Settle a discussion. Xbox 360 graphics vs High End PC

[miniMUNCH]

The GoW designers made very intelligent decisions on game atmosphere and feel that allows for fantastic visuals without massive hardware requirements... but the kudo's belong to the game designers/programmers.

The Xbox 360 simply provides the hardware, OS and API's.

That all being said, running GoW at 720p on a 22" computer LCD that is 3-4 feet away doesn't look that great (tried it)... it looks very good on a 42" LCD TV that is 8+ feet away.

I am trying to tell you guys...console and PC are two entirely different platforms with different visual / "look & feel" goals.

 

[josh6079]

*first of all*

have you actually *seen* GoW on a big LCD?

Yes.

I've also played more extensively on a 2007WFP I have and it still looked subpar compared to other games.

There is literally no AA, and I assume that there is hardly any AF - if any at all. Let's not even start with the amount of shimmering that's apparent due to lack of those features.

But graphics of one game aside, I think that consoles and PC's are two different platforms that serve different needs. I just wish a console had as much tweakability as a PC and allowed the user to decide how to alter a game's appearance to fit their tastes, something besides different gamma settings.

 

[Ateo]

Originally posted by: josh6079
But graphics of one game aside, I think that consoles and PC's are two different platforms that serve different needs. I just wish a console had as much tweakability as a PC and allowed the user to decide how to alter a game's appearance to fit their tastes, something besides different gamma settings.

I think that would be hard, as unlike the PC where people have different hardware that offers different levels of preformance, and thus the option for tweaking in accordance with ones hardware preformance, the consoles games are "maxed out" from the begining and have no headroom for added/increased features such as AA and higher levels of AF.

 

[josh6079]

...the consoles games are "maxed out" from the begining and have no headroom for added/increased features such as AA and higher levels of AF.

And what does that say about consoles?

Even something as simple as being able to manually select and force a desired resolution would be great. I just prefer the flexibility of a PC and being able to improve the appearance of games I play. Someone else may prefer something different and that's fine. There's really no way to "settle a discussion" that is a clash of two peoples preferences.

However, if the argument is solely centered on the graphical aspects of the machines, the answer is clear so long as game developers keep forgetting about AA/AF and keep locking out features for users to tweak.

 

[Ateo]

Originally posted by: josh6079

...the consoles games are "maxed out" from the begining and have no headroom for added/increased features such as AA and higher levels of AF.

And what does that say about consoles?

Even something as simple as being able to manually select and force a desired resolution would be great. I just prefer the flexibility of a PC and being able to improve the appearance of games I play. Someone else may prefer something different and that's fine. There's really no way to "settle a discussion" that is a clash of two peoples preferences.

However, if the argument is solely centered on the graphical aspects of the machines, the answer is clear so long as game developers keep forgetting about AA/AF and keep locking out features for users to tweak.

I have never uttered anything in favour of consoles?

 

[40sTheme]

I think josh was just saying that the statement he quoted basically shows that consoles, although hyped to be ultra next-gen with amazing image quality, end up lagging behind in technological aspects.

 

[josh6079]

I have never uttered anything in favour of consoles?

Never said you did.

I think josh was just saying that the statement he quoted basically shows that consoles, although hyped to be ultra next-gen with amazing image quality, end up lagging behind in visual aspects.

Fixed. The tech in the Xbox 360 and PS3 sound good, but for some reason or another neither have been able to produce as high quality of graphics as an equivalent PC so far. Whether they have that ability or not, I don't know. It's hard to say when the features enabling better graphics are locked out of the users control.

 

[40sTheme]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: Pugnate
I am having a chat with a couple of blokes who insist that the Xbox 360 can match a high end PC's graphics for years to come. Even though I've shown links of the developers of Crysis saying the 360 can't do a DX 10 level of Crysis, they keep insisting it is possible, and they feel that a 360 will basically match a high end PC for years to come.

Their argument is that Oblivion didn't look as good on the 360 as Gears of War. Well that's obviously because one is an open structured RPG and the other is just a FPS.

Anyway your thoughts?

