Shader model 3.0 (a civilized discussion)

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housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
(sorry double post)

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

Did you read any of the replies above (esp. mine?) Today's cards are, IMO, too slow to really take advantage of it (unless you're talking about SLI 6800GTs or better, but that's currently an $800+ solution). Okay, so you get slightly better framerates in FarCry -- the same framerates that ATI's R4XX hardware gets with PS2.0b. Yee-haw.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.

I don't think anyone's saying that, at the same price and overall performance, they wouldn't rather have SM3.0 than SM2.0. Obviously, more functionality is better than less functionality.

But if it's $300 for an X800XL and $400 for a 6800GT (as it is right now in PCIe), then what? You'd rather pay $100 more *now* for SM3.0 that *might* help you a little bit in a year -- and possibly end up being too slow for you to use anyway?

Well you get more than just that for your $100. You get DX9C/SM3, plus the possibility of a SLI upgrade (and my dual 6800GTs blow away any puny X800XL) and NV's drivers (http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=9412&head=1&comments=1 for just a small taste of what I'm referring to here, but theres alot more reasons why NV's drivers are superior other than whats referenced in those tests).

Another kicker is that it took this long for ATi to get a decent card out this generation.. and then took forever to get it down to MSRP.. basically, I'd say its kind of a rip considering that ATI's SM3/AMR is RIGHT around the corner.
And ppl are supposed to buy into this card?
Seems kinda sh!tty to me personally.
And in reality, anyone who was goign to upgrade this gen, probably already has or they wouldnt have waited this long.. and to pop in SM2/DX9B hardware from ATI at this moment kinda sucks for the consumer.
If you are buying this late, this generation.. at least do yourself a favor and get DX9C/SM3. As its clear and obvious anyone who has waited this long more than likely does not upgrade every year anyway!
Hence, a SM3/DX9C card for anyone buying now would probably be the better choice for the type who is upgrading this late.

Yeah, there is just a chance it will be fast enough for SM3 games in the future.. but at least you have it and its there.

There is a 0% that an X800XL's SM3 is going to be fast in future games.

That said, the x800xl is a decent choice. More power to you.
But I dont know if anyone with 100% surety can claim that NV40 SM3 is "too slow", without doubt for future games. The same camp that claims this, is also saying how there are no SM3 games built from ground up.. but merely patched ie FartCry.
So its kind of hypocritical (or blatant fanboyism, take your pick).
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
http://www.soylent-green.com/tutes/Displacement.html

thats about displacement mapping...it is good...the REAL Displacement mapping is only on SM3.0 ;) here are some infos about it:

"Displacement mapping is a powerful technique that allows a texture input, either proceedural, or image, to manipulate the position of rendered faces. Unlike Normal or Bump mapping, where the normals are skewed to give an illusion of a bump, this creates real bumps. They cast shadows, occlude other objects, and do everything real geometry can do."

"Displacement mapping is set up to behave as a texture chanel. With one very important difference.
In order to manipulate the positions of renderfaces smoothly, they have to be very small. [1] This eats memory and CPU time.

For distant/non-critical items, NOR mapping should still be used. Compared to NOR maps, displacement imposes very little additional CPU cost per renderface, but you can NOR map independantly of renderface count. Use of displacement quickly leads to million face scenes. "

It looks like SM3.0 will look really nice, while not straining your CPU and GPU...maybe GPU...i dunno...but either way, this is one way of being efficient. Can you imagine what kind of work an x800xl (in 2.0 obviously)would have to do to make an object look EXACTLY like a 6800 running in SM3.0 would?

The shaders/shadowbuffers/raytracer can't tell that you didn't model it that way


I agree with housecat. I do want you to know that i am not a fanboy, but recognize more "future proof" hardware and am happy about it.

I only upgrade once every 4 years, so I hope you understand why SM3.0 is so important to me. Try looking at it from my angle, as i understand why most think it is unimportant ;)
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: housecat
(sorry double post)

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

Did you read any of the replies above (esp. mine?) Today's cards are, IMO, too slow to really take advantage of it (unless you're talking about SLI 6800GTs or better, but that's currently an $800+ solution). Okay, so you get slightly better framerates in FarCry -- the same framerates that ATI's R4XX hardware gets with PS2.0b. Yee-haw.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.

I don't think anyone's saying that, at the same price and overall performance, they wouldn't rather have SM3.0 than SM2.0. Obviously, more functionality is better than less functionality.

But if it's $300 for an X800XL and $400 for a 6800GT (as it is right now in PCIe), then what? You'd rather pay $100 more *now* for SM3.0 that *might* help you a little bit in a year -- and possibly end up being too slow for you to use anyway?

Well you get more than just that for your $100. You get DX9C/SM3

OK, already covered that. Not worth $100 to me.

plus the possibility of a SLI upgrade (and my dual 6800GTs blow away any puny X800XL)

If you buy an SLI motherboard and a second matching card, at huge expense, and then deal with all the bugs/quirks of SLI. SLI is its own issue, and I also think it's a bad idea unless you have money to burn. Still, if you think SLI is uber-kewl!!!!!!!!111!, then maybe this seems attractive.

Dual 6800GTs are awful fast, but I'm not sure they'll be much (if any) faster than a single high-end R5XX/NV5X.

and NV's drivers (http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=9412&head=1&comments=1 for just a small taste of what I'm referring to here, but theres alot more reasons why NV's drivers are superior other than whats referenced in those tests).

Uh, would that include them only releasing official drivers like twice a year, or maybe all the flaky betas floating around, or their benchmarking cheating last year, or the whole PVP/video acceleration fiasco, or something else? :p ATI's been doing a pretty damn good job on their drivers in the last year.

Another kicker is that it took this long for ATi to get a decent card out this generation.. and then took forever to get it down to MSRP

Which matters now because? The 6800GT PCIe is still at MSRP anyway, and its MSRP is $100 higher than the X800XL PCIe.

basically, I'd say its kind of a rip considering that ATI's SM3/AMR is RIGHT around the corner.
And ppl are supposed to buy into this card?
Seems kinda sh!tty to me personally.

Why is it "shitty"? Also, the rumors are that the current ATI PCIe cards will all support AMR (or whatever they call their SLI-like technology) with the right motherboard anyway. And there's no telling when NV50/R500 are actually going to show up and/or be affordable.

And in reality, anyone who was goign to upgrade this gen, probably already has or they wouldnt have waited this long..

Or they didn't want to pay $400+. Some of us aren't made of money.

and to pop in SM2/DX9B hardware from ATI at this moment kinda sucks for the consumer.

??? "at this moment" the X800XL is just as fast as the 6800GT at everything out there.

If you are buying this late, this generation.. at least do yourself a favor and get DX9C/SM3. As its clear and obvious anyone who has waited this long more than likely does not upgrade every year anyway!
Hence, a SM3/DX9C card for anyone buying now would probably be the better choice for the type who is upgrading this late.

Yeah, there is just a chance it will be fast enough for SM3 games in the future.. but at least you have it and its there.

Yeah, but I can't see it being worth $100 more if you're choosing between a 6800GT and X800XL.

There is a 0% that an X800XL's SM3 is going to be fast in future games.

There's a 100% chance that the X800XL will be roughly as fast at SM2.0 as the 6800GT, and will be WAY faster than the 6600GT at the same. It seems unlikely, given the current evidence, that SM3.0 will provide large performance benefits for either card. And any major IQ improvements are likely to make them perform quite slowly.

But I dont know if anyone with 100% surety can claim that NV40 SM3 is "too slow", without doubt for future games. The same camp that claims this, is also saying how there are no SM3 games built from ground up.. but merely patched ie FartCry.
So its kind of hypocritical (or blatant fanboyism, take your pick).

Huh?
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
It looks like SM3.0 will look really nice, while not straining your CPU and GPU...maybe GPU...i dunno...but either way, this is one way of being efficient. Can you imagine what kind of work an x800xl (in 2.0 obviously)would have to do to make an object look EXACTLY like a 6800 running in SM3.0 would?

Real displacement mapping puts a *huge* strain on the rendering hardware, from everything I've seen. It still has to render/texture/shade all those triangles it creates via the displacement map -- you don't get the extra detail for "free" (although it doesn't take up as much memory, since it's done on the fly). IMO, I find it unlikely that a single GF6 card will be able to use advanced VS3.0 techniques in any meaningful way without being totally overwhelmed.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
I've said this before

in 2.0, the X800 series beats the 6800 series (most of the time, but not by much)
in 3.0 patches for current games, the 6800 and x800 series are about tied (the SM3.0 adding almost unoticable eye candy)
in future games, the x800 series will either look bad in 2.0 but run fast, or try to mimic the 3.0 features and end up being slow
in 2.0 in future games, the x800 will most likely win
in 2.0 (x800) and 3.0 (6800) the x800 will problably still be faster (unless it tries to look like it's running 3.0) but the 6800 will look alot nicer, without harming the framerate beyond 60fps (at 10x7 maybe) 60fps is playable...constant 30fps is playable...you all just think you can tell the difference, (30 and 60 you can) but did you know that movies and tv shows don't go above 30fps? yeah.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
and no one knows how well the 6800 will do in SM3 games (ue3)

but uh no...Displacement mapping doesn't put as much strain on your computer compared to if you wanted to actually modelled in all of that detail. And it is certainly more effecient than trying to let normal mapping on sm2.0 try to look like d-mapping.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: hans030390
and no one knows how well the 6800 will do in SM3 games (ue3)

Agreed.

but uh no...Displacement mapping doesn't put as much strain on your computer compared to if you wanted to actually modelled in all of that detail. And it is certainly more effecient than trying to let normal mapping on sm2.0 try to look like d-mapping.

It's pretty damn close in terms of GPU load -- it's just that you bog down in terms of memory, etc. if you try to load scenes with that many triangles and lots of detailed texture data. So in some sense, yes, it's more efficient, but probably not in the way you think. Like I said, the GPU still has to render the displaced triangles; they're not "free" like you seem to think they are.

Normal mapping can't do most of the stuff that displacement mapping does (real-time dynamic shadowing from the displaced trianges, etc.). It just won't look the same no matter what you do.

in 2.0, the X800 series beats the 6800 series (most of the time, but not by much)
in 3.0 patches for current games, the 6800 and x800 series are about tied (the SM3.0 adding almost unoticable eye candy)

So far, current games get *no* eye candy from SM3.0. There is no functional difference between PS2.0 and 3.0, other than that PS3.0 is slightly faster. VS3.0 could provide better IQ (with displacement mapping and other effects you can't do in VS2.0), but has not been used in games yet and will likely be real slow.

in future games, the x800 series will either look bad in 2.0 but run fast, or try to mimic the 3.0 features and end up being slow
in 2.0 in future games, the x800 will most likely win

I'm not sure that SM2.0 will look "bad", but yes, there could well be IQ differences between SM2.0 and SM3.0. How big they might be is hard to say. Barring games that only use SM1.1 or SM3.0 (which appear to be a small minority at the moment), I doubt IQ differences will be enormous.

in 2.0 (x800) and 3.0 (6800) the x800 will problably still be faster (unless it tries to look like it's running 3.0) but the 6800 will look alot nicer, without harming the framerate beyond 60fps (at 10x7 maybe) 60fps is playable...constant 30fps is playable...you all just think you can tell the difference, (30 and 60 you can) but did you know that movies and tv shows don't go above 30fps? yeah.

1) You don't know how much nicer SM3.0 in future games is going to look than SM2.0. You just don't. You also don't know how well or badly future games are going to perform in either mode -- you've just randomly picked some framerate numbers out of thin air.

2) Most people can tell differences well above 60FPS. This has been discussed to death several times, and we don't need to get into it again. This is not a particularly useful point in any case.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
Actually, i think it's been scientifically proven that you can't detect past 60...

and i got those numbers when someone was interviewing a game dev about 3.0...i wasn't being specific or anything, that was more of an example.

