Snowden says he was a spy, not just an analyst - Interview 10 pm tonight NBC

[irishScott]

Powerful threat! Sure sign you're winning the argument!

The only difference between the thread conversation as it stands, versus you having put everyone on ignore, is you don't have any comments in this thread. Everyone else discusses as they currently are.

All you have contributed to the discussion is your stance that classified information should never be leaked. And when confronted with questions to expand on those thoughts, on your reasonings, you clam up and threaten to ignore everyone.

To be fair, that's the same strategy the government's using.

 

[mrjminer]

I think the real question is, are you glad you know what you know now since his revelations, or do you wish you were still in the dark? And was the government's decision to be more transparent in reaction to the leaks a bad one?

1. Nope. I don't take joy in the knowledge that some traitor sold out my country because he refused to take appropriate channels to address the issue he thought was present and wanted to be a soldier of morality at the expense of what was an effective, large-scale espionage operation that had significant potential to save lives. Then again, I'm not a dickhead.

2. I don't know about what transparency has come of this, but I will say tying our government's hands by releasing classified information to stop them from gathering intelligence on foreign assets to protect our interests is not how to go about "transparency." Your phrasing of it as a "decision," though, implies they had some kind of choice after having some piece of shit like Snowden give every country on the planet information about how we were effectively and unknowingly spying on them.

3. Neither of these questions matter at all, as I've explained in pretty much every one of my posts in this thread, and to which some lunatics here are unable to comprehend because they're morons: the only thing that matters is: did he release classified information related to national security? Yup. In other words, he's a traitor. Heralding him as some sort of hero for a cause is borderline, if not beyond borderline, fucking crazy.

Powerful threat! Sure sign you're winning the argument!
The only difference between the thread conversation as it stands, versus you having put everyone on ignore, is you don't have any comments in this thread. Everyone else discusses as they currently are.
All you have contributed to the discussion is your stance that classified information should never be leaked. And when confronted with questions to expand on those thoughts, on your reasonings, you clam up and threaten to ignore everyone.

ROFL. Go through and read the thread.

I've rebutted any question that I hadn't already rebutted, or wasn't someone stroking themselves and acting as though they somehow posted anything meaningful and warranting response. Why am I going to "expand my thoughts" on things discounted? Yea man, I'm totally wrong because your definition of "winning" an argument is something to the effect of "Edward Snowden is right because his morals and intentions are good" for like 10 posts straight. Meaningless drivel is meaningless. Like your post, dumbass #5

--
Anyways, I'm going to bed. At least one of the people I've labeled as dumbass in this thread has some serious psychological problems and should seek treatment. If you can read this, you shouldn't take this advice lightly.

 

[cubby1223]

To be fair, that's the same strategy the government's using.

Back with the Manning document leaks, I considered him a traitor for spilling classified information. But the more time goes on I view him differently, and wish he were treated better. I never looked at Snowden as a traitor.

Early in this thread we have others calling him a "self-aggrandizing asshole" and an "attention whore."

No. Kim Kardashian is a self-aggrandizing asshole and attention whore.

When has anything Snowden said or done been on the level of "look at me! Look at how great and wonderful I am!"


But what irritates me more than anything else is how absolutely childish our high-level government officials have reacted! John Kerry telling him to "man up"? Fuck you, Kerry, I'm glad you lost to dubya.

 

[sportage]

It's now all too clear. The little man just wanted attention. That's why he leaked, why he fled, and why he pretends to be his own infamous action hero. Sad sad little man. Well.. I have to at least give him credit for not grabbing a gun and killing strangers just because no one paid attention to him. What a nut case.

 

[cubby1223]

ROFL. Go through and read the thread.

I've rebutted any question that I hadn't already rebutted, or wasn't someone stroking themselves and acting as though they somehow posted anything meaningful and warranting response. Why am I going to "expand my thoughts" on things discounted? Yea man, I'm totally wrong because your definition of "winning" an argument is something to the effect of "Edward Snowden is right because his morals and intentions are good" for like 10 posts straight. Meaningless drivel is meaningless. Like your post, dumbass #5

--
Anyways, I'm going to bed. Some of you guys have some serious psychological problems and should seek treatment.

Thanks for the laugh before I head off to sleep! 🙂

You rebutted nothing beyond your stance that classified information should never be leaked.

And then you puff your chest and prove you're right by threatening to put everyone on ignore!

But of course you should never see this response of mine, because now I'm on ignore too, right? 🙂


It seems as if the Snowden leaks have negatively affected you directly, or have directly affected someone you care about. If so, by all means discuss it. But to make the blanket stance that "it was classified, therefore case closed" is just stupid.