400$ vs 1500$ emmmm I pick the 400$ one

Until you have to buy a $3000 HDTV for it to look good at all. If you don't play RS:V on an HDTV, it is terribly, terribly ugly. Everything is downresed and blaaugh.

 

[Zebo]

I happen to agree on the GOW, just awesome GFX...however Gears of War is a brand new game what do you guys expect? When it hits PC, which should be anytime now, I'm sure it will look better like all games do on the PC and it will get over 30FPS which is unbearable IME.

GFX and gameplay is all subjective anyway but what I like most about PC gaming experiance is the selection..much wider. Games I love like HOMM5 and literally 10's of other games just arnt on xbox.

It's all good.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
The "upgraded" 360 isn't going to change its processors or memory (by change I mean the specs as they are going to have a die shrink) which is what dictates performance, not the size of the hard drive or it having an HDMI port. This has nothing to do with having a better system, it just adds features that quite a few people don't even need. I think Bill Gates himself has said that it won't require a new system to have IPTV.

I'm fairly confident that they could get Crysis running on a 360. Yes they'd have to compromise it in some way (if that other story about it doing 60fps at 2048x1536 resolution on a single 8800GTX is correct then running it at 720p would allow for a good bit of eye candy) but it'd still be a great looking game. The last thing Crytek said is that they aren't working on it at the moment because they're trying to finish the game and trying to port it would take away from their ability to make it as good as they want it to be. If it turns out to be as good as it looks to be, then I'm confident we'll see it on either the 360 or the PS3 or possibly both. Companies go where the money is, and there's a lot of money there. Considering their connection with EA, I'd say there's a very good chance we'll see Crysis (and possibly games based on the engine) on consoles.

Here's an article that addresses the consoles too weak statement. Text

Explain how they are going to cram more than 1GB of game code into 512MB of xbox 360?

Gut the textures, scale back the geometry, move the clip planes WAY in.

It simply wont look as good.

you quoted the link - READ it Text

During Leipzig, Crytek senior game designer Bernd Diemer claimed Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 were too weak to handle Crysis. Now, slightly down the totem pole, Crytek lead artist Michael Khaimzon is saying he's confident that Crysis could be ported. "I don't think there would be any problem to convert anything we work on to the next-gen consoles . . . "

told you so

expect Crysis ported to Xbox and PS3

EA is the publisher

and as others have said - FORGET Oblivion ... - there is NO game running on PC that can *touch* the gfx of GoW ... we're gonna have to wait for a new game to *compare*

Did you understand my post?

I didnt say it wasnt possible, i said it will look substantially worse.

let me try again ... it WON'T look any worse
it is a DX9c game !

GoW looks better than ANY pc game [period]

I didnt disagree with you, why are you always looking for an argument?

Do you REALLY think UT2007 is going to look better on the 360?

The only reason it looks better is the best engine isnt out for PC yet.

I love GoW, but youre semi-retarded if you think it wont look better with 2GB more system memory available on the average high end PC.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: josh6079

*first of all*

have you actually *seen* GoW on a big LCD?

Yes.

I've also played more extensively on a 2007WFP I have and it still looked subpar compared to other games.

There is literally no AA, and I assume that there is hardly any AF - if any at all. Let's not even start with the amount of shimmering that's apparent due to lack of those features.

But graphics of one game aside, I think that consoles and PC's are two different platforms that serve different needs. I just wish a console had as much tweakability as a PC and allowed the user to decide how to alter a game's appearance to fit their tastes, something besides different gamma settings.

Gears of War has FSAA on at all times.

 

[JRW]

Originally posted by: josh6079

*first of all*

have you actually *seen* GoW on a big LCD?

Yes.

I've also played more extensively on a 2007WFP I have and it still looked subpar compared to other games.

There is literally no AA, and I assume that there is hardly any AF - if any at all. Let's not even start with the amount of shimmering that's apparent due to lack of those features.

Er... I see no shimmering here on my Sony 34XBR960 HDTV (CRT) and NEC 20WMGX2 LCD, Also FSAA *IS* enabled in GOW. The game is fantastic looking and most impressive on my CRT HDTV due to its superior black levels.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
The "upgraded" 360 isn't going to change its processors or memory (by change I mean the specs as they are going to have a die shrink) which is what dictates performance, not the size of the hard drive or it having an HDMI port. This has nothing to do with having a better system, it just adds features that quite a few people don't even need. I think Bill Gates himself has said that it won't require a new system to have IPTV.

