understand that haven't provided any feasible solution to this issue either.

 

[Vic]

BTW, I actually have read the Quran (back in my 20s), which makes it really easy for me to tell that you haven't.

 

[realibrad]

...

There are a lot of things inbetween a non violent person, and a terrorist. The issue I am bringing up is the belief that Islam and its culture are creating far more terrorists then any other religion. I am not saying that we should round up Muslims and throw them into the sea either.

If it were as simple as terrorist and everyone else who holds moral views, then you would be completely right that it would be too broad. When you look at polls about beliefs, it becomes clear that there is not just one side or another.

Now, the other main religions also have much of the same things the Quran does, but people ignore the bad parts. The Bible advocates some pretty horrible things, so I don't want to come off as a pro Christian either. I'm an atheist 100% and I do not believe we would have a better world with morality taught by any religion. Logic is a much better way to get morality from.

The problem with Islam and its culture, is that those things are pretty much one in the same right now. In the west, Christianity and culture are pretty split. People have religion and it influences culture no doubt, but they are very split. In countries where the population is majority Muslim, they are so fused that you could never really get secular law in. Its very much like the Catholic church during the dark ages. The church was into every part of society. What we need is a split of church and state, but that is hampered by Islam inherently.

Islam is the perfect word and morality of god. You will be put to death for questioning that. If you try and say that the Quran has something wrong, you will have a tough time staying alive.

Again, look at turkey. It was once very secular, and is not anymore. We cant blame the west for abuses with Turkey as they have be in Nato for a while now.

 

[Moonbeam]

There are a lot of things inbetween a non violent person, and a terrorist. The issue I am bringing up is the belief that Islam and its culture are creating far more terrorists then any other religion. I am not saying that we should round up Muslims and throw them into the sea either.

If it were as simple as terrorist and everyone else who holds moral views, then you would be completely right that it would be too broad. When you look at polls about beliefs, it becomes clear that there is not just one side or another.

Now, the other main religions also have much of the same things the Quran does, but people ignore the bad parts. The Bible advocates some pretty horrible things, so I don't want to come off as a pro Christian either. I'm an atheist 100% and I do not believe we would have a better world with morality taught by any religion. Logic is a much better way to get morality from.

The problem with Islam and its culture, is that those things are pretty much one in the same right now. In the west, Christianity and culture are pretty split. People have religion and it influences culture no doubt, but they are very split. In countries where the population is majority Muslim, they are so fused that you could never really get secular law in. Its very much like the Catholic church during the dark ages. The church was into every part of society. What we need is a split of church and state, but that is hampered by Islam inherently.

Islam is the perfect word and morality of god. You will be put to death for questioning that. If you try and say that the Quran has something wrong, you will have a tough time staying alive.

Again, look at turkey. It was once very secular, and is not anymore. We cant blame the west for abuses with Turkey as they have be in Nato for a while now.

Here you have stated your beliefs and why you feel justified to believe in your belief and its rectitude, why you are called to action. You are just like every other believer. You believe in your belief and feel that if others don't believe as you do you may not be safe. Aren't you only supposed to do that if you are without sin?

 

[werepossum]

The growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the West isn't about preventing crime or even terrorism. Those are legitimate concerns, but they're not what this discussion is about. It's about using fear to undermine the People's right to religious freedom. It's about trying to change the 1st amendment to say "except Islam."
Now there's a serious problem with that. Because as soon as we decide that just one religion can be exempted, then no religious belief is safe. Once the "Muslim threat" has been dealt with, then the next threats will the Jews, Mormons, JW's, Catholics, etc.
Rights are universal. Any time that you push for government to infringe upon another person's rights, without probable cause and due process, then you are pushing for government to do the exact same thing to you.

That's a nice speech but it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Not recognizing (or at least, not admitting) that these terrorists are driven by Islam and have a lot of support and/or sympathy among Muslims is pure PC. It's as if I refused to admit that people who murder abortion clinic workers are mostly middle-aged white evangelical Christian males. I can recognize that fact without any implicit requirement to oppress middle-aged white evangelical Christian males, just as I can recognize that most terrorists are Muslims (and why) without calling for a pogrom against Muslims.

 

[Vic]

That's a nice speech but it has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion. Not recognizing (or at least, not admitting) that these terrorists are driven by Islam and have a lot of support and/or sympathy among Muslims is pure PC. It's as if I refused to admit that people who murder abortion clinic workers are mostly middle-aged white evangelical Christian males. I can recognize that fact without any implicit requirement to oppress middle-aged white evangelical Christian males, just as I can recognize that most terrorists are Muslims (and why) without calling for a pogrom against Muslims.

I completely recognize that terrorists are mostly Muslims, and that abortion clinic bombers are mostly fundamentalist Christians.
So then what is the discussion about here? Just a circle jerk?

 

[werepossum]

I completely recognize that terrorists are mostly Muslims, and that abortion clinic bombers are mostly fundamentalist Christians.
So then what is the discussion about here? Just a circle jerk?

It's about your (and others') insistence that we pretend otherwise, for fear of offending Muslims.

 

[Moonbeam]

Who gives a shit? I'm not "protecting" Islam, I'm protecting my own right to religious freedom (which isn't Islam BTW). Or to hold whatever belief or opinion that I care to (or don't care to) without interference from the government or people like you.
I know this kind of thinking is hard for you to understand, Blue_Max, but you probably don't understand that haven't provided any feasible solution to this issue either.

People who understand what it means to be a real American aren't very common anymore.

 

[Moonbeam]

It's about your (and others') insistence that we pretend otherwise, for fear of offending Muslims.

Are you really so programmed that you need to demonize others for such incredible made up reasons. Who gives a flying fig about offending terrorists. Terrorists are folk who feel like shit. You can't damage the sensibilities of a hanged man. The reason you don't act as if all of those miserable others despised by conservative brain defectives don't get the idea that you fools represent real American values, that you don't throw a flaming torch at the feet of the Statue of Liberty and all the founders stood for. You poor brain damaged fuckers slime the American way because your inner disgust for the other is nothing more than the projection of your own self hate. Inwardly you feel filthy and you want to make others feel that way. You have a terrible disease. You are the very animals you think should be hunted down and shot. You're disease is a menace to the human race.

 

[Captain Picard]

Are you really so programmed that you need to demonize others for such incredible made up reasons.

So the events in Paris, Cologne, and Geneva are just "made up" reasons to be disgusted with islam? Those events are all results of behaviors sanctioned by that blasted cult.

 

[Vic]

It's about your (and others') insistence that we pretend otherwise, for fear of offending Muslims.

I don't even know what you're talking about. You can offend anyone you want. I have no power to stop you or anyone else here from doing so except to be inclined to express a differing opinion. Drop the victim complex and get over it.

The heart of my opinion on this issue is that your opinions are just bullshit. Rant after rant after rant about how all Muslims are evil, and they're all the same, and they're all forced by -- insert cherrypicked passage from Quran here -- to kill every non-Muslim, and blah blah blah blah blah. When the reality is that Muslims are just as diverse in the interpretation of their faith as Christians are. And to put that in perspective, the Christian church I attend supports -- and performs -- same-sex marriages.
Oh yeah, and the Christian church that I grew up in (but am no longer actively involved with), buckshot24 regularly rants here that it isn't even Christian, but some 'church of the devil.'
Why do you think that they're united when we aren't?

 

[Moonbeam]

So the events in Paris, Cologne, and Geneva are just "made up" reasons to be disgusted with islam? Those events are all results of behaviors sanctioned by that blasted cult.

All those people harmed in those incidents were harmed for made up reasons exactly as you are making up reasons to justify your hatred of them. The only difference between you and them is that they acted on them. Would you like to do the same? Every monster of the ego thinks of himself or herself as good. The only difference is the lies they use to convince themselves.