 

[cubby1223]

That's why...he fled

Was Bradley Manning treated well by our military's judicial system prior to his trial? Snowden was smart to leave the country. I cannot fault him for wanting to have a future.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Back with the Manning document leaks, I considered him a traitor for spilling classified information. But the more time goes on I view him differently, and wish he were treated better. I never looked at Snowden as a traitor.

Early in this thread we have others calling him a "self-aggrandizing asshole" and an "attention whore."

No. Kim Kardashian is a self-aggrandizing asshole and attention whore.

When has anything Snowden said or done been on the level of "look at me! Look at how great and wonderful I am!"


But what irritates me more than anything else is how absolutely childish our high-level government officials have reacted! John Kerry telling him to "man up"? Fuck you, Kerry, I'm glad you lost to dubya.

Were you just not paying attention when he first defected?

 

[cubby1223]

Were you just not paying attention when he first defected?

Paid more attention than those who believe this was all done to be an attention whore.

Personally I don't particularly care about media coverage or any of that. I'm looking at the content, the leaked information, and I personally think it is better that they were leaked. So I'm not focusing in on the personality of who leaked them, making judgments based on his media coverage.

I'm judging the leaked information separate from the person. The question of Snowden's personality is of much, much lesser importance to me, I really don't factor it in. But when others jump to arguing he is a coward for leaving the country, now those people are just being stupid. We have comparable situations to his, and they're not good outcomes. Snowden was smart to leave the country. Having our Secretary of State making a speech telling him to "man up"? To me he is saying "my ego is bruised and I'm old and I don't have anything better to say other than a macho phrase that has no relevance in today's society." Kerry making statements that people should act the way he wants them to act otherwise he is less manly, in other words womanly? That is what Kerry called Snowden - a woman. Apparently leaving the country is something only a woman would do, a true man would never do such a thing! And we're a nation who only wants macho manly men doing manly things like eating tree bark!

Congrats Kerry, you just made Snowden an even bigger propaganda tool than he already is!


I also believe it is a horrible situation that Snowden is in Russia being used as a propaganda tool against the U.S. But... I'm laying the blame there on the U.S. government's decision to crucify him if he ever sets foot on U.S. soil again.


Again, just speaking on personal opinion, I don't imagine he's living a happy, comfortable life. I have to imagine he is still living in fear of the consequences of his actions, along with the fear of what the Russian government will do with him once he ceases to be a valuable propaganda tool. The very notion that he is enjoying being this attention whore? To me there is no chance at all this is the case.

 

[irishScott]

Paid more attention than those who believe this was all done to be an attention whore.

Personally I don't particularly care about media coverage or any of that. I'm looking at the content, the leaked information, and I personally think it is better that they were leaked. So I'm not focusing in on the personality of who leaked them, making judgments based on his media coverage.

I'm judging the leaked information separate from the person. The question of Snowden's personality is of much, much lesser importance to me, I really don't factor it in. But when others jump to arguing he is a coward for leaving the country, now those people are just being stupid. We have comparable situations to his, and they're not good outcomes. Snowden was smart to leave the country. Having our Secretary of State making a speech telling him to "man up"? To me he is saying "my ego is bruised and I'm old and I don't have anything better to say other than a macho phrase that has no relevance in today's society." Kerry making statements that people should act the way he wants them to act otherwise he is less manly, in other words womanly? That is what Kerry called Snowden - a woman.

I also believe it is a horrible situation that Snowden is in Russia and is being used as a propaganda tool against the U.S. But... I'm laying the blame there on the U.S. government's decision to crucify him if he ever sets foot on U.S. soil again.


Again, just speaking on personal opinion, I don't imagine he's living a happy, comfortable life. I have to imagine he is still living in fear of the consequences of his actions, along with the fear of what the Russian government will do with him once he ceases to be a valuable propaganda tool. The very notion that he is enjoying being this attention whore? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh no, clearly Putin set him up in Russia with all the Vodka Martinis and strippers he could ask for! Being a whistleblower and permanently banned from your home country and forced to live in an ex-Soviet authoritarian shithole? BEST IDEA EVARRRRR, look at how awesome it is!!!! /sarcasm

There are some who admire his actions, but I don't see anyone wanting to be him or him implying that anyone should want to be him.

 

[cubby1223]

Again to the whole "attention whore" line of thinking...

The likely reality is - the moment he drops off from the media spotlight, he dies.


And to even think Snowden has the option of returning to the U.S.? How is that going to work? The Russian government is going to allow Snowden to freely hop on a plane out of the country into the arms of their enemy? When he is such a valuable asset as a propaganda tool for themselves?

Yes, John Kerry, our great elected official and Secretary of State, the current situation can so fittingly be summed up so as the only thing preventing Snowden from returning to the U.S. is his womanly approach to life.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

Again to the whole "attention whore" line of thinking...

