You may save yourself a buck too if you shoot the meter reader. We are not animals who think only of cost. We are ethical human beings, some of us that is, who will go the extra mile to insure justice. Money is worthless compared to self respect.
Don't get me wrong: I believe that death is a just punishment for some crimes. I just question our competence to mete it out. In my mind, even one innocent person condemned to die by the state is an unforgiveable atrocity. As distasteful as it may be, I would prefer the worst offenders known to man remain among the living than see someone wrongly deprived of life by the state. That is why I am anti-death penalty. If our system was foolproof regarding wrongful conviction, I might feel otherwise. But I might also be a vengeful bastard 
.
Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
.Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
judasmachine
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2002
- 8,515
- 3
- 81
The thing that I do not understand is this.
In the bible it plainly states "thou shalt not kill" One of the ten commandments.
How in the world can someone who bases their morality on Christian values be Pro Life and Pro Capitol Punishment ???
Just does not make sense to me...What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
In the bible it plainly states "thou shalt not kill" One of the ten commandments.
How in the world can someone who bases their morality on Christian values be Pro Life and Pro Capitol Punishment ???
Just does not make sense to me...What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Because one can just as easily pull a different line from the Bible that says the exact opposite. The Bible contradicts itself on many points quite nicely, and you shouldn't waste your time asking why Christians can feel justified doing this or that... they can because they are Christians.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
That should result in a much more 'perfect' system WRT errors... why not just have justice in the street? You phone in a tip, and the cops will go shoot whoever you finger?
Originally posted by: jer0608
Don't get me wrong: I believe that death is a just punishment for some crimes. I just question our competence to mete it out. In my mind, even one innocent person condemned to die by the state is an unforgiveable atrocity. As distasteful as it may be, I would prefer the worst offenders known to man remain among the living than see someone wrongly deprived of life by the state. That is why I am anti-death penalty. If our system was foolproof regarding wrongful conviction, I might feel otherwise. But I might also be a vengeful bastard
Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
I believe that we had an example of just that sort of consideration in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. The guy was going up for life for rape. He had time to think it over in the cell and figured that for the same penalty he could kill some deputies and the judge. Debate that!
That sort of is the way most cities do child abuse, isn't it? A blind call and the cops take care of the rest. I like it!
Read your list. Japan allows the death penalty. So does Singapore. So does South Korea. So does Taiwan. There are others, too.
Of course you're probably one of those people who think that a country of majority 'undesirables' can never have what is commonly referred to nowadays as a first world country.
Additionally, I would object to many European countries being considered as not allowing the death penalty. They routinely deport refugees to their deaths, which in my view is basically the same as a death penalty. They just want to execute undesirables. It's just like saying some of those countries abolished slavery by citing their laws regarding it when in fact they didn't stop practicing until the 20th century.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,823
- 6,368
- 126
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: jer0608
Don't get me wrong: I believe that death is a just punishment for some crimes. I just question our competence to mete it out. In my mind, even one innocent person condemned to die by the state is an unforgiveable atrocity. As distasteful as it may be, I would prefer the worst offenders known to man remain among the living than see someone wrongly deprived of life by the state. That is why I am anti-death penalty. If our system was foolproof regarding wrongful conviction, I might feel otherwise. But I might also be a vengeful bastard
Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
I believe that we had an example of just that sort of consideration in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. The guy was going up for life for rape. He had time to think it over in the cell and figured that for the same penalty he could kill some deputies and the judge. Debate that!
:roll:
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Not without an actual legal process after; it's one thing to accept tips and treat them seriously, it's quite another to execute someone using an abbreviated legal processd designed to maximize the number of executions, guilt or innocence notwithstanding.
Yeah, I missed Japan and Korea. I apologize, but i scrolled through the names quite fast.
The point is: have a look at that list of names you provided... USA, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan. Then take a sociology book about comparative law systems and start reading why the process toward abolishment of death penalty is much longer in eastern countries.
Also is interesting that you think I consider immigrants "undesirables", expecially because I am myself an immigrant
Even more: I would like to see one day the complete lack of immigration barriers, the free circulation of people, goods and ideas is one of the most important targets every free and illuministic society should pursue.Regards
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: jer0608
Don't get me wrong: I believe that death is a just punishment for some crimes. I just question our competence to mete it out. In my mind, even one innocent person condemned to die by the state is an unforgiveable atrocity. As distasteful as it may be, I would prefer the worst offenders known to man remain among the living than see someone wrongly deprived of life by the state. That is why I am anti-death penalty. If our system was foolproof regarding wrongful conviction, I might feel otherwise. But I might also be a vengeful bastard
Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
I believe that we had an example of just that sort of consideration in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. The guy was going up for life for rape. He had time to think it over in the cell and figured that for the same penalty he could kill some deputies and the judge. Debate that!
:roll:
Not only that, but the only reason he gave himself up was in fear of the death penalty. He wanted to avoid it after he had time to think about what he had done. Too bad he didn't realize they would make an exception for him before.
1. You wouldn't know reality if it bit you in the ass.
2. When a person wouldn't know reality if it bit them in the ass, any absurdity they latch onto as a substitute reality automatically assumes the iconic ascended rank of "Fundamentals" not requiring proof. That is because what one blows out ones ass has no logical support and is unarguable in intelligent company.
3. If you can't make a case for yourself, you have none. You are merely expressing an ignorant opinion and slapping a reality label on it.
