The original line from ancient hebrew said "thou shall not murder." Them Christians are poor translators.
The original line from ancient hebrew said "thou shall not murder." Them Christians are poor translators.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
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1. You, nor I, have the authority to put someone to death, except in immediate self-defense.
2. Yes, there has. There are numerous sources where you can find listings of confirmed innocent people who have been executed.
3. Punishment is useless, and very 'old testament'. What net benefit accrues to society from punishing criminals? There are two legitmate goals of a prison system: public protection, and rehabilitation. Those who can't be rehabilitated, can stay in prison.
'Deterrent' is a common argument for capital punishment; i.e. that it 'sets an example'. That is why I mentioned it. Well, from all available data, it does not provide a deterrent to would-be murderers.
How many of them were executed? None. The death penalty system worked. We give people enough time to appeal.
So again. We have a person on death row but he had enough time before execution that they could make a movie about him and he could get exonerated. Sounds again that the death penalty system worked.
The problem you are agruing against is the criminal justice system but you are pretending that the same things wouldn't happen if they were only sentenced to life in jail. Would Randell Adams' story be less tragic to you if he was falsely convicted and sentenced to life in prison? Would they even have made a movie about him if he wasn't on death row? He is probably better off for getting sentenced to death instead of life in prison because if he only received a life sentence he still might be rotting in jail.
Zebo
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3chordcharlie
Vengance is a powerful emotion I don't know we can just dismiss as "old testament" dogma. I don't think it's civilized once you have the party in custody and under control but I'd feel it if someone close to me was savagely murdered. Must put yourself in those victims shoes too.
I'm Capital Punishment opposed only because of error, not any kind of hope for rehab, which I don't believe in once you've gone beyond the pale (1st degree murder)
Vengance is a powerful emotion I don't know we can just dismiss as "old testament" dogma. I don't think it's civilized once you have the party in custody and under control but I'd feel it if someone close to me was savagely murdered. Must put yourself in those victims shoes too.
I'm Capital Punishment opposed only because of error, not any kind of hope for rehab, which I don't believe in once you've gone beyond the pale (1st degree murder)
1) We as a society have the right to put murderers to death. That is the law. You might not like it but that is our law.
2) Show me one. I bet you can't because there hasn't been a case of an innocent person put to death.
3) punishment isn't useless. It brings closure to the families of the murdered. Attempting to rehab, on the hand, is worthless, especially in the case of a murderer. What's the point of trying to rehab someone who has a life sentence?
Deterrence is a ridiculous arguement. A murderer isn't a normal person (if murder were normal the murder rate would be in the millions). What would deter you or I isn't going to deter a murderer from murdering.
Zebo
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How do you know?
Even sitting judges like the book I linked and here http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2000/tows_past_20000928_e.jhtml
have serious doubts about people they had executed. It's only recently, and only cases where DNA is present and allowed to appeal are we finding hundreds of men exonerated that would have been put down in the old days without this new technology. So I have no doubt innocents have been killed. DNA was'nt around back when to exonerate. DNA is still only avail in a minority of cases even so. I'll go look for the names of cases where they have put innocents down, but surly you can see the poor math is there.
How many of them were executed? None. The death penalty system worked. We give people enough time to appeal.
[/quote]
OK, then if you were a prosecutor, you would have no trouble staking your life on the complete infallibility of the system? I would propose that, in the event an executed individual is later exonerated of his crimes, the prosecuting attorney should suffer the same fate. Since we have never executed an innocent person, I expect our judicial system will have no problem with this being implemented immediately. I would further expect death penalty convictions to continue unabated.
[/quote]
3) It isn't supposed to be a detterent. It is supposed to be punishment, hence the term capital punishment. This is the biggest nonsense argument you can make. You can just as easily be against jailing people because evidence shows that it isn't a deterrent. So what?!? Should we argue that you shouldn't jail people because it isn't a deterrent?
