Sex, dating, marriage, and the bible

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: sao123
You completely avoided the point of my post...

Someone who is supposedly seeking after God is not going to test the "grey areas"...

No, you are avoiding the point of your post. Don't pick and choose what fits your agenda. If you want to make it black and white, then please be consistent.

 

[piasabird]

The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

If you're not careful, eating pork can give you worms. But if we're careful, we eat it, and enjoy it. Is it a sin?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: sao123
You completely avoided the point of my post...

Someone who is supposedly seeking after God is not going to test the "grey areas"...

No, you are avoiding the point of your post. Don't pick and choose what fits your agenda. If you want to make it black and white, then please be consistent.

I dont have any agenda...I'm trying to answer the question posed forth. You say that the old testment does not apply, because you are not jewish... and I tend to agree with that sentiment, to a point. Initially I myself thought, you cannot be held to the letter of that law.

On no less than 27 times was Sexual Immorality forbidden throughout the new testament. Unfortunately, the term Sexual Immorality is vague in definition.

But then I found this connection:
Fortunately, in Acts 15, and reinforced by Acts 21...
Because of the difficulty in following all the numerous jewish laws, the gentile christians were simply unable to do all of them... and soemthing had to be done. Here is a summary script of verses...

Acts 15
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Acts 21:
25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Only these 3 laws were carryovers from the laws of Moses, and thereby still apply to us today. It would seem that all the sexuality laws given in the old testament would still apply.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: sao123
You completely avoided the point of my post...

Someone who is supposedly seeking after God is not going to test the "grey areas"...

No, you are avoiding the point of your post. Don't pick and choose what fits your agenda. If you want to make it black and white, then please be consistent.

I dont have any agenda...I'm trying to answer the question posed forth. You say that the old testment does not apply, because you are not jewish... and I tend to agree with that sentiment, to a point. Initially I myself thought, you cannot be held to the letter of that law.

On no less than 27 times was Sexual Immorality forbidden throughout the new testament. Unfortunately, the term Sexual Immorality is vague in definition.

But then I found this connection:
Fortunately, in Acts 15, and reinforced by Acts 21...
Because of the difficulty in following all the numerous jewish laws, the gentile christians were simply unable to do all of them... and soemthing had to be done. Here is a summary script of verses...

Acts 15
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Acts 21:
25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Only these 3 laws were carryovers from the laws of Moses, and thereby still apply to us today. It would seem that all the sexuality laws given in the old testament would still apply.

Awesome, thank you. That has a lot of substance right there. Now we need to interpret sexual immorality. I think we can all agree that rape, bestiality, prostitution, and orgies are immoral. Why? Because they are extremes and of perversion. But sex between two consenting adults that trust each other is not extreme nor perverted. So to properly address this we have to get into a gray area. If we avoid it just to be safe, then we're taking a Puritan approach, which also includes no dancing, no kissing, etc.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: sao123

Monogamy wasnt required until the new testament.

I never said monogamy was. It's rather obvious in several stories from the Bible that polygamy was practiced by many individuals.

Better re-read what you wrote...

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Other than that, you have the early Jewish law that required that if a man dies his brother (if single) is required to marry his brother's wife and provide her with seed.

Wonder where that idea came from? There was no such stipulation.

Deuteronomy 25 clearly states two things: 1) it can be any brother (my personal belief is that it should be a single brother first, if one is available), and 2) no brother is obligated to marry her. He will come under condemnation if a brother turn her down, but it seems rather obvious that the first choice would be a brother who is not currently married. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a specific order in which the wife must be "offered" to the brothers. If all are married, yes, it is possible that a polygamist relationship may happen, but it doesn't have to and logically shouldn't as long as a single brother exist.

So if you want to remove the "(if single)" statement, feel free. But in my opinion, single brother's were the first to take responsibility, but given, they may not be the only ones.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?

In his defense, I have not tried cocaine but I have no problem knocking it. Can't really use the argument you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you've experienced it first hand.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?

I agree with him and I do have experience with it, but I don't see what difference that makes.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Awesome, thank you. That has a lot of substance right there. Now we need to interpret sexual immorality. I think we can all agree that rape, bestiality, prostitution, and orgies are immoral. Why? Because they are extremes and of perversion. But sex between two consenting adults that trust each other is not extreme nor perverted. So to properly address this we have to get into a gray area. If we avoid it just to be safe, then we're taking a Puritan approach, which also includes no dancing, no kissing, etc.

Not that I disagree with you, but isn't prostitution still "sex between two consenting adults that trust each other"?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: sao123

Monogamy wasnt required until the new testament.

I never said monogamy was. It's rather obvious in several stories from the Bible that polygamy was practiced by many individuals.

Better re-read what you wrote...

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Other than that, you have the early Jewish law that required that if a man dies his brother (if single) is required to marry his brother's wife and provide her with seed.

Wonder where that idea came from? There was no such stipulation.

Deuteronomy 25 clearly states two things: 1) it can be any brother (my personal belief is that it should be a single brother first, if one is available), and 2) no brother is obligated to marry her. He will come under condemnation if a brother turn her down, but it seems rather obvious that the first choice would be a brother who is not currently married. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a specific order in which the wife must be "offered" to the brothers. If all are married, yes, it is possible that a polygamist relationship may happen, but it doesn't have to and logically shouldn't as long as a single brother exist.

So if you want to remove the "(if single)" statement, feel free. But in my opinion, single brother's were the first to take responsibility, but given, they may not be the only ones.

If I remember correctly from my Jewish studies class, it always fell to the responsibility of the oldest remaining brother. This would indicate that he would never be single.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?

In his defense, I have not tried cocaine but I have no problem knocking it. Can't really use the argument you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you've experienced it first hand.

I've never driven a car before. What could come with it? Car accidents? Speeding Tickets? Insurance premiums? Gas Prices? Pollution?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Not that I disagree with you, but isn't prostitution still "sex between two consenting adults that trust each other"?

Not when she's being pimped out.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
I've never driven a car before. What could come with it? Car accidents? Speeding Tickets? Insurance premiums? Gas Prices? Pollution?

That is a very good example.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: sao123
If I remember correctly from my Jewish studies class, it always fell to the responsibility of the oldest remaining brother. This would indicate that he would never be single.

That may well be the case, I'm not positive either. It just seems logical to me it would go to a single brother first, if one exist.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Not that I disagree with you, but isn't prostitution still "sex between two consenting adults that trust each other"?

Not when she's being pimped out.

Good point. Would that though make prostitution okay if that is not the case though? For instance, Pretty Woman. Possibly a bad example, but let's see.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?

In his defense, I have not tried cocaine but I have no problem knocking it. Can't really use the argument you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you've experienced it first hand.

Is cocaine a perfectly natural thing that you will happily and regularly use once you're married?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Good point. Would that though make prostitution okay if that is not the case though? For instance, Pretty Woman. Possibly a bad example, but let's see.

I don't have an argument that could justify it. When I view sex between two consenting adults as moral, I'm also including the relationship, trust, respect, etc. that goes into it. To me, treating the act of sex as a commercial service is immoral. But then again, that is my opinion.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Awesome, thank you. That has a lot of substance right there. Now we need to interpret sexual immorality. I think we can all agree that rape, bestiality, prostitution, and orgies are immoral. Why? Because they are extremes and of perversion. But sex between two consenting adults that trust each other is not extreme nor perverted. So to properly address this we have to get into a gray area. If we avoid it just to be safe, then we're taking a Puritan approach, which also includes no dancing, no kissing, etc.

There is no gray area, if there are inpure thoughts in your head (whether that be when you are oogling, holding hands, or petting) you are committing a sin.

You don't have to avoid the things you mentioned, you just have to discern where your heart and thoughts are at the time. If you love a woman and respect her and want to hold her hand out of that love for her (not lust for her body, but love for her heart) then you are not committing a sin. It's all about your thoughts, heart, and intentions.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: sao123
You completely avoided the point of my post...

Someone who is supposedly seeking after God is not going to test the "grey areas"...

No, you are avoiding the point of your post. Don't pick and choose what fits your agenda. If you want to make it black and white, then please be consistent.

I dont have any agenda...I'm trying to answer the question posed forth. You say that the old testment does not apply, because you are not jewish... and I tend to agree with that sentiment, to a point. Initially I myself thought, you cannot be held to the letter of that law.

On no less than 27 times was Sexual Immorality forbidden throughout the new testament. Unfortunately, the term Sexual Immorality is vague in definition.

But then I found this connection:
Fortunately, in Acts 15, and reinforced by Acts 21...
Because of the difficulty in following all the numerous jewish laws, the gentile christians were simply unable to do all of them... and soemthing had to be done. Here is a summary script of verses...

Acts 15
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Acts 21:
25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Only these 3 laws were carryovers from the laws of Moses, and thereby still apply to us today. It would seem that all the sexuality laws given in the old testament would still apply.

Awesome, thank you. That has a lot of substance right there. Now we need to interpret sexual immorality. I think we can all agree that rape, bestiality, prostitution, and orgies are immoral. Why? Because they are extremes and of perversion. But sex between two consenting adults that trust each other is not extreme nor perverted. So to properly address this we have to get into a gray area. If we avoid it just to be safe, then we're taking a Puritan approach, which also includes no dancing, no kissing, etc.

That doesnt mean I am open to interpret sexual immorality as I please...

If I follow your logic however, having sex before marriage may not be explicitly forbidden, however, it would seem that marriage must soon follow.

However women having multiple partners during their lifetime would seem forbidden, and thus posing problems for the former...
Why?

Exodus 22
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.

and then following

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.


1 Corinthians 7
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Good point. Would that though make prostitution okay if that is not the case though? For instance, Pretty Woman. Possibly a bad example, but let's see.

I don't have an argument that could justify it. When I view sex between two consenting adults as moral, I'm also including the relationship, trust, respect, etc. that goes into it. To me, treating the act of sex as a commercial service is immoral. But then again, that is my opinion.

I agree. I think it very immoral. Just checking.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Awesome, thank you. That has a lot of substance right there. Now we need to interpret sexual immorality. I think we can all agree that rape, bestiality, prostitution, and orgies are immoral. Why? Because they are extremes and of perversion. But sex between two consenting adults that trust each other is not extreme nor perverted. So to properly address this we have to get into a gray area. If we avoid it just to be safe, then we're taking a Puritan approach, which also includes no dancing, no kissing, etc.

There is no gray area, if there are inpure thoughts in your head (whether that be when you are oogling, holding hands, or petting) you are committing a sin.

You don't have to avoid the things you mentioned, you just have to discern where your heart and thoughts are at the time. If you love a woman and respect her and want to hold her hand out of that love for her (not lust for her body, but love for her heart) then you are not committing a sin. It's all about your thoughts, heart, and intentions.

I like that answer, thank you.

 

[bdude]

Such a huge divide between the religious and non-religious in terms of thinking processes; however, as long as respect is given and received, it's all good.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: sao123
However women having multiple partners during their lifetime would seem forbidden, and thus posing problems for the former...
Why?

1 Corinthians 7
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Does control mean abstinence, or is this actually referring to rampant promiscuity?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: sao123
However women having multiple partners during their lifetime would seem forbidden, and thus posing problems for the former...
Why?

1 Corinthians 7
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Does control mean abstinence, or is this actually referring to rampant promiscuity?

this depends on your definition of lust... does lust distinguish between the married and the non-married?

the definition of lust is a desire for sexual activity...

I think this group of verses is clear that marriage is the solution to the problem of lust...


but... for unmarried people
1 Do you believe it is possible to hold hands without feeling lust?
2 Do you believe it is possible to kiss/french kiss without feeling lust?
3 Do you believe it is possible to neck/make out without feeling lust?
4 Do you believe it is possible for non penetrative mutual sexual stimulation (hands or orally) without feeling lust?
5 Do you believe it is possible for penetrative intercourse without feeling lust?