Shader model 3.0 (a civilized discussion)

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Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I still want to see a game exploit the other two features the 6800 series brought. Geometry instancing and displacement mapping. Displacement mapping seems to be very intense, so a game that makes heavy use of it probably wouldn't run very well... but I'd love to see an RTS put a relatively large amount of crap on the screen at once.

Far Cry (with the 1.3 patch) uses geometry instancing (at least to some extent) on both the GF6800 and the RX800 cards (via SM2.0b). I believe they use it for the grass/plants in the jungle scenes. It helps performance somewhat, but not in a dramatic fashion.

Geometry instancing mostly reduces the amount of on-card RAM that is used up if you have many copies of the same model. In some cases, this can help performance, but the card still has to draw the objects on-screen; it doesn't magically increase your fillrate or bandwidth.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I still want to see a game exploit the other two features the 6800 series brought. Geometry instancing and displacement mapping. Displacement mapping seems to be very intense, so a game that makes heavy use of it probably wouldn't run very well... but I'd love to see an RTS put a relatively large amount of crap on the screen at once.

Far Cry (with the 1.3 patch) uses geometry instancing (at least to some extent) on both the GF6800 and the RX800 cards (via SM2.0b). I believe they use it for the grass/plants in the jungle scenes. It helps performance somewhat, but not in a dramatic fashion.

Geometry instancing mostly reduces the amount of on-card RAM that is used up if you have many copies of the same model. In some cases, this can help performance, but the card still has to draw the objects on-screen; it doesn't magically increase your fillrate or bandwidth.

I know. I want to see it demonstrated though. Like put 1,000 models in one scene or somethin like that.
 

BrokenVisage

Lifer
Jan 29, 2005
24,771
14
81
I still find it funny how the OP's topic says "a civilized discussion" yet for the summary he puts "and why it is good". We all know you're at the top of a list labeled "the biggest SM3.0 fanboi's on Anand" hans.. so don't go and say "a civilized discussion" when all you really want to do is justify a $75+ premium for a slightly better shader model, something ordinary gamers don't even give two shits about.
 

trinibwoy

Senior member
Apr 29, 2005
317
3
81
Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
I still find it funny how the OP's topic says "a civilized discussion" yet for the summary he puts "and why it is good". We all know you're at the top of a list labeled "the biggest SM3.0 fanboi's on Anand" hans.. so don't go and say "a civilized discussion" when all you really want to do is justify a $75+ premium for a slightly better shader model, something ordinary gamers don't even give two shits about.

And you are contributing to the "civilized discussion" by posting that? What's this universal $75 premium you're talking about. I didn't know all 6800's were $75 more than the competing ATI cards! :Q
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
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Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
I still find it funny how the OP's topic says "a civilized discussion" yet for the summary he puts "and why it is good". We all know you're at the top of a list labeled "the biggest SM3.0 fanboi's on Anand" hans.. so don't go and say "a civilized discussion" when all you really want to do is justify a $75+ premium for a slightly better shader model, something ordinary gamers don't even give two shits about.

You say, something "ordinary gamers don't even give two shits about." And, why is that? Nor do ordinary gamers want their games to run like shit. All he's trying to do is raise awareness of SM3.0 for budget-conscious (ordinary?) gamers. Say an ordinary gamer updates his card every five years. He doesn't know whether to pick the 6600GT SM3.0 card or the 9800 PRO SM2.0 card. Hence the point of this thread. Your conclusion is that we are fanboys of SM3.0 because it is the more value-oriented solution (in some scenarios). Who said this was just between the X800XL and 6800GT? Nobody. It sounds like you're inferring SM3.0 is useless by using just the "X800XL vs. 6800GT" example, of which it may not be useless in certain situations, anyway. I wish people would think before they post, and stop jumping to conclusions of how said technology is useless. :confused:
 

SneakyStuff

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2004
4,294
0
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I don't know why this thread was even brought back, if you have SM3.0 thats great, if you don't, that's great too. By the time games that can fully take advantage of SM3.0 come out (such as the new Unreal engine) you're going to need a new graphics card anyway. SM3.0 will be great, but it's not needed now, it's more of a bonus if you've got it. My 2 cents.
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
14
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Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
I don't know why this thread was even brought back, if you have SM3.0 thats great, if you don't, that's great too. By the time games that can fully take advantage of SM3.0 come out (such as the new Unreal engine) you're going to need a new graphics card anyway. SM3.0 will be great, but it's not needed now, it's more of a bonus if you've got it. My 2 cents.

my look on it as well. Now is not the time that it matters
 

CaiNaM

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
3,718
0
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too much stupidity in this thread...

is there such a thing as futureproof? not in video cards. if you're willing to sacrifice enuff (resolution, image quality, etc), people are still managing just fine with their geforce3/radeon 8500.

bottom line is a mid range card now (6600gt) is a low end card in a year or so. as good as the 9800pro/xt was in it's 'heyday', today's mid-range card is a better overall performer.

is sm3 a good thing? sure... but do we need it it's not really implemented at ths time, and in reality by the time it is, the whole spec only allows for a couple things not possible in sm2.x..... there simply is not the difference as there was from sm1 to sm2. if anything, history has shown us - hell, PROVEN, that regardless of sm-this, sm-that (remember t&l? or how about all those "cool" features which turned out to be nothing - truform, anyone?), by the time sm3 becomes the "target" api, today's BEST sm3 cards will run those games with mediocrity at best.

there really only one thing that for certain -- that by the time ut3 comes out, there will be a midrange card that is reasonably priced (likely half the price of what i've paid for my x800s and nv40) which will outperform my (current) 6800GT. how is that for "futureproof"?

where will that leave the 6600gt? in the bargain basement. sure.. sli will help, but you'll be able to purchase a faster, single card for the same or less than what you'll be able to get a new 6600gt for (look at current prices of new last gen cards... only good for the uneducated who don't know better). a 6800gt now and upgrade to sli in a year would be a more reasonable argument (tho not without its faults) imo.

as for ati vs nv, who cares? while there have certainly been times when one had a clear advantage over the other, this is certainly not the case this year. differences in performance/IQ are so minor only the anal, or for those with far too much time that they would rather scrutinize screenshots rather than acutally playing a game would make a huge issue of it.

the only sound advice is to get the fastest, most stable card your budget allows for, and hang onto it for a long as you can stand....

i would agree tho that if you can only afford a midrange card, nv is the only option. ati has dropped the ball completely in the budget/mid-range segment (and frankly they also dropped the ball in the highend for not living up to delivery dates, and not having a supply after they actually shipped something -- hopefully that will change), but the reality is, in the future, today's best mid-range card will still be barely adequate compared to future generation cards....

 

trinibwoy

Senior member
Apr 29, 2005
317
3
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Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
Originally posted by: Skotos
READ THIS

wow for some reason I really want to play FarCry now, even after beating it, just because it now supports SM3.0 :roll:


You do know there are people out there with SM3.0 hardware who haven't played Far Cry yet right? :roll:

Those gains look kinda suspect though. I could reinstall it to see if there is such a big difference but won't since I'm lazy. :p
 

SneakyStuff

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2004
4,294
0
76
Originally posted by: trinibwoy
Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
Originally posted by: Skotos
READ THIS

wow for some reason I really want to play FarCry now, even after beating it, just because it now supports SM3.0 :roll:


You do know there are people out there with SM3.0 hardware who haven't played Far Cry yet right? :roll:

Those gains look kinda suspect though. I could reinstall it to see if there is such a big difference but won't since I'm lazy. :p

I know that, but chances are if they haven't played the game yet, they're not going to jump for it because of SM3.0 ;)