Settle a discussion. Xbox 360 graphics vs High End PC

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Originally posted by: JRW
What if we look at it from a "Which system has more quality games worth owning" perspective ... PC loses big time and it only seems to be getting worse

US PC Game Software Sales:

1998 - $1.7 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

Still a billion dollar market in the US alone... no one is going to walk away from a billion dollar market.

With Burning Crusade just out, Crysis rolling up soon, and many other major titles on the way... 2007 will be a good year for PC game sales.

Its still not looking good for the PC if the trend continues and t looks like it will. Fewer developers, releasing fewer "killer apps" every year and ever increasing hardware demands that continue to dissuade casual gamers from getting into PC gaming.

As a comparison in 2005 the consoles had well over 10 billion in game sales and thats not including the hand held market. And thats considered a "down" year since the big 3 consoles were nearing or at the end of their lifespans.

PC gaming is being relegated to a handful of decent games per year (if were lucky) and a ton of poorly done console ports.

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: JRW
What if we look at it from a "Which system has more quality games worth owning" perspective ... PC loses big time and it only seems to be getting worse

US PC Game Software Sales:

1998 - $1.7 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

I don't think this include the monthly subsription fees for games like WoW, does it? The cost of playing WoW for 1 yr is equivalent to buying 4 new games.

I think for ppl who only play consoles games or never play PC games on a high end PC, PS3 and X360 games look awfully impressive. Still I agree they look very impressive, but it's just not going to beat a high end PC with 8800 already out, and R600 and DX10 at the corner. Anyway I'm finally won over by a console that's lacking in gfx department - the Wii.

 

[josh6079]

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....

I never have, nor ever will play that game.

FFXI FTW!!!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....

I never have, nor ever will play that game.

FFXI FTW!!!

don't click on this link! - Josh :Q

WoW launch outsells everything but Halo 2

midnight opening for WoW: TBC was an instant hit, and a massive 2.4 million boxes ended up in gamers hands. 1.2 million copies were sold in USA, 1.1 million in Europe and controlled 100.000 in rest of the world. But in beancounter's perspective, company achieved a tremendous result.

When you take a look at the retail price of 39.99 US dollars, or 34.99 Euros (45.34 USD), it becomes obvious that Blizzard and Vivendi pulled a giant feet, passing the 100 million dollar mark. This launch is a record PC launch in terms of revenue and dwarfs opening sales of almost all console hits, such as Gran Turismo 4, Final Fantasy or even Gears of War. In "All Times" chart, this title comes second to Halo 2 only, which holds a record of 125 million dollars in sales during first 24 hours.

A total of four million retail boxes were shipped in stores around the world, but that is not all that is expected from Blizzard. Estimates figure that WoW will peak at around 10 million active subscribers, but even that estimate can be wrong.

Plus, this is one of very rare games which value raises as the time goes by. The author of this article owns both WoW and WoW: TBC in their Collector Editions, which currently sell for well above retail price (original WoW CE goes out for at least 300 USD on eBay, original RRP was $80).

i guess PC gaming is on life support - except for the big titles

 

[Nightmare225]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: josh6079

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....

I never have, nor ever will play that game.

FFXI FTW!!!

don't click on this link! - Josh :Q

WoW launch outsells everything but Halo 2

midnight opening for WoW: TBC was an instant hit, and a massive 2.4 million boxes ended up in gamers hands. 1.2 million copies were sold in USA, 1.1 million in Europe and controlled 100.000 in rest of the world. But in beancounter's perspective, company achieved a tremendous result.

When you take a look at the retail price of 39.99 US dollars, or 34.99 Euros (45.34 USD), it becomes obvious that Blizzard and Vivendi pulled a giant feet, passing the 100 million dollar mark. This launch is a record PC launch in terms of revenue and dwarfs opening sales of almost all console hits, such as Gran Turismo 4, Final Fantasy or even Gears of War. In "All Times" chart, this title comes second to Halo 2 only, which holds a record of 125 million dollars in sales during first 24 hours.

A total of four million retail boxes were shipped in stores around the world, but that is not all that is expected from Blizzard. Estimates figure that WoW will peak at around 10 million active subscribers, but even that estimate can be wrong.

Plus, this is one of very rare games which value raises as the time goes by. The author of this article owns both WoW and WoW: TBC in their Collector Editions, which currently sell for well above retail price (original WoW CE goes out for at least 300 USD on eBay, original RRP was $80).

i guess PC gaming is on life support - except for the big titles

You might not like to read this, but...

PC gaming stops slide in 2006

Conclusion Quote:
"It's refreshing to see an increase in retail sales of PC games after having experienced a few years of declines," NPD analyst Anita Frazier said in a statement. "With revenues from digital downloads and subscriptions on the rise as well, the PC games segment of the industry remains healthy."

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Nightmare225

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: josh6079

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....

I never have, nor ever will play that game.

FFXI FTW!!!

don't click on this link! - Josh :Q

WoW launch outsells everything but Halo 2

midnight opening for WoW: TBC was an instant hit, and a massive 2.4 million boxes ended up in gamers hands. 1.2 million copies were sold in USA, 1.1 million in Europe and controlled 100.000 in rest of the world. But in beancounter's perspective, company achieved a tremendous result.

When you take a look at the retail price of 39.99 US dollars, or 34.99 Euros (45.34 USD), it becomes obvious that Blizzard and Vivendi pulled a giant feet, passing the 100 million dollar mark. This launch is a record PC launch in terms of revenue and dwarfs opening sales of almost all console hits, such as Gran Turismo 4, Final Fantasy or even Gears of War. In "All Times" chart, this title comes second to Halo 2 only, which holds a record of 125 million dollars in sales during first 24 hours.

A total of four million retail boxes were shipped in stores around the world, but that is not all that is expected from Blizzard. Estimates figure that WoW will peak at around 10 million active subscribers, but even that estimate can be wrong.

Plus, this is one of very rare games which value raises as the time goes by. The author of this article owns both WoW and WoW: TBC in their Collector Editions, which currently sell for well above retail price (original WoW CE goes out for at least 300 USD on eBay, original RRP was $80).

i guess PC gaming is on life support - except for the big titles

You might not like to read this, but...

PC gaming stops slide in 2006

Conclusion Quote:
"It's refreshing to see an increase in retail sales of PC games after having experienced a few years of declines," NPD analyst Anita Frazier said in a statement. "With revenues from digital downloads and subscriptions on the rise as well, the PC games segment of the industry remains healthy."

i sincerely hope the *you* does not refer to *me*



i AM a PC gamer ... and do not currently own any console
:heart:

and those Increases are due to TWO or THREE successful titles ... WoW's Xpack is more than 1/10 the TOTAL of ALL PC game sales
:Q

[unfortunately]
:brokenheart:

 

[josh6079]

LOL.

Thanks for the heads up on the link.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Nightmare225

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: josh6079

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....

I never have, nor ever will play that game.

FFXI FTW!!!

don't click on this link! - Josh :Q

WoW launch outsells everything but Halo 2

midnight opening for WoW: TBC was an instant hit, and a massive 2.4 million boxes ended up in gamers hands. 1.2 million copies were sold in USA, 1.1 million in Europe and controlled 100.000 in rest of the world. But in beancounter's perspective, company achieved a tremendous result.

When you take a look at the retail price of 39.99 US dollars, or 34.99 Euros (45.34 USD), it becomes obvious that Blizzard and Vivendi pulled a giant feet, passing the 100 million dollar mark. This launch is a record PC launch in terms of revenue and dwarfs opening sales of almost all console hits, such as Gran Turismo 4, Final Fantasy or even Gears of War. In "All Times" chart, this title comes second to Halo 2 only, which holds a record of 125 million dollars in sales during first 24 hours.

A total of four million retail boxes were shipped in stores around the world, but that is not all that is expected from Blizzard. Estimates figure that WoW will peak at around 10 million active subscribers, but even that estimate can be wrong.

Plus, this is one of very rare games which value raises as the time goes by. The author of this article owns both WoW and WoW: TBC in their Collector Editions, which currently sell for well above retail price (original WoW CE goes out for at least 300 USD on eBay, original RRP was $80).

i guess PC gaming is on life support - except for the big titles

You might not like to read this, but...

PC gaming stops slide in 2006

Conclusion Quote:
"It's refreshing to see an increase in retail sales of PC games after having experienced a few years of declines," NPD analyst Anita Frazier said in a statement. "With revenues from digital downloads and subscriptions on the rise as well, the PC games segment of the industry remains healthy."

i sincerely hope the *you* does not refer to *me*



i AM a PC gamer ... and do not currently own any console
:heart:

and those Increases are due to TWO or THREE successful titles ... WoW's Xpack is more than 1/10 the TOTAL of ALL PC game sales
:Q

[unfortunately]
:brokenheart:

Well if it only takes 2 or 3 successful titles to make a difference well all we need to have is around 10 more successful titles and wed be talking 10's of billions!!!

 

[jim1976]

I don't care and I don't want to make irrelevant comparisons..Because that's what you do when you compare a PC to a console even only gfx wise.. Irrelevant comparisons
I spend a significant amount of money on my PC,so why the hell shouldn't I take a XBOX360 to have a great variety of good games?
Also PC is great for some games while console is great for some other genres.. Sometimes joystick does the job better while sometimes mouse+keyboard are essential..

XBOX360 2007 : Halo3, Turok, Mass Effect, Oblivion expansion etc..

PC: Crysis, Spore,Project Offset(I hope ), Stalker, UT2K7 etc..

BTW has anybody heard anything about Unreal 3 ? All I seem to hear is about UT2K7..

 

[BroadbandGamer]

I don't think there is any question that an 8800 GTX running DirectX 10 is going to kill anything the 360 can do. If won't even be close.

Having said that, I just did a comparison of Rainbow Six: Vegas on the PC and the 360. The PC looks a little better but not much. I had a real hard time telling them apart. Now the game runs like crap on the PC and nice and smooth on the 360. I'm going to blame Ubi for this. They put no effort into porting Vegas to the PC. Hell, they didn't even bother putting in native widescreen resolutions! Leave it to Ubi to make the Unreal engine run like crap on a PC!

Vegas on the PC could have been a classic masterpiece had Ubi not treated us PC Gamers like 2nd class citizens.

Way to go Ubi! You're on my list right below EA!

 

[miniMUNCH]

I heard Mass Effect will be on PC within a year of Xbox 360 release with improved content and gameplay.

But I think, as others have mentioned, the PC game market is going to go more Big title PC native release (i.e. Crysis) or ports from the 360 mainly (because DX and MS dev tools makes porting / co-development easier).


If you are going to develop a FPS, RPG, or action adventure game you have to aim for making a masterpiece which means the story line and environmental design (game play, look and feel, sound) have to be awesome. To do this, you have to splash a lot of cash up front to purchase rights to use an game engine Unreal 3, crytek's stuff, doom3 and variants thereon, etc. or you have program your own from scratch.

My friend who has his own small VG/media company, was in talks to purchase rights to the Unreal 3 engine...the price was something like approx. 1.4 million USD up front (prior to writing a line of code for the game) plus 10-25% of sale proceeds on the back end. After considering publisher's cut on sales, my friend estimated the game would have to sell at least 1 million copies to break even on costs and wouldn't really be worth while doing unless it was going to sell 3+ million copies. Quality multi-player features, additional cheap/free game content, etc. make it a lot easier to sell more copies but then you have to add multi-player infrastructure costs which can get really big really fast.

So my friend is going a different route.

 

[Nightmare225]

Originally posted by: jim1976
I don't care and I don't want to make irrelevant comparisons..Because that's what you do when you compare a PC to a console even only gfx wise.. Irrelevant comparisons
I spend a significant amount of money on my PC,so why the hell shouldn't I take a XBOX360 to have a great variety of good games?
Also PC is great for some games while console is great for some other genres.. Sometimes joystick does the job better while sometimes mouse+keyboard are essential..

XBOX360 2007 : Halo3, Turok, Mass Effect, Oblivion expansion etc..

PC: Crysis, Spore,Project Offset(I hope ), Stalker, UT2K7 etc..

BTW has anybody heard anything about Unreal 3 ? All I seem to hear is about UT2K7..

Its Unreal Tournament 3 now.

Spoiler: It is coming for 350 now.

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
I heard Mass Effect will be on PC within a year of Xbox 360 release with improved content and gameplay.

But I think, as others have mentioned, the PC game market is going to go more Big title PC native release (i.e. Crysis) or ports from the 360 mainly (because DX and MS dev tools makes porting / co-development easier).


If you are going to develop a FPS, RPG, or action adventure game you have to aim for making a masterpiece which means the story line and environmental design (game play, look and feel, sound) have to be awesome. To do this, you have to splash a lot of cash up front to purchase rights to use an game engine Unreal 3, crytek's stuff, doom3 and variants thereon, etc. or you have program your own from scratch.

My friend who has his own small VG/media company, was in talks to purchase rights to the Unreal 3 engine...the price was something like approx. 1.4 million USD up front (prior to writing a line of code for the game) plus 10-25% of sale proceeds on the back end. After considering publisher's cut on sales, my friend estimated the game would have to sell at least 1 million copies to break even on costs and wouldn't really be worth while doing unless it was going to sell 3+ million copies. Quality multi-player features, additional cheap/free game content, etc. make it a lot easier to sell more copies but then you have to add multi-player infrastructure costs which can get really big really fast.

So my friend is going a different route.

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
I heard Mass Effect will be on PC within a year of Xbox 360 release with improved content and gameplay.

But I think, as others have mentioned, the PC game market is going to go more Big title PC native release (i.e. Crysis) or ports from the 360 mainly (because DX and MS dev tools makes porting / co-development easier).


If you are going to develop a FPS, RPG, or action adventure game you have to aim for making a masterpiece which means the story line and environmental design (game play, look and feel, sound) have to be awesome. To do this, you have to splash a lot of cash up front to purchase rights to use an game engine Unreal 3, crytek's stuff, doom3 and variants thereon, etc. or you have program your own from scratch.

My friend who has his own small VG/media company, was in talks to purchase rights to the Unreal 3 engine...the price was something like approx. 1.4 million USD up front (prior to writing a line of code for the game) plus 10-25% of sale proceeds on the back end. After considering publisher's cut on sales, my friend estimated the game would have to sell at least 1 million copies to break even on costs and wouldn't really be worth while doing unless it was going to sell 3+ million copies. Quality multi-player features, additional cheap/free game content, etc. make it a lot easier to sell more copies but then you have to add multi-player infrastructure costs which can get really big really fast.

So my friend is going a different route.

Did your friend consider the source engine?

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: Nightmare225
Its Unreal Tournament 3 now.

Spoiler: It is coming for 350 now.

Of course.. Sweeney and Epic is in love with M$ now and we will see another huge title first in xbox360.. :disgust:

I'm beginning to think that I won't need my PC for gaming after some time, just my sexbox..:roll:

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Pugnate
Actually it was ported from console to PC.

eh? The xbox 360 development kit even around when they were in the early stages of writing it?

 

[lithium726]

meh, even if the PC does push out nicer graphics, the 360 still looks fantastic. Hell, first gen DX9 games on my 6800GT look fantastic. And even if the PC runs at higher resolutions, if you get a 360 and a 720p TV, it doesnt matter... its running at native res and looks the best there anyhow. And large TV and couch > monitor and chair.

 

[BladeVenom]

That software sales chart is totally meaningless. It doesn't cover all stores, online sales, gaming accounts like Steam and Totalgaming.net, or game subscriptions. World of Warcraft alone will earn more money this year than all of the Wii games, XBox 360 games, or PS3 games will make this year.

 

[imported_Airjarhead]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

We noticed that the Xbox 360 version had better antialiasing since our PC version couldn't enable HDR and antialiasing at the same time. Of course on the PC version, you can get rid of jaggies the old-fashioned way by jacking up the resolution.

Statements like that are ridiculous IMO. First of all, games without AA look like crap. Second, increasing the resolution doesn't substitute for AA, especially with an LCD which you should run at native. If I was doing the comparison they did, I would 1) rated the 360 higher because of the PC's lack of AA ability, 2) used an X1900XTX which supports HDR+AA, and then given the nod to the PC.

..did anyone also notice that the screenshots clearly show the 360 image to be a normal aspect ratio stretched to a widescreen aspect ratio, while the PC is actually a true widescreen aspect ratio...? It's possible that it is actually the fault of the boobs that wrote the article having their 360 set incorrectly though, I'm not sure.

Anyway, as far as the overall comparison goes, I think technically high end (G80 series graphics cards) PC's can probably do more, but I think PC gamers are getting the shaft from developers. Look at the Rainbow Six Vegas benchmarks on AT's main page... No AA on PC version, same with GRAW, and no GoW for PC... For shooters, the PC hasn't been developer priority lately, which IMO is the bigger concern than the graphics capability. WTF is up with all these games coming out that can't do AA on top end ATI or NVIDIA hardware amyway? I don't pay $650 for a graphics card to have my games look like ass, and I personally won't spend a dime on a game that doesn't support AA. This trend of PC gamers not getting any good (quality) new shooters in a while has me seriously contemplating an XBox 360.

OTOH, if your an MMO player, PC is where it's at. ...at least this week. Although, you can play WoW/TBC very nicely at high resolutions on even an X800 series card...

I agree 100% I'm tiered of people using Oblivion as the only comparison between the PC and the 360. I have never played Oblivion, and have no desire to play a game like that. I used to love PC gaming. R6 and GR were the games I loved the most. Right now, I have an 8800GTS and the Xbox 360 OWNS in R6V and GRAW. It's not even close. What Ubi and EA are doing to PC gaming is making me sick, but I am seriously thinking of buying a 360 now.
I also question people that say the Xbox 360 is DX9 because it came out before G80. I think it might be DX10 capable. After all the 360 GPU is what R600 is based off. Also -think about who developed DX, and then look at the company that makes the 360. I think it might be able to do DX10.
Also, to say an Xbox 360 has less GPU power than an X19XX or 7XXX is purely ignorant. The specs might be inferior, but the static hardware means developers can do wonders. After seeing what an original Xbox can do, I really started to believe you need a PC with twice the horsepower to equal a console. PCs are just so damn inefficient.
Do I think the 360 is better now? For games that I play - YES
Do I think the 360 will be better for the next few years? No
Even though the OP didn't want price mentioned, it is a HUGE factor in my decision making process.
BTW, I'm also not a Halo fan boi. I have never played it.

 

[imported_Airjarhead]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
Don't most graphics-intense console titles automatically switch to lower detail during multi-player mode? (I saw this in the Rainbow Six Vegas review on Gametrailers.com. Do Gears of War/FEAR do this too?)

You could throw that argument in - PC users can keep it cranked up all the way as long as the hardware is good enough. And 1280x720 is not a very difficult resolution to drive for todays GPUs.

I don't know about the 360 version of R6V (The only part of R6V I've seen for the 360 is the demo), but I can tell you that the MP in the PC version of R6V DOES switch to lower detail and it looks like A$$. There is NOTHING you can do about it.

 

[josh6079]

I also question people that say the Xbox 360 is DX9 because it came out before G80. I think it might be DX10 capable.

It doesn't fall completely under either category. It has its own API.

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: Airjarhead
Right now, I have an 8800GTS and the Xbox 360 OWNS in R6V and GRAW. It's not even close. What Ubi and EA are doing to PC gaming is making me sick, but I am seriously thinking of buying a 360 now.

Don't buy an Xbox, just avoid poorly ported games. Buying an Xbox will just encourage them to keep doing a sloppy job on the PC version.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
That software sales chart is totally meaningless. It doesn't cover all stores, online sales, gaming accounts like Steam and Totalgaming.net, or game subscriptions. World of Warcraft alone will earn more money this year than all of the Wii games, XBox 360 games, or PS3 games will make this year.

nonsense

in what fantasyland?

 

[miniMUNCH]

Xbox 360 does not support required DX10 shader instructions, among other things... DX10 will never be on the current Xbox 360 design.

But... the Xbox 360 will keep DX9 alive and well for some time... this should be encouraging to folks who want to stick to PC gaming on XP.

Nightmare: I'm sure about all the potential deals as far as game engines go but my friend looked into every single one, I think. I think the U3 engine was the most attractive option. But no worries, my friend has some great stuff in the works... his company is about to go big time.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Xbox 360 does not support required DX10 shader instructions, among other things... DX10 will never be on the current Xbox 360 design.

But... the Xbox 360 will keep DX9 alive and well for some time... this should be encouraging to folks who want to stick to PC gaming on XP.

Nightmare: I'm sure about all the potential deals as far as game engines go but my friend looked into every single one, I think. I think the U3 engine was the most attractive option. But no worries, my friend has some great stuff in the works... his company is about to go big time.

U3 has unreal support.

anyway, dx10 is not such a big deal ... for a couple of years ...
... until the FIRST "DX10 from-the-ground-up" games come out ... at that point, the xbox360 will start to fall behind and no doubt MS will be talking about xbox720

and Unreal 2 used to be only about a quarter to 1/2 million dollars ... that isn't that long ago ... depending on how much 'hand holding' you wanted.
:Q

 

[Todd33]

Oblivion was barely bearable at 720P on the 360. It was choppy and bug ridden. I wish I had bought the PC version.

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
That software sales chart is totally meaningless. It doesn't cover all stores, online sales, gaming accounts like Steam and Totalgaming.net, or game subscriptions. World of Warcraft alone will earn more money this year than all of the Wii games, XBox 360 games, or PS3 games will make this year.

nonsense

in what fantasyland?

WoW has 8 millions subscribers paying about $14 a month. They sold 2.4 million copies of Burning Crusade in the first day. That's already looking to be 1.34 Billion, and that's if they sell no more games, and get no new subscribers. I would guess it makes over 1.5 billion this year, possibly 2 billion dollars or more.

Do you think any of the new consoles will sell 2 billion dollars worth of games this year?

Xbox 360 has the most consoles out there now, so how much do you think it will sell in games for 2007?