[/quote]
So, the purpose of the death penalty is solely punishment for the crime? I don't want to downgrade society's, and especially the victim's family's, need for justice and closure, but is this really worth the risk of killing another innocent person? Is it worth potentially putting another family through the same pain and loss as the victim's to sate our desire for "justice"?
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
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Well, you've misrepresented my argument about protection and rehabilitation. I guess I can stop there as you either don't understand it, or refuse to admit that you understand it.
There have been innocent people executed in the united states (and elsewhere), in modern time (the best estimate seems to be around 74 since 1976). You can find hundreds of sources for this claim, in a few minutes, with supporting links originating from government sources.
I'm aware that the law says you can execute people: that isn't the same as legitimate authority. My belief is that a priori from a simple perspective of rights, this authority can be ruled out. Punishment and 'repayment' are questionnable concepts in and of themselves. Vengeance is even less defensible.
However, it is possible to reject this position, taken on its own, which is why I pointed out that the punishment is both considerably more 'fallible' than incarceration, and does not have its desired effect. Therefore even if you consider it acceptable in an abstract sense, it is both error-prone and ineffective.
That's a pretty bold statement:
Some Highly Questionable Cases
Another Link
Another One
Here's Some More Info
Info with less detail
Now "proving" innocence may just as difficult as proving guilt, especially since there is no compelling reason for the judicial system to attempt to exonerate a dead person. However, I would say there is a high degree of certainty that at least one of these cases was a wrongful execution. There is certainly reasonable doubt in virtually every one of the cases listed under the first two sections of the first link. How we can move forward with an execution when there is any doubt about guilt, whatsoever, is beyond me.
No, it wouldn't be less tragic. He spent almost 10 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. For a case which came down completely his word against that of another. And the word of the other person was only preferred by the prosecutor because he could get a 'death penalty conviction' with Adams that he couldn't get with the other person. Even though the other person had stolen the car, stolen the murder weapon and had had several run ins with the law. And since he was left on the street, he killed another person, too.
The problem is that at least with life w/o parole vs. the death penalty the mistake can be recognized and the wrongly convicted can be released. It's kind of hard to do that once you've executed them.
And please explain to me how the system worked. He spent 10 years of his life in prison because of the poor judgment and lofty self image of the prosecution team. Would you be willing to give up 10 years of your life because someone wanted to add another death sentence to their belt?
As far as how much better off he was because he was sentenced to death and that allowed the people who made the documentary to find out about and be interested in him, wtf are smoking? There aren't enough people doing documentaries about death row inmates to correct all of the issues. He was LUCKY that the producers of the film heard about his case and decided to investigate it through the production of the film. Those 20+ death row inmates in Illinois who were exonerated by DNA evidence three years ago didn't have anyone writing documentaries about their cases. They didn't have an appeal accepted allowing DNA testing to possibly absolve their guilt. No, they got LUCKY that the then governor decided to review all of the death row cases and apply DNA evidence where it hadn't been applied or wasn't available before to test the accuracy of the convictions. The 20% fallout was a total shock. So much so that he commuted the sentences of all the rest to life w/o parole.
Like the person above, I believe that there are some crimes for which execution is a fully merited penalty. But until we can insure that no innocent person will have to face that penalty, I can't support it. And we've certainly shown, repeatedly, that innocent people are convicted of serious crimes.
Ethel Rosenberg. She was convicted of typing her husbands communications to the Russians and therefore being an accomplice. She was convicted on the testimony of her brother. All indications are that it was actually her brother's wife who was typing those communications and he fingered his sister to save his wife. Look it up.
?Some men, probably, abstain from murder because they fear that if they committed murder they would be hanged. Hundreds of thousands abstain from it because they regard it with horror. One great reason why they regard it with horror is because murderers are hanged.?