4. If you have no self respect, you will not recognize that treating human beings according to a financial balance sheet is the mark of an un-evolved savage. We can only hope you find a world in which your kind applies you level of evolution to you. You may learn a lesson in justice and compassion, perhaps, when you are executed for double parking.
Capital punishment is not exclusively for punishing the criminal, but to protect soceity and to give a sense of closure to a community.
Capital punishment isn't the worlds greatest deterrent, but it is the ultimate one, in that once applied, there are no recidivists.....
Capital punishment isn't the worlds greatest deterrent, but it is the ultimate one, in that once applied, there are no recidivists.....
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
To be christian means to hold the new testament in higher regard than the old testament, which means do not take an eye for an eye, which means no death penalty.
There are no legitimate studies that suggest capital punishment is a beneficial deterrent (not sure what "ultimate deterrent" means if its not a deterrent to begin with), and society can be protected with life in prison. Some regard that as too expensive, but in doing so put a price on life, which contrary to new testament values. In regard to getting "closure", it also shouldn't be sought at the expense of the values in the new testament, from a christian perspective that is.
A christian that is pro-death penalty is blasphemous in the least imo.
There are no legitimate studies that suggest capital punishment is a beneficial deterrent (not sure what "ultimate deterrent" means if its not a deterrent to begin with), and society can be protected with life in prison. Some regard that as too expensive, but in doing so put a price on life, which contrary to new testament values. In regard to getting "closure", it also shouldn't be sought at the expense of the values in the new testament, from a christian perspective that is.
A christian that is pro-death penalty is blasphemous in the least imo.
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: jer0608
Don't get me wrong: I believe that death is a just punishment for some crimes. I just question our competence to mete it out. In my mind, even one innocent person condemned to die by the state is an unforgiveable atrocity. As distasteful as it may be, I would prefer the worst offenders known to man remain among the living than see someone wrongly deprived of life by the state. That is why I am anti-death penalty. If our system was foolproof regarding wrongful conviction, I might feel otherwise. But I might also be a vengeful bastard
Regarding the deterrence argument, do people honestly believe that a significant number of those who commit these heinous acts consider punishment prior to committing them? Do you believe that these deviant individuals do a sophisticated cost-benefit analysis before they, say, kill that cop? Do you believe they conclude that the possibility of life in prison is a definite go for the nun shooting spree, but the death penalty means I'll stay at home and watch Dr. Phil? Personally, I believe that most murders are either not thought out at all or committed by individuals so twisted that the thought of punishment only enters into their decision making process as they make plans not to get caught. I find it hard to swallow that the dealth penalty makes a real difference in violent crime rates.
I believe that we had an example of just that sort of consideration in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. The guy was going up for life for rape. He had time to think it over in the cell and figured that for the same penalty he could kill some deputies and the judge. Debate that!
:roll:
Not only that, but the only reason he gave himself up was in fear of the death penalty. He wanted to avoid it after he had time to think about what he had done. Too bad he didn't realize they would make an exception for him before.
The key words are "significant number" and "most".
I would hate to generalize based on this single event. If you know of other studies/incidents that back up the deterrence position, I would like to hear about them. I would be willing to admit that I am wrong, but not based on this case alone.
On another note, I am not completely convinced this case illustrates your point, but I may not up to speed on the event in question. My understanding was that the suspect overpowered the 50+ year old grandmother who was escorting him. That situation suggests a crime of opportunity with a primary motive of escape rather than maximizing the crime he could get away with.
Quote:
"He had time to think it over in the cell and figured that for the same penalty he could kill some deputies and the judge."
Did he admit to this or is it supposition?
Georgia has the death penalty, no? If so, it obviously didn't deter this guy.
Quote:
"...the only reason he gave himself up was in fear of the death penalty. He wanted to avoid it after he had time to think about what he had done."
Again, this suggests it didn't enter his mind before the crime and was not a deterrent.
Let me clarify a tad: Capital punishment has NO recidivism, and NO escaping...ergo NO possibly way to repeat an offense of any kind (you're dead after all) therefore it is the "ultimate" in deterrence.
As far as a price on life, I value life of all kinds......I'm more concerned that these individuals can and do escape and may cause carnage (again). If there is no hope to return the individual to soceity after paying for the crime, then why keep the person alive? Even the Catholic Church has provisions for this in their faith. They have a guideline for non-repentant violent criminals that refuse to consider their eternal soul. The person must also be a grave risk to the community if he/she escapes. In these extremely rare cases, the Catholic Church will support Capital Punishment.
I put my views like this: If you have a huge Ape that has a defective brain, but is nonetheless quite dangerous, having a taste for human flesh, and that Ape has escaped several times to repeat his deeds, and even returned from the rain forest after being sent there, just to eat tourists, do you lock it up or put it down? The same with rabid dogs? What about a non-repentant criminal who denies Christ, and worships Lucifer? Should you be selective? Should all be put down, or risk the communtiy? What's your choice? I choose death in all examples above.
What about a murderer who is very sorry and cooperative in prison? Who by all accounts is working on changing to be socially acceptable? So long as the community accepts the decision, I choose life.
Death should be for extreme cases, not as a punishment, but as a solution.
A real IQ is judged by the ability to express complex ideas in simplistic terms, not the ability to express simple ideas in complex terms. I really stuck a pin in your butt, didn't I?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter