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So how's that gun prohibition working for you Brits?

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
When I see a paper prepared by the gun lobby to supply talking points for debates on the internet and in the media, I immediately raise an eyebrow. When I start checking sources, and the first source I find has been blatantly misrepresented, I start to wonder about the value added of putting more time into it. It takes a while to check through that many sources. I'll give it a look this weekend if I have the time. In the meantime, you might check some of them yourself, particularly if you want to keep linking that paper.

Incidentally, I am not in favor of stricter gun control, at least not here in the U.S. I tend to doubt it would decrease violent crime here for a variety of reasons. Miron has some interesting points in that paper I linked - that drug prohibition here is likely a factor in our relatively high homicide rate, and there are possibly cultural factors as well. My own view is that other democracies which have more gun control tend to have populations which support gun control, and they likely support gun control because they are less violent cultures. But it isn't the gun control itself that reduces the homicides, but the fact that the culture is less violent to begin with. Here, I think gun control is counter-productive. We like our guns so much that we're going to get them no matter what. There's that, and the fact that we have the Second Amendment which must be respected.

- wolf
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Irrelevant.
Haha. Typical. Faced with facts you can't refute you simply choose to ignore the facts.

Simply put. Placing restrictions on law abiding citizens doesn't curtail crime. CRIMINAL DONT CARE IF THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. They already have access to guns, knives, and whatever else they want. Stop the sale and confiscate every legally owned gun the the US and I promise you the rate of murder won't go down as much as you might think.

There are so many illegal un traceable guns out there it's assinine to try and curtail them. As loose as our border is with Mexico, Not only will drugs be big business smuggling in, but gun smuggling will be come even bigger. Ever wonder how gangs and such get fully auto weapons? They aren't buying them from Cabela's or Big 5. They're getting them from the Mexicans.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
When I see a paper prepared by the gun lobby to supply talking points for debates on the internet and in the media, I immediately raise an eyebrow. When I start checking sources, and the first source I find has been blatantly misrepresented, I start to wonder about the value added of putting more time into it. It takes a while to check through that many sources. I'll give it a look this weekend if I have the time. In the meantime, you might check some of them yourself, particularly if you want to keep linking that paper.

Incidentally, I am not in favor of stricter gun control, at least not here in the U.S. I tend to doubt it would decrease violent crime here for a variety of reasons. Miron has some interesting points in that paper I linked - that drug prohibition here is likely a factor in our relatively high homicide rate, and there are possibly cultural factors as well. My own view is that other democracies which have more gun control tend to have populations which support gun control, and they likely support gun control because they are less violent cultures. But it isn't the gun control itself that reduces the homicides, but the fact that the culture is less violent to begin with. Here, I think gun control is counter-productive. We like our guns so much that we're going to get them no matter what. There's that, and the fact that we have the Second Amendment which must be respected.

- wolf
Kind of like when I see a paper published by the BRady Campaign or some other Anti-Gun group. I can't believe any of the stats they publish because time and time again they have been proven wrong.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,480
3,593
126
Haha. Typical. Faced with facts you can't refute you simply choose to ignore the facts.

Simply put. Placing restrictions on law abiding citizens doesn't curtail crime. CRIMINAL DONT CARE IF THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. They already have access to guns, knives, and whatever else they want. Stop the sale and confiscate every legally owned gun the the US and I promise you the rate of murder won't go down as much as you might think.

There are so many illegal un traceable guns out there it's assinine to try and curtail them. As loose as our border is with Mexico, Not only will drugs be big business smuggling in, but gun smuggling will be come even bigger. Ever wonder how gangs and such get fully auto weapons? They aren't buying them from Cabela's or Big 5. They're getting them from the Mexicans.
More irrelevant nonsense.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
79,374
12,217
126
I'm not terribly enthusiastic with any nation disarming its citizens but this was an obvious troll thread from the title alone.
 

Medu

Member
Mar 9, 2010
149
0
76
Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.

Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.46

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.48

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies

Fact: “... [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either
the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”50

Fact: A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market
weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in
circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that
criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of
25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 53

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years
after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving
handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of
attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.54

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year
figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a
country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.56

Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late
nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per
100,000.57 In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide
rate is around 1.4.58 This shows that the homicide rate does not vary with either the level
of gun control or gun availability.

Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000.
Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age
20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) has a homicide rate of 1.2 per
100,000. And to date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.59

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf


Yep. Works great! :awe:
Nice info from the last century.

Oh here is some up to date info. 42 gun related deaths in the UK in 2009-lowest in 20 years. What is it at in the States- 15,000-20,000?
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
Nice info from the last century.

Oh here is some up to date info. 42 gun related deaths in the UK in 2009-lowest in 20 years. What is it at in the States- 15,000-20,000?
Guns dont stop crime. They are now stabbing people, at record rates


The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html



"Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz0t8TGoQPa"



* The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
* It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
* The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
* It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.


In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.


Grats on your gun ban. Enjoy your increase in crime.
 
Last edited:

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Kind of like when I see a paper published by the BRady Campaign or some other Anti-Gun group. I can't believe any of the stats they publish because time and time again they have been proven wrong.
I agree. Any information from lobbying groups on any issue is immediately suspect. The only value in those kinds of tracts is that they may provide some primary sources you can check. But you always have to check the sources, no matter which side the lobbying group is on.

- wolf
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,865
5
0
LOL @ sandorski. Sucks when the facts don't fit into your little government-control bubble, right? Oh, yeah, they're all "irrelevant".
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Wolfe brings up good points, the US does have a unique culture and it loves its violence. I don't know how much, objectively, countries like Canada like violence when in comparison. It's hard to compare.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
LOL @ sandorski. Sucks when the facts don't fit into your little government-control bubble, right? Oh, yeah, they're all "irrelevant".
It honestly surprises me he hasn't been banned yet. 99% of the time he's not contributing anything, he's just spamming and trolling.
 

ModestGamer

Banned
Jun 30, 2010
1,140
0
0
When I see a paper prepared by the gun lobby to supply talking points for debates on the internet and in the media, I immediately raise an eyebrow. When I start checking sources, and the first source I find has been blatantly misrepresented, I start to wonder about the value added of putting more time into it. It takes a while to check through that many sources. I'll give it a look this weekend if I have the time. In the meantime, you might check some of them yourself, particularly if you want to keep linking that paper.

Incidentally, I am not in favor of stricter gun control, at least not here in the U.S. I tend to doubt it would decrease violent crime here for a variety of reasons. Miron has some interesting points in that paper I linked - that drug prohibition here is likely a factor in our relatively high homicide rate, and there are possibly cultural factors as well. My own view is that other democracies which have more gun control tend to have populations which support gun control, and they likely support gun control because they are less violent cultures. But it isn't the gun control itself that reduces the homicides, but the fact that the culture is less violent to begin with. Here, I think gun control is counter-productive. We like our guns so much that we're going to get them no matter what. There's that, and the fact that we have the Second Amendment which must be respected.

- wolf

How I read this.

americans are violent " I agree"
gun control increase public safety " I disagree "
the drug war is cuasing alot of homocides " I agree"

BTW your not to far off. A well armed populace is a respected and feared populace. I want politicans to wonder if today is the day we march to washington and burn the capitol.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
I'll give the UK credit in this regard - the saw a problem, and took steps to try to improve the situation - you can dispute the results, but they didn't pull a USA move and stick their heads in the sand.
 

ModestGamer

Banned
Jun 30, 2010
1,140
0
0
I'll give the UK credit in this regard - the saw a problem, and took steps to try to improve the situation - you can dispute the results, but they didn't pull a USA move and stick their heads in the sand.

what problem ? criminals don't give a fuck about gun laws. Thats why they are criminals.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
LOL @ sandorski. Sucks when the facts don't fit into your little government-control bubble, right? Oh, yeah, they're all "irrelevant".
Well, Sandorski often doesn't offer substance, but he's basically correct here. For example, that Daily Mail article on violent crime in the UK. Read it all. In the UK there are certain crimes defined as "violent" which are not defined as violent in other countries. The recording standards are apples to oranges when you're talking about "violent crime." That is true here in the U.S., where many if not most crimes classed as "violent" involve no injury. A robbery is always classed as a violent crime, for example. It means taking property by force or threat of force. So even a threat that the perp has no intention of carrying out, that is a robbery, and a "violent crime." A purse snatching is also a robbery, and a violent crime.

If you are going to make comparisons, it has to be apples to apples. Homicide is a pretty good comparison, because the definition doesn't really vary from country to country. The murder rate in the U.K. is only a third of what it is in the U.S.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

- wolf
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,665
0
71
Well, Sandorski often doesn't offer substance, but he's basically correct here. For example, that Daily Mail article on violent crime in the UK. Read it all. In the UK there are certain crimes defined as "violent" which are not defined as violent in other countries. The recording standards are apples to oranges when you're talking about "violent crime." That is true here in the U.S., where many if not most crimes classed as "violent" involve no injury. A robbery is always classed as a violent crime, for example. It means taking property by force or threat of force. So even a threat that the perp has no intention of carrying out, that is a robbery, and a "violent crime." A purse snatching is also a robbery, and a violent crime.

If you are going to make comparisons, it has to be apples to apples. Homicide is a pretty good comparison, because the definition doesn't really vary from country to country. The murder rate in the U.K. is only a third of what it is in the U.S.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

- wolf
This. But what are really needed are the murder stats in the UK before and after their gun ban. Not that there aren't other variables at play, but those are the necessary data in judging the ban's efficacy.
 

Medu

Member
Mar 9, 2010
149
0
76
Guns dont stop crime. They are now stabbing people, at record rates


The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html



"Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz0t8TGoQPa"



* The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
* It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
* The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
* It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.


In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.


Grats on your gun ban. Enjoy your increase in crime.
You do realise that most countries in Europe have tight gun control- so what you are really saying is that the UK has higher crime rates than *random EU country* because the UK has very strict gun laws- even though *random EU country* also has strict guns laws!

Also those stats are completely twisted. For example the Oz figure of 92 does not include assaults which is a huge percentage of violent crimes.
 

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