I'm fairly confident that they could get Crysis running on a 360. Yes they'd have to compromise it in some way (if that other story about it doing 60fps at 2048x1536 resolution on a single 8800GTX is correct then running it at 720p would allow for a good bit of eye candy) but it'd still be a great looking game. The last thing Crytek said is that they aren't working on it at the moment because they're trying to finish the game and trying to port it would take away from their ability to make it as good as they want it to be. If it turns out to be as good as it looks to be, then I'm confident we'll see it on either the 360 or the PS3 or possibly both. Companies go where the money is, and there's a lot of money there. Considering their connection with EA, I'd say there's a very good chance we'll see Crysis (and possibly games based on the engine) on consoles.

Here's an article that addresses the consoles too weak statement. Text

Explain how they are going to cram more than 1GB of game code into 512MB of xbox 360?

Gut the textures, scale back the geometry, move the clip planes WAY in.

It simply wont look as good.

you quoted the link - READ it Text

During Leipzig, Crytek senior game designer Bernd Diemer claimed Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 were too weak to handle Crysis. Now, slightly down the totem pole, Crytek lead artist Michael Khaimzon is saying he's confident that Crysis could be ported. "I don't think there would be any problem to convert anything we work on to the next-gen consoles . . . "

told you so

expect Crysis ported to Xbox and PS3

EA is the publisher

and as others have said - FORGET Oblivion ... - there is NO game running on PC that can *touch* the gfx of GoW ... we're gonna have to wait for a new game to *compare*

Did you understand my post?

I didnt say it wasnt possible, i said it will look substantially worse.

let me try again ... it WON'T look any worse
it is a DX9c game !

GoW looks better than ANY pc game [period]

I didnt disagree with you, why are you always looking for an argument?

Do you REALLY think UT2007 is going to look better on the 360?

The only reason it looks better is the best engine isnt out for PC yet.

I love GoW, butyoure semi-retarded if you think it wont look better with 2GB more system memory available on the average high end PC.

for someone who isn't looking for an argument ... you're pretty aggressive

and rude

and who the hell really knows? ... since neither are out

and you're completely retarded if you think being 'rude and loud' will change my opinion

personally, i think the guys who think GoW are inferior to the PC's gfx are either blind or have crappy LCDs and can't even tell AA or the lack thereof

 

[bamacre]

We should have this discussion in two years.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: bamacre
We should have this discussion in two years.

there won't be any then

the PC *wins* ...



but then after two years we will be talking about the *upcoming* Xb0x720, PS4 and Wii-Wii
:Q

 

[JRW]

What if we look at it from a "Which system has more quality games worth owning" perspective ... PC loses big time and it only seems to be getting worse

US PC Game Software Sales:

1998 - $1.7 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: bamacre
We should have this discussion in two years.

there won't be any then

the PC *wins* ...



but then after two years we will be talking about the *upcoming* Xb0x720, PS4 and Wii-Wii
:Q

I'm not playing with anyone's Wii-Wii.

 

[josh6079]

Gears of War has FSAA on at all times.

If it does, it's 2x.

Er... I see no shimmering here on my Sony 34XBR960 HDTV (CRT) and NEC 20WMGX2 LCD...

It's pretty awful actually. I saw a good amount of it.

Also FSAA *IS* enabled in GOW.

If it does, it's 2x.

I'm not trying to concentrate on GoW here. The fact that console "lock-boxes" don't allow one to change graphical features such as AA/AF, resolution, particle detail, shader detail, etc. cause inferior graphics more often than not when compared against current PC's.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
The "upgraded" 360 isn't going to change its processors or memory (by change I mean the specs as they are going to have a die shrink) which is what dictates performance, not the size of the hard drive or it having an HDMI port. This has nothing to do with having a better system, it just adds features that quite a few people don't even need. I think Bill Gates himself has said that it won't require a new system to have IPTV.

I'm fairly confident that they could get