I pretty much agree with you on what you're saying though ;)
 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
(sorry double post)

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

Did you read any of the replies above (esp. mine?) Today's cards are, IMO, too slow to really take advantage of it (unless you're talking about SLI 6800GTs or better, but that's currently an $800+ solution). Okay, so you get slightly better framerates in FarCry -- the same framerates that ATI's R4XX hardware gets with PS2.0b. Yee-haw.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.

I don't think anyone's saying that, at the same price and overall performance, they wouldn't rather have SM3.0 than SM2.0. Obviously, more functionality is better than less functionality.

But if it's $300 for an X800XL and $400 for a 6800GT (as it is right now in PCIe), then what? You'd rather pay $100 more *now* for SM3.0 that *might* help you a little bit in a year -- and possibly end up being too slow for you to use anyway?

Well you get more than just that for your $100. You get DX9C/SM3

OK, already covered that. Not worth $100 to me.

plus the possibility of a SLI upgrade (and my dual 6800GTs blow away any puny X800XL)

If you buy an SLI motherboard and a second matching card, at huge expense, and then deal with all the bugs/quirks of SLI. SLI is its own issue, and I also think it's a bad idea unless you have money to burn. Still, if you think SLI is uber-kewl!!!!!!!!111!, then maybe this seems attractive.

Dual 6800GTs are awful fast, but I'm not sure they'll be much (if any) faster than a single high-end R5XX/NV5X.

and NV's drivers (http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=9412&head=1&comments=1 for just a small taste of what I'm referring to here, but theres alot more reasons why NV's drivers are superior other than whats referenced in those tests).

Uh, would that include them only releasing official drivers like twice a year, or maybe all the flaky betas floating around, or their benchmarking cheating last year, or the whole PVP/video acceleration fiasco, or something else? :p ATI's been doing a pretty damn good job on their drivers in the last year.

Another kicker is that it took this long for ATi to get a decent card out this generation.. and then took forever to get it down to MSRP

Which matters now because? The 6800GT PCIe is still at MSRP anyway, and its MSRP is $100 higher than the X800XL PCIe.

basically, I'd say its kind of a rip considering that ATI's SM3/AMR is RIGHT around the corner.
And ppl are supposed to buy into this card?
Seems kinda sh!tty to me personally.

Why is it "shitty"? Also, the rumors are that the current ATI PCIe cards will all support AMR (or whatever they call their SLI-like technology) with the right motherboard anyway. And there's no telling when NV50/R500 are actually going to show up and/or be affordable.

And in reality, anyone who was goign to upgrade this gen, probably already has or they wouldnt have waited this long..

Or they didn't want to pay $400+. Some of us aren't made of money.

and to pop in SM2/DX9B hardware from ATI at this moment kinda sucks for the consumer.

??? "at this moment" the X800XL is just as fast as the 6800GT at everything out there.

If you are buying this late, this generation.. at least do yourself a favor and get DX9C/SM3. As its clear and obvious anyone who has waited this long more than likely does not upgrade every year anyway!
Hence, a SM3/DX9C card for anyone buying now would probably be the better choice for the type who is upgrading this late.

Yeah, there is just a chance it will be fast enough for SM3 games in the future.. but at least you have it and its there.

Yeah, but I can't see it being worth $100 more if you're choosing between a 6800GT and X800XL.

There is a 0% that an X800XL's SM3 is going to be fast in future games.

There's a 100% chance that the X800XL will be roughly as fast at SM2.0 as the 6800GT, and will be WAY faster than the 6600GT at the same. It seems unlikely, given the current evidence, that SM3.0 will provide large performance benefits for either card. And any major IQ improvements are likely to make them perform quite slowly.

But I dont know if anyone with 100% surety can claim that NV40 SM3 is "too slow", without doubt for future games. The same camp that claims this, is also saying how there are no SM3 games built from ground up.. but merely patched ie FartCry.
So its kind of hypocritical (or blatant fanboyism, take your pick).

Huh?

Sounds like you've made up your mind. Going back and forth and presenting you with the facts, and having you return with commentary isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

But I see you have alot of reasons to bash the 6800GT and SLI, which makes no sense at all.. but remember:

R520 isnt here, its vapor. And either is ATI's AMR, as well as current cards being usuable under AMR. Total speculation.

As of today, NV rules the roost and has more forward looking feature set. Which is the better buy for those who waited this long especially.
Why buy into ATI's latest R300 revision when their new one is very near?

As stated, anyone who waited this long is prob not going to upgrade when the NV50 comes out anyway.. so its best to get the DX9C hardware with SLI support.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Originally posted by: hans030390
...constant 30fps is playable...you all just think you can tell the difference, (30 and 60 you can) but did you know that movies and tv shows don't go above 30fps? yeah.

that's because movies were made to run at 30 fps. there's a difference between controlling 30 fps and watching 30 fps. watching it isn't nearly as bad as controlling it.
 

sellmen

Senior member
May 4, 2003
459
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0

[/quote]Sounds like you've made up your mind. Going back and forth and presenting you with the facts, and having you return with commentary isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

But I see you have alot of reasons to bash the 6800GT and SLI, which makes no sense at all.. but remember:

R520 isnt here, its vapor. And either is ATI's AMR, as well as current cards being usuable under AMR. Total speculation.

As of today, NV rules the roost and has more forward looking feature set. Which is the better buy for those who waited this long especially.
Why buy into ATI's latest R300 revision when their new one is very near?

As stated, anyone who waited this long is prob not going to upgrade when the NV50 comes out anyway.. so its best to get the DX9C hardware with SLI support.[/quote]

"SLI support" means very little to many of us. I'd rather save $150 now ($100 card, $50 motherboard) sell my card off whenever it becomes to slow, and use the combined money to buy the next generation. 6800GTs will look old in two years, SLI or not...I'd rather move on and not have a forced upgrade path.

 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
i also think something needs to be cleared up. here's the deal (or so i think):

PS2.0 can do JUST AS MUCH as PS3.0 can. PS2.0 has the ability to look precisely the same as any PS3.0 shader ever created. That's because the PS3.0 shaders make the maximum shader length longer and improve speed, but the SAME IMAGE QUALITY can be attained by using multiple PS2.0 shaders and there's no arguing that.

VS3.0 supports features that VS2.0 doesn't, however.

The WHOLE REASON you might be able to see image improvements is because PS3.0 might turn the FPS into something playable, in turn, indirectly allowing better image quality in the end. Chances are there won't be that much improvement anyway though.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,487
532
126
Originally posted by: housecat

A lot of risk. Needless to say, I will be selling ATI stock and buying Nvidia stock.

The fact of the matter is, ATi released the card. Making a decision on which card to buy already, is just plain silly. You dont have any clue to which will be faster. Just a bunch of guesses. You dont have any facts as to which will be better, but your bias already made up the choice for you.

 

leedog2007

Senior member
Nov 4, 2004
396
0
0
No one can stettle the debate on this now, we have to wait until the games come out to know for sure. This is all conjecture.
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,170
13
81
Originally posted by: housecat
lol look at creig defending ATI like a true champ

i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.


Whatever housecat. You and hans can keep pushing SM3.0 like it was manna from heaven, but the majority of people here seem to think SM3.0 is far from a "must have" feature yet.

And give up trying to convince us that you "dont give a damn about nv/ati". If you'd like, I can quote a few of your more "colorful" posts showing you to be fully in the Nv camp and openly antangonistic towards anything ATI related.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
true, but this is a better way of discussing than through random posts that have nothing to do with it ;)
 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: housecat
lol look at creig defending ATI like a true champ

i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.


Whatever housecat. You and hans can keep pushing SM3.0 like it was manna from heaven, but the majority of people here seem to think SM3.0 is far from a "must have" feature yet.

And give up trying to convince us that you "dont give a damn about nv/ati". If you'd like, I can quote a few of your more "colorful" posts showing you to be fully in the Nv camp and openly antangonistic towards anything ATI related.

This. Coming from you?

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: housecat

A lot of risk. Needless to say, I will be selling ATI stock and buying Nvidia stock.

The fact of the matter is, ATi released the card. Making a decision on which card to buy already, is just plain silly. You dont have any clue to which will be faster. Just a bunch of guesses. You dont have any facts as to which will be better, but your bias already made up the choice for you.

Ackmed.
Another unbiased individual. LOL

Give me a break guys!!! Ackmed and Creig are like the Ambigously Gay Duo for ATI!!
Don't even pretend to act like some poor, pathetic soul being beaten down by the "mean NV crew"..

You may be getting beaten down.. like Rodney King.. but you also appear to be high on crack like him as well. ;)
 

MisterChief

Banned
Dec 26, 2004
1,128
0
0
Originally posted by: housecat
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
(sorry double post)

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: housecat
i dont give a damn about nv/ati. i do not understand the downplaying of SM3/DX9C by everyone here. it makes no sense to me at all.

Did you read any of the replies above (esp. mine?) Today's cards are, IMO, too slow to really take advantage of it (unless you're talking about SLI 6800GTs or better, but that's currently an $800+ solution). Okay, so you get slightly better framerates in FarCry -- the same framerates that ATI's R4XX hardware gets with PS2.0b. Yee-haw.

bring me two cards with identical speed, and one has DX9C hardware.. I'm going to take the DX9C hardware. Its that simple.
The rest is all ATI fanboyism.

I don't think anyone's saying that, at the same price and overall performance, they wouldn't rather have SM3.0 than SM2.0. Obviously, more functionality is better than less functionality.

But if it's $300 for an X800XL and $400 for a 6800GT (as it is right now in PCIe), then what? You'd rather pay $100 more *now* for SM3.0 that *might* help you a little bit in a year -- and possibly end up being too slow for you to use anyway?

Well you get more than just that for your $100. You get DX9C/SM3

OK, already covered that. Not worth $100 to me.

plus the possibility of a SLI upgrade (and my dual 6800GTs blow away any puny X800XL)

If you buy an SLI motherboard and a second matching card, at huge expense, and then deal with all the bugs/quirks of SLI. SLI is its own issue, and I also think it's a bad idea unless you have money to burn. Still, if you think SLI is uber-kewl!!!!!!!!111!, then maybe this seems attractive.

Dual 6800GTs are awful fast, but I'm not sure they'll be much (if any) faster than a single high-end R5XX/NV5X.

and NV's drivers (http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=9412&head=1&comments=1 for just a small taste of what I'm referring to here, but theres alot more reasons why NV's drivers are superior other than whats referenced in those tests).

Uh, would that include them only releasing official drivers like twice a year, or maybe all the flaky betas floating around, or their benchmarking cheating last year, or the whole PVP/video acceleration fiasco, or something else? :p ATI's been doing a pretty damn good job on their drivers in the last year.

Another kicker is that it took this long for ATi to get a decent card out this generation.. and then took forever to get it down to MSRP

Which matters now because? The 6800GT PCIe is still at MSRP anyway, and its MSRP is $100 higher than the X800XL PCIe.

basically, I'd say its kind of a rip considering that ATI's SM3/AMR is RIGHT around the corner.
And ppl are supposed to buy into this card?
Seems kinda sh!tty to me personally.

Why is it "shitty"? Also, the rumors are that the current ATI PCIe cards will all support AMR (or whatever they call their SLI-like technology) with the right motherboard anyway. And there's no telling when NV50/R500 are actually going to show up and/or be affordable.

And in reality, anyone who was goign to upgrade this gen, probably already has or they wouldnt have waited this long..

Or they didn't want to pay $400+. Some of us aren't made of money.

and to pop in SM2/DX9B hardware from ATI at this moment kinda sucks for the consumer.

??? "at this moment" the X800XL is just as fast as the 6800GT at everything out there.

If you are buying this late, this generation.. at least do yourself a favor and get DX9C/SM3. As its clear and obvious anyone who has waited this long more than likely does not upgrade every year anyway!
Hence, a SM3/DX9C card for anyone buying now would probably be the better choice for the type who is upgrading this late.

Yeah, there is just a chance it will be fast enough for SM3 games in the future.. but at least you have it and its there.

Yeah, but I can't see it being worth $100 more if you're choosing between a 6800GT and X800XL.

There is a 0% that an X800XL's SM3 is going to be fast in future games.

There's a 100% chance that the X800XL will be roughly as fast at SM2.0 as the 6800GT, and will be WAY faster than the 6600GT at the same. It seems unlikely, given the current evidence, that SM3.0 will provide large performance benefits for either card. And any major IQ improvements are likely to make them perform quite slowly.

But I dont know if anyone with 100% surety can claim that NV40 SM3 is "too slow", without doubt for future games. The same camp that claims this, is also saying how there are no SM3 games built from ground up.. but merely patched ie FartCry.
So its kind of hypocritical (or blatant fanboyism, take your pick).

Huh?

Sounds like you've made up your mind. Going back and forth and presenting you with the facts, and having you return with commentary isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

But I see you have alot of reasons to bash the 6800GT and SLI, which makes no sense at all.. but remember:

R520 isnt here, its vapor. And either is ATI's AMR, as well as current cards being usuable under AMR. Total speculation.

As of today, NV rules the roost and has more forward looking feature set. Which is the better buy for those who waited this long especially.
Why buy into ATI's latest R300 revision when their new one is very near?

As stated, anyone who waited this long is prob not going to upgrade when the NV50 comes out anyway.. so its best to get the DX9C hardware with SLI support.

A bump for the longest post eva! :beer:
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
Just to let you know, I think it's a "must have" for me, because i only upgrade once every 4 years...and i wanted to be a future proof as possible ;)

i hope you understand that. If ATI had made the x800 sm3.0, i would have gotten that hands down...I just think that SM3.0 is underrated (for example, any time i suggest a 6xxx card to someone because of SM3.0, in case they don't upgrade often, someone replies with "that's stupid...it isn't worth it...) it isn't worth it to have a little bit of security under your belt? :-

I hope i wasn't trying to make it look like it was a "manna from heaven" but i think it is important for SOME (like those who don't upgrade often) and i also was hoping that somepeople could understand it from our point of view...mostly mine...i thought i was the only one who thought SM3.0 was important ;)
 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
Thats the point. No one is making out out as "manna from heaven".. they just CAN'T STAND that NV has SM3/DX9C support.

If you present facts, or ANYTHING POSITIVE about NV40 that makes it the better choice and these guys are like "SHIAT!", proceed to dump their pants and then type furiously while masterbating.

You are right man, the GF6 IS more future proof.
And as stated, there is a 0% chance that the X800s will ever benefit from games built on DX9C.

The GF6 was the better cards overall this gen.
People need to get over that.
X800XL/X850= too little, WAY too late! Anyone who upgrades yearly already has a card.. and to recommend DX9B/SM2 hardware to someone who doesnt upgrade every year, at this point, is doing ATI a favor.. not the consumer.
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,170
13
81
Originally posted by: housecat
Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: housecat

A lot of risk. Needless to say, I will be selling ATI stock and buying Nvidia stock.

The fact of the matter is, ATi released the card. Making a decision on which card to buy already, is just plain silly. You dont have any clue to which will be faster. Just a bunch of guesses. You dont have any facts as to which will be better, but your bias already made up the choice for you.

Ackmed.
Another unbiased individual. LOL

Give me a break guys!!! Ackmed and Creig are like the Ambigously Gay Duo for ATI!!
Don't even pretend to act like some poor, pathetic soul being beaten down by the "mean NV crew"..

You may be getting beaten down.. like Rodney King.. but you also appear to be high on crack like him as well. ;)


Do you mind, housecat? Or have you already fogotten:

I was about to warn you about being so belligerant in this thread, but then, you posted this.