The likely reality is - the moment he drops off from the media spotlight, he dies.


And to even think Snowden has the option of returning to the U.S.? How is that going to work? The Russian government is going to allow Snowden to freely hop on a plane out of the country into the arms of their enemy? When he is such a valuable asset as a propaganda tool for themselves?

Yes, John Kerry, our great elected official and Secretary of State, the current situation can so fittingly be summed up so as the only thing preventing Snowden from returning to the U.S. is his womanly approach to life.

lol yeah "man up" and face a kangaroo court

 

[michal1980]

1. Nope. I don't take joy in the knowledge that some traitor sold out my country because he refused to take appropriate channels to address the issue he thought was present and wanted to be a soldier of morality at the expense of what was an effective, large-scale espionage operation that had significant potential to save lives. Then again, I'm not a dickhead.
.

The only traitor here is the Untied States government, that treats every citizen as a criminal. Treating everyone as guilty all the time.

According to the interview, and semi verified by NBC snowden did try to go through official channels and got blown off. A result that is too be expected. The people in charge put in these programs, how many of them are going to come out and say they are doing something illegal, or just simply evil? None.

The NSA, CIA, FBI, etc, would never ever have allowed any of the information he released to come to light through official channels. Those fuckers lied in front of congress, and you expect them to take Snowden seriously? He'd probably be dead if he pushed back any more through official channels.

And please point out what harm has happened to the US government? And point out when benefit these programs provide(d)? You cant, why because everything is secret. Talk about an awesome job, you can do whatever you want, and have zero responsibility for the consequences.

 

[TerryMathews]

Sweet, so you see the positive effects of something you didn't know existed no longer existing. I guess such positive effects would be along the lines of relinquishing our control over the internet prematurely (to be fair, this probably would have happened at some point anyways, but that's definitely power we don't want to have as a nation as long as possible!), straining relations with our allies (which is always a plus!), reducing our ability to gather intelligence on foreign assets (this one has a huge thumbs up, too!), and permitting those being monitored to find means to communicate which aren't monitored (definitely can't argue with you there, either!).

We don't even need to delve into the realm of possibility with covert allegiances being formed or strengthened against us, because anything coming out of that is surely a positive, too.

All hail Edward Snowden! Liberator of the free world! Heroic knight against the US government securing their interests against foreign assets!



I've stated this a few times, but the point is indefensible. Even if you say it doesn't matter, it does matter that he had no authority to take it upon himself to release the information. Either way, the information he released is covered by national security -- unless you categorize our espionage of foreign nations on the same level as putt-putt golf.

As for Ellsberg, even though that was outside of my lifetime, a quick look at Wikipedia makes it obvious; illegal evidence gathering and lost evidence got him acquitted because the case became irreparably tainted, to summarize my perusal. Aside from that, there is the question of whether or not the information should have been classified, by today's standards (I am not looking up previous judgments of what constitutes classified throughout history for this) -- but he still would not have had the authority to make the decision himself, regardless. We will never know, and the subject is entirely irrelevant to Snowden because there is no question that espionage of other nations is entirely a national security issue.

Aside from the Nixon comedy and his involvement derived from your silly "based on who is in the White House" ridiculousness, it matters not who is in the White House. Only a dickhead would support a traitor based on a political party, or give merit to one at all.

There is nothing else to discuss with you then. If you are unwilling to compare and contrast the single most comparable case in our history with what happened with Snowden then there is nothing else that can be said.

Snowden followed his conscience regardless of the personal consequences. He is a patriot in the truest sense of the word.

/thread

 

[tommo123]

First and foremost, the guy is a traitor.

Secondly, he's a self-aggrandizing asshole.

how is he a traitor? your gov betrayed it's citizens with self admitted illegal acts. all he did was call them on it.

he's a hero betrayed by lazy americans who can't see how totalitarian you're becoming

 

[Oldgamer]

There is nothing else to discuss with you then. If you are unwilling to compare and contrast the single most comparable case in our history with what happened with Snowden then there is nothing else that can be said.

Snowden followed his conscience regardless of the personal consequences. He is a patriot in the truest sense of the word.

/thread

Totally agreed, I for one think he is a Patriot.

 

[GTaudiophile]

We in the public do not have all of the facts that government does, we don't know why they felt they needed these programs, and we don't know the lives saved from these programs like they do.

I guess I don't really care about how many lives have been saved. Violating the Constitution and the privacy rights of citizens is far more egregious.

Despite their oaths, Snowden has done more to uphold and defend the Constitution than Obama and General Alexander combined. He's no saint, but if he's a "true narcissist" then we're lucky he was narcissistic enough to do what he did.

