Smug guy: "Blowing in NES carts never did anything"

[CZroe]

Here is an interesting question: what exactly do you think blowing on it does? Do you really believe removing some minor amount of dust has a drastic effect? The NES was notorious for it's poor design and bad cartridge contact; they even redesigned it to a top loader to help combat this.

Do you really think that initial blowing vs not blowing has any effect on how well the cartridge is initially seated? I would love to see some real scientific data on this other than "I blew this one and it worked and I didn't blew this one and it didn't. Science! herp a derp".

Do real test cases with thousands of samples done in the exact same manner (meaning, using some kind of machine, not a human) and I'd wager, they failure rate of initial contact is identical. And even that, would be hard to do, as the contacts would wear from such repeated use.

Already answered. It is a combination of at least three effects: removal of particulates, improving conductivity through existing oxidation with condensation, and reseating (not particularly due to being blow). There may be unknown factors, but knowing them is not necessary to prove effectiveness thanks to statistics, which the ones preaching confirmation bias *gasp* DON'T HAVE! I have done an insane amount of undocumented testing and I am ready to set up a double-blind test involving hundreds of game pals the next time I have time off. My "confirmation bias" cannot affect cold hard statistics.

 

[Dranoche]

I remember seeing an article on this a couple years ago. They said that the short term apparent improvements were due to simply taking another shot at getting good contact by removing and reinserting the cartridge, and/or by improved electrical conductivity on the cartridge contacts from the moisture from your breath.

I remember blowing on them and having them work, and I remember it getting worse and worse over time, having less of an effect. Years later after pulling the system back out one day and having some issues I started checking everything more carefully. I noticed some corrosion on the a/v cables. Replaced them, not a single issue since with any cartridge, especially ones which were previously terrible.

 

[CZroe]

This won't work, as the majority of the problems were due to the awful design of the NES and the cartridge not making proper contact. Removing and reinserting, with or without blowing will do the exact same thing. You won't be able to "confirm" this does anything unless you can properly seat the game 100% of the time in the experiment.

Blowing did nothing but remove a little dust.


My NES stopped reading my games unless I had my GameGenie in. So, I left that in once I got a good contact and inserted games in to that.

Your Game Genie made it worse because the tight fit bent the pins even further away. It was a good argument against unlicensed accessories. Also, you say that it will not be testable because it doesn't make proper contact when that's exactly what it is purported to help with. We aren't talking about two different issues here. We are saying that it it notoriously difficult to get a good connection through that bad design and that it is notably easier after blowing. This can be demonstrated, and has been. Being skeptical and pointing out the possibility of confirmation bias is one thing, but ignoring their experience no matter how thorough and dismissing it as confirmation bias without demonstrating it yourself is also, undeniably, confirmation bias.

I'm not the only one with a huge collection. I CHALLENGE someone to statistically prove confirmation bias. I will divide 100 carts into two sets: one that will be blown in and one that will not. The number of attempts before a successful glitch/reset-free boot will be notes for each pak in each set. The number of attempts for each cartridge will be capped at 25. Any game that does not work after 25 tries will be set aside to later confirm if it works at all so that it will not be used to in the statistic if it is not functional. No carts will be cleaned first. The console cartridge connector will be cleaned with a (dry!) official cleaning kit before each attempt. If there truly is no effect then there is a 50/50 chance that either set would have a lower average number of attempts. Even this statistic can be relevant once others repeat the testing methodology.

 

[CZroe]

I remember seeing an article on this a couple years ago. They said that the short term apparent improvements were due to simply taking another shot at getting good contact by removing and reinserting the cartridge, and/or by improved electrical conductivity on the cartridge contacts from the moisture from your breath.

I remember blowing on them and having them work, and I remember it getting worse and worse over time, having less of an effect. Years later after pulling the system back out one day and having some issues I started checking everything more carefully. I noticed some corrosion on the a/v cables. Replaced them, not a single issue since with any cartridge, especially ones which were previously terrible.

LOL! That obviously means that AV cables cause the problem. /confirmationbias

Very few people used composite AV back then.

 

[Ichinisan]

I remember seeing an article on this a couple years ago. They said that the short term apparent improvements were due to simply taking another shot at getting good contact by removing and reinserting the cartridge, and/or by improved electrical conductivity on the cartridge contacts from the moisture from your breath.

That's exactly what they're saying. While removing and re-inserting the game can definitely help in some cases, I've experienced this many NES systems where the system's internal cart connector has reached a certain level of wear and this is the experience:
- Game does not start or graphics are severely glitched.
- Remove / re-insert the cartridge, test again.
- Game still doesn't start or has severely glitched graphics.
- Repeat 1-3 over and over (and over again) for several minutes with no luck.
- Finally give up and blow in the cartridge.
- Game boots up fine.
- Game works for hours and hours until you turn everything off and remove it.