Your wish is granted. Your account is locked for one month. Please do not return during that time. If you start another account, you will be permanently banned, and we will file a formal abuse complaint about you with any ISP you use.

AnandTech Moderator

 

Drayvn

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
1,008
0
0
Originally posted by: housecat
Thats the point. No one is making out out as "manna from heaven".. they just CAN'T STAND that NV has SM3/DX9C support.

If you present facts, or ANYTHING POSITIVE about NV40 that makes it the better choice and these guys are like "SHIAT!", proceed to dump their pants and then type furiously while masterbating.

You are right man, the GF6 IS more future proof.
And as stated, there is a 0% chance that the X800s will ever benefit from games built on DX9C.

The GF6 was the better cards overall this gen.
People need to get over that.
X800XL/X850= too little, WAY too late! Anyone who upgrades yearly already has a card.. and to recommend DX9B/SM2 hardware to someone who doesnt upgrade every year, at this point, is doing ATI a favor.. not the consumer.

Thing is what u dont seem to get, ATi has complied with everything in the DX9c/SM3 part, the ONLY thing that its missing is i think looping and branching of the SM3 shader lengths THATS IT!

Without looping and branching SM3 has a max shader length of 512. SM2b has a max shader length of 512. After that SM2b supports everything that SM3 does. DX9c except for the SM3 and SM2b part what is ATi missing?

SM3 and DX9C are good things to come, we will have to wait to see those things come to life. Example UE3. But god damn, Housecat, tell me, everyone on here keeps saying you cant tell until the games supports it. And no not as a tacked on extra. Thats not a real comparison. A game which uses SM3 from the ground up. Then we can do a real comparison. But hey you go on like youve played on UE3 and have tested it thoroughly to give us the best unbiased knowledge.

The GF6 are good cards, just as good as the X800 upwards.

If you present facts, or ANYTHING POSITIVE about NV40 that makes it the better choice and these guys are like "SHIAT!", proceed to dump their pants and then type furiously while masterbating.

Pretty much like you do whenever someone remotely says anything about DX9b or SM2/b.

And as stated, there is a 0% chance that the X800s will ever benefit from games built on DX9C.

Geometry Instancing = DX9c standard, supported in the X800 upwards, oh no wait, supported from the 9700 upwards!
HDR = DX9c standard, supported in the X800 upwards
Parallax mapping = DX9c standard, supported in the X800 upwards
Soft Shadows = DX9c standard, supported in the X800 upwards

And for some unkown reasons some of these are under the DX9c standard are to only be used with SM3, which ATi have clearly done it without the use of SM3

You need to get over the fact that BOTH cards (GF6 AND X800 upwards) and damn fine cards. And no the 6800 is the best there is and everyone should worship it because the only extra features it carries is looping and branching.

 

housecat

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
1,426
0
0
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: housecat
Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: housecat

A lot of risk. Needless to say, I will be selling ATI stock and buying Nvidia stock.

The fact of the matter is, ATi released the card. Making a decision on which card to buy already, is just plain silly. You dont have any clue to which will be faster. Just a bunch of guesses. You dont have any facts as to which will be better, but your bias already made up the choice for you.

Ackmed.
Another unbiased individual. LOL

Give me a break guys!!! Ackmed and Creig are like the Ambigously Gay Duo for ATI!!
Don't even pretend to act like some poor, pathetic soul being beaten down by the "mean NV crew"..

You may be getting beaten down.. like Rodney King.. but you also appear to be high on crack like him as well. ;)


Do you mind, housecat? Or have you already fogotten:

I was about to warn you about being so belligerant in this thread, but then, you posted this.

Your wish is granted. Your account is locked for one month. Please do not return during that time. If you start another account, you will be permanently banned, and we will file a formal abuse complaint about you with any ISP you use.

AnandTech Moderator

OH, zing!!!!

Go Creig, go creig!

When you have nothing to say and am out of ammo, resort to childish tactics.

Seriously man..