QFT

 

[GTaudiophile]

The only traitor here is the Untied States government, that treats every citizen as a criminal. Treating everyone as guilty all the time.

According to the interview, and semi verified by NBC snowden did try to go through official channels and got blown off. A result that is too be expected. The people in charge put in these programs, how many of them are going to come out and say they are doing something illegal, or just simply evil? None.

The NSA, CIA, FBI, etc, would never ever have allowed any of the information he released to come to light through official channels. Those fuckers lied in front of congress, and you expect them to take Snowden seriously? He'd probably be dead if he pushed back any more through official channels.

And please point out what harm has happened to the US government? And point out when benefit these programs provide(d)? You cant, why because everything is secret. Talk about an awesome job, you can do whatever you want, and have zero responsibility for the consequences.

QFT

 

[Oldgamer]

Quoted from the interview last night:

As Williams put the question to him, "You hear often in the United States, 'Why doesn't he come home and face the music?' "

"It's a fair question," Snowden said. "But it's also uninformed, because what has been lain against me are not normal charges. They're extraordinary charges. We've seen more charges under the Espionage Act in the last administration than we have in all other administrations in — in Americans history. The Espionage Act provides — anyone accused of it of no chance to make a public defense.

You can't argue to the jury that what you did was in the public interest. You're not even allowed to make that case. They can't hear it. You are not allowed to argue — based on all the evidence in your favor because that evidence may be classified, even if it's exculpatory. And so when people say — "Why don't you go home and face the music?" I say you have to understand that the music is not an open court and a fair trial."

 

[KB]

2. I don't know about what transparency has come of this, but I will say tying our government's hands by releasing classified information to stop them from gathering intelligence on foreign assets to protect our interests is not how to go about "transparency." Your phrasing of it as a "decision," though, implies they had some kind of choice after having some piece of shit like Snowden give every country on the planet information about how we were effectively and unknowingly spying on them.

I don't think Snowdens revelations have tied the governments hands and the spying will not stop. The only person surprised by all of this was Angela Merkel.
In fact many countries already knew we were spying.

Sweden helped us spy.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/sweden-helps-us-spy-on-russia-snowden-leaks-show-20131206-hv4np.html

Britain helped us spy.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/...l-webcam-images-from-millions-of-yahoo-users/

Some believed Germany helped us spy, but there hasn't been confirmation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/w...merkel-government-of-helping-to-spy.html?_r=0

We will still use spyware to spy, we will still read email and phone data. The unspyable methods they had before like person-to-person contact will still be unspyable, but anything we spied on before will still be spied on. Maybe the terrorsist will change their behaviour and use carrior pigeon, but I doubt it.

 

[DCal430]

Was Bradley Manning treated well by our military's judicial system prior to his trial? Snowden was smart to leave the country. I cannot fault him for wanting to have a future.

Snowden wasn't in the military, and will given a respectable civilian trial. A trial by his peers.

 

[KB]

Its ironic that John Kerry called Edward Snowden a traitor. If one man has been called a traitor more than Edward Snowden its John Kerry.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=john+kerry+called+traitor+for+vietnam

I don't know if John Kerry is one, its hard to tell. But even he must realize that when he was protesting the Vietnam war, the president was unable to declare him an enemy combatant, send him to gitmo with no legal council or use a drone to take him out with no trial. Whether Snowden is a traitor or not he was wise to leave the country.

 

[KB]

Snowden wasn't in the military, and will given a respectable civilian trial. A trial by his peers.

Is this sarcasm?

"I think if we had the chance, we would end it very quickly,” [an Army intelligence officer] said. “Just casually walking on the streets of Moscow, coming back from buying his groceries. Going back to his flat and he is casually poked by a passerby. He thinks nothing of it at the time starts to feel a little woozy and thinks it’s a parasite from the local water. He goes home very innocently and next thing you know he dies in the shower.”

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/us-spies-talk-about-killing-snowden-2014-1#ixzz336vjFNRI

 

[Oldgamer]

Snowden wasn't in the military, and will given a respectable civilian trial. A trial by his peers.

No your absolutely wrong.

There is no whistleblower exception in the Espionage Act. So Snowden is not protected and will not get a fair trial for those who don't understand why he hasn't come back yet. At any time they can give him the death penalty, and throw in many other charges. Snowden would not be able to come into court and be allowed to say 'I was justified in disclosing this information'

 

[Oldgamer]

This is Tampa Bay Times Pundit facts and it spells out why Snowden would not have a right to a fair trial or be protected by whistle blower laws.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ald-nsa-leaker-snowden-has-no-whistleblower-/

 

[DCal430]

We already promised no execution, he will be safe if he returns.