I remember blowing on them and having them work, and I remember it getting worse and worse over time, having less of an effect. Years later after pulling the system back out one day and having some issues I started checking everything more carefully. I noticed some corrosion on the a/v cables. Replaced them, not a single issue since with any cartridge, especially ones which were previously terrible.

It's almost certain that oxidation of the contacts in the system and the game cartridge would be accelerated by the moisture in your breath, but there's absolutely no question that, with many systems at a certain level of wear, blowing in a game very often allows you to play a game that otherwise wouldn't work without cleaning or refurbishing the contacts.

So oxidation might be one reason it gets worse over time, but the most significant factor was the NES system's internal cartridge connector. It loses the springiness that pushes against the game cartridge contacts. I've temporarily refurbished them by bending the pins upward. I've also replaced the connector in my NES twice (cheap and easy). Just like the original connector, the replacements work great for a while and eventually start to degrade (even though sellers often claim that theirs do not).

 

[cmdrdredd]

What I did? Keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol and q-tips handy. Clean the game's contacts on both sides thoroughly before trying it. Done.

 

[CZroe]

What I did? Keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol and q-tips handy. Clean the game's contacts on both sides thoroughly before trying it. Done.

That's what we did too back in the day. Now I use lint-free swabs and 100% pure Isopropyl alcohol, but the collection is large enough that there are games that have not been touched since we obtained them and not nearly everything has been cleaned. It's why I didn't know I was sitting on a prototype Xexyz that I bought over a decade ago (was still in the shrink wrap from Blockbuster Video). The connector still wears out and the connectors still oxidize. We've also made our connector extremely tight and disabled the 10NES lockout chip for even greater success.

Because the vast majority of my collection has not been played or cleaned since being purchased second hand, it's a great set to duplicate the scenario of a user trying to get a random game to work (users have no control over how borrowed, rented, used, etc games were handled prior).

 

[TheSlamma]

This thread delivers. Also in my experience, blowing did seem to help. But honestly, I just don't care that much.

The ONLY good post in this thread

 

[Ichinisan]

First 2 games I tested today...

Tried TMNT2 10 times without blowing and it failed every time.

Gave the cart a good blow and it worked.

Tried SMB3 I-don't-know-how-many-times. Finally blew in it half-heartedly and it didn't work.

Gave it a good blow and it finally worked.

I didn't do a whole lot of tweaking the cartridge after insertion because this is only meant to show if blowing has any effect at all. It does.

 

[VirtualLarry]

My NES stopped reading my games unless I had my GameGenie in. So, I left that in once I got a good contact and inserted games in to that.

That's because the angle that the GameGenie plugs in, actually physically damages the NES upon insertion, and thus, afterwards, carts won't make good contact, unless you leave the GameGenie in.

 

[smackababy]

First 2 games I tested today...

Tried TMNT2 10 times without blowing and it failed every time.

Gave the cart a good blow and it worked.

Tried SMB3 I-don't-know-how-many-times. Finally blew in it half-heartedly and it didn't work.

Gave it a good blow and it finally worked.

I didn't do a whole lot of tweaking the cartridge after insertion because this is only meant to show if blowing has any effect at all. It does.

Here is something you aren't going to like: prove it was the act of blowing and not the reinsertion that had the effect.

Here is another thing I'd like you to explain: if the humidity from your breath is what is allowing the better contact, why then when the humidity evaporates does the game not glitch, similar to how games with bad contact start up?

 

[CZroe]

Here is something you aren't going to like: prove it was the act of blowing and not the reinsertion that had the effect.

Here is another thing I'd like you to explain: if the humidity from your breath is what is allowing the better contact, why then when the humidity evaporates does the game not glitch, similar to how games with bad contact start up?

He is proving it slowly with statistics as long as he isn't excluding attempts that do not fit his theory.

If it takes average X number of times for a successful boot without blowing and takes consistently less attempts (X-Y average) with blowing, you have evidence. If Y is too great to be a statistical anomaly and is repeatable with different data sets, you have proof. After 10 tries it is just as likely to take 10 more tries if all things are equal. If it takes less after blowing, you have proof. Remember: the people blowing often did it from the start. They didn't resort to it only after trying a ridiculous number of times without blowing. If it didn't work at all without blowing and consistently works only after blowing, you have something.

If you think that it worked by chance the 11th or 12th time when he finally resorted to it then, let me ask: what if he tried it a truly ridiculous number of times, like 50, or 300 an, once again, could consistently show that it didn't work until he blew? Are you saying that he should try his luck in Vegas or do you acknowledge that the chance that he would chose to blow only just before the one time it worked is increasingly unlikely to be luck?

If it didn't work after 10 tries without blowing then the chances of it working with blowing should also be less than 1 in 10. There should be an equal chance that it will continue another 10 times.

 

[Ichinisan]

Here is something you aren't going to like: prove it was the act of blowing and not the reinsertion that had the effect.

Did you not see that TMNT2 was removed and reinserted 10 times without blowing and it failed every time?

The only "proof" I can provide is statistics. That's all you're going to get.

Here is another thing I'd like you to explain: if the humidity from your breath is what is allowing the better contact, why then when the humidity evaporates does the game not glitch, similar to how games with bad contact start up?

That has always been the question, hasn't it? I'd speculate that the contacts form some kind of bond that persists through the particulates and oxidation/corrosion.

All I can say is that there *is* an immediate effect for *many* systems. For many people, it's not "all in our heads." The guy concluded incorrectly that it was "confirmation bias," but he used confirmation bias to reach that conclusion.

 

[smackababy]

Did you not see that TMNT2 was removed and reinserted 10 times without blowing and it failed every time?

The only "proof" I can provide is statistics. That's all you're going to get.



That has always been the question, hasn't it? I'd speculate that the contacts form some kind of bond that persists through the particulates and oxidation/corrosion.

All I can say is that there *is* an immediate effect for *many* systems. For many people, it's not "all in our heads." The guy concluded incorrectly that it was "confirmation bias," but he used confirmation bias to reach that conclusion.

The problem is you didn't "prove" anything. You changed two variables (reseating the cartridge AND addition of blowing) and concluded the effective change was only the blowing. It could have been the reseating, but we don't know. If you had enough data of cartridges blown on every time with a failure rate AND a control of cartridges never blown on, simply reseated. You might have more compelling evidence. However, you don't have that. You only have a few examples and are claiming it is making a huge difference.

I understand you don't have time to document a few thousand tries over the a number of cartridges, but that is the only real way to make any informed conclusion.

My hypothesis is simply that it has zero actual short term effects (either positive or negative) and damages the carts long term.

 

[Ichinisan]

The problem is you didn't "prove" anything. You changed two variables (reseating the cartridge AND addition of blowing) and concluded the effective change was only the blowing.

Wrong. Did you notice how I removed the cartridge completely and re-inserted it each time I counted?

I'll address the rest of your post when I'm not stuck in a drive-through.

[edit]

... It could have been the reseating, but we don't know. If you had enough data of cartridges blown on every time with a failure rate AND a control of cartridges never blown on, simply reseated. You might have more compelling evidence. However, you don't have that. You only have a few examples and are claiming it is making a huge difference.

I understand you don't have time to document a few thousand tries over the a number of cartridges, but that is the only real way to make any informed conclusion.

My hypothesis is simply that it has zero actual short term effects (either positive or negative) and damages the carts long term.

Let's keep testing.

 

[Ichinisan]

My hypothesis is simply that it has zero actual short term effects (either positive or negative)

Do what Mr. Smug did: Use confirmation bias to prove it.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I blew in my carts specifically to ruin them; I was hopeful that if I blew in just the right spot, I could knock out some of the more annoying parts of a game. "Let's just spit on this a little and end Oddjob in multiplayer once and for all..."

 

[cmdrdredd]

Why does this even matter in the day when you put in a blu-ray and it works every time(if the drive isn't bad)?

 

[Ichinisan]

An interesting day today. I tried about 10 games and, except for one of them, my NES played practically every game on the first or second try -- without blowing at all. Even games that wouldn't work after 20+ tries yesterday worked on the first try today.

As I was writing this post, I was quite pleased with the thought that my NES is working so much better now. Then I thought of something:

You know what condition might affect this? Perhaps it's the variable humidity in the air. That's no confirmation, I know. Right now I just can't get any game to give me a hard time.

 

[CZroe]

Ah, Thanksgiving. FINALLY! A day off to spend with the family dig up some NES dupes from the collection and record some video for statistics.

For this session we selected two of each title and only attempted each ONCE, blowing in only one of each title and leaving the other alone ("stale"). That's 24 titles, 48 game paks, simple pass/fail with no reseating what-so-ever (the crux of the confirmation bias argument). A "0/0" means that both the stale and the blown in copy failed to boot first try. A "0/1" indicates that only the blown copy booted first try. A "1/0" indicates that only the stale copy booted first try. "1/1" means they both worked first try.

0/1 Castlevania
0/1 The Legend of Zelda
1/1 Super Mario Bros.
1/1 Metroid
0/0 Golf
1/1 Dragon Warrior
0/0 Gyromite
1/1 Batman
1/1 Duck Hunt
0/1 Kid Icarus
0/0 Dr. Mario
1/1 Tetris
1/1 Faxandu
0/1 Little Nemo Dream Master
1/1 Spy Hunter
0/1 Track & Field II
0/0 Mickey Mousecapade
0/1 Top Gun
0/1 Galaga
0/0 Ghost 'N Goblins
0/0 Ivan "Ironman" Stewart's Super Off-Road
0/1 Blades of Steel
0/1 Rygar
1/0 WWF Wrestlemania

6 cases where neither worked (0/0)
9 cases where only the copy blown into worked (0/1)
1 case where only the stale copy worked (1/0)
8 cases where both worked (1/1)

As you can see, if we dismiss the results where nothing changes (0/0, 1/1), the relevant results are 9 to 1 in favor of blowing. Only one title set worked without blowing and failed when blown and it was the very last game tested. With a sample size of 48 game paks, we have a clear trend developing. We may be out of dupes but we can test hundreds of random carts the same way to easily show that the trend continues as the sample size increases. Because we would be dismissing same-title comparative statistics, the results we dismissed would be relevant (some successes could potentially be from blowing, for example).

If you don't want to compare pass/fail by title, then we have 17 pass first try when blown versus 9 which passed first try without being blown. Keep in mind that this NES has had the 10NES chip disabled which GREATLY increases success for all cartridges. If blowing actually does improve chances for a good connection on all pins then this modification will make the possible improvements from blowing LESS noticeable. If there is a positive effect from blowing then disabling the 10NES lockout chip should not be needed as often for the blown cartridges, but even so we still see an 89% greater success rate for cartridges which were blown in! This is a significant difference even considering the sample size.

While there can obviously be out-right fraud, with this testing methodology there can be no accidental confirmation bias. You can attribute it to randomness (FLUKE!) but I will point out that the deviation would skew 50/50 across multiple tests with much slighter deviations so I will ask that you show a contradictory data set. I will also increase the sample set with further random testing. Go ahead and accuse me of fraudulently cleaning only one set but I will insist that none of the game paks were cleaned prior to testing and none have been cleaned for years (if ever). The only deliberate selection for which game pak went in which stack was Super Off-Road when we noticed electrical tape crammed along the edge connector. We deliberately placed it in the "blow" pile, so that it would work AGAINST confirmation bias for the outcome we expected (and observed anyway). Mickey Mousecapade was NOT a title I had possibly blown in to test recently despite wondering that in the video. When assembling sets I collected three copies and, like all titles where I had three or more copies, I deliberately used ones that were in storage as opposed to using the accessible one that could have been cleaned, blown in, tested, or played in past years. I started two piles so that titles which were blown in for recent testing would go in the blow pile in case of a residual effect. Those would be from my accessible shelf copies, but they were gradually eliminated from the set as I found third and fourth dupes or removed if I did not find a second copy. Neither Off-Road nor Mickey title sets worked anyway (all failed with and without blowing), so they did not skew the results toward my expectations.

By the way: you guys owe us a new power button! We wore it out with all our testing. It randomly felt "crunchy" the last time we tested a ton of carts hundreds of times and it failed to power up once during this session.

Video coming soon. I started recording after my brother so I missed the first couple games. I'm waiting on his video but I didn't wait to tally the results.

Edit: http://youtu.be/36uocRNwLnw

My brother still hasn't uploaded the complete video but I figured I'd go ahead and put up my late-start video.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I don't know if it did anything or not but it seemed like it did. What I find more interesting is that it seems like everyone knew to use this method. How did we all come to the same conclusion? Nintendo Power?

 

[HeXen]

I always figured blowing in it increases moisture to the contacts which help them all make contact.
However, whether it really did any good or not is irrelevant since you were going to exhale that air anyway.

 

[Subyman]

Always worked for me.

 

[CZroe]

OK, I'm going to go ahead and post my late-start video since my brother hasn't posted the full video yet:
http://youtu.be/36uocRNwLnw

 

[mmntech]

I don't know if it did anything or not but it seemed like it did. What I find more interesting is that it seems like everyone knew to use this method. How did we all come to the same conclusion? Nintendo Power?

I found at least one person who didn't. Had an intern once who was dragging an XLR cable through the snow. Got it all caked inside the connector. Was cold and dry enough, so I told him just to blow it out. He proceeded to stick it in his mouth, and starts sucking it out. I have never face palmed harder in my life. Funny thing is, he wasn't that young to have never seen a game cartridge before. Hell, even the teenagers I mentor in A/V get it.

This is the stuff I use for cleaning cartridges. Not only cleans but prevents corrosion and lubricates. Carts slide in smooth as butter without gumming anything up or limiting conductivity.
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/contact-cleaners/super-contact-cleaner-with-ppe-801b/