Sir James Fitzjames Stephen
Sir James Fitzjames Stephen
Shuxclams
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My personal feeling is Capitol Punishment can be a good thing. Yes there are many 'checks and balances' and some innocent people end up dying. Here in California the appeals process is so lengthy that nobody is ever actually put to death. I think that is the frustration that many people feel. I think the conviction for punishable crimes should be reduced to crimes that can be proven more clearly than First Degree with premeditation or special circumstances.
For instance;
Child Molesters convicted twice should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
Rapist convicted twice should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a gun is discharged in commiting the crime and hit a person, whether they die or not they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a person is killed with a gun while commiting a crime they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a murder is commited for profit or gain they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If the crime causes more than 10 million dollars in damage to share holders or the general public, they should be put to death without lengthy appeals and their estate should be used to fund public works and work-fare programs.
Not capitol punishment related but since we are talking 'cost', how about make all prisons self reliant, meaning grow their own food, create their own power, make their own clothes and any excesses are sold to pay for the staff.
Obviously I care very little for the rights of persons who disregard other peoples lives and property. Having known many criminals I can honestly say more are not worth spending time and money on. Sure there are exceptions, matter of fact I am freinds with a man who blew another mans head off over some cocaine, he served his time and is a stand up member of society today, but I still feel the same regardless of that fact.
SHUX
For instance;
Child Molesters convicted twice should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
Rapist convicted twice should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a gun is discharged in commiting the crime and hit a person, whether they die or not they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a person is killed with a gun while commiting a crime they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If a murder is commited for profit or gain they should be put to death without lengthy appeals.
If the crime causes more than 10 million dollars in damage to share holders or the general public, they should be put to death without lengthy appeals and their estate should be used to fund public works and work-fare programs.
Not capitol punishment related but since we are talking 'cost', how about make all prisons self reliant, meaning grow their own food, create their own power, make their own clothes and any excesses are sold to pay for the staff.
Obviously I care very little for the rights of persons who disregard other peoples lives and property. Having known many criminals I can honestly say more are not worth spending time and money on. Sure there are exceptions, matter of fact I am freinds with a man who blew another mans head off over some cocaine, he served his time and is a stand up member of society today, but I still feel the same regardless of that fact.
SHUX
Zebo
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Rape + CP? Sorry Shux but punishment does'nt fit the crime. Even child molestation is pushing it since children have recanted testimony later in life and are easily swayed by Social workers. And theft is way out there.
You go way past eye for an eye into eye for a lie, ever heard of date rape?
You go way past eye for an eye into eye for a lie, ever heard of date rape?
Shuxclams
Diamond Member
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I think someone who can be convicted twice of such an absolute violation of everything decent and destroyer of innocent lives need not be kept around to do it again. I have seen too many peoples lives destroyed by both, including my sister... As I said, its my opinion, and you know as well as I what they say about opinions.
SHUX
Zebo
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That's cool. Justice has different meaning to people like I said earlier. I can understand emotions of victimization...thank god we have impartial judges/legislatures deciding these things or pretty soon cutting someone off would be executable offense.. heck it happens in LA about 6x a year already.
I remeber when I went over to my godfathers house after he was almost beaten to death, tied up, over 300 stiches and staples, robbed etc.. I definity wanted to kill the perp, still do.:| But the court said 10 yrs for the guy.
I remeber when I went over to my godfathers house after he was almost beaten to death, tied up, over 300 stiches and staples, robbed etc.. I definity wanted to kill the perp, still do.:| But the court said 10 yrs for the guy.
3chordcharlie
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SHUX - that's an interesting list, but it doesn't change the fact that 'conviction' is fallible; you simply can't fix a system whose biggest potential flaw is executing someone for a crime they didn't commit, by removing appeal rights. Even for repeat offenders; because they did it last time is not a valid reason to assume they did it this time (that's why testimony about prior accusations/convictions is always subject to argumentation from defence attorneys; they can often demonstrate that it will create an unfair bias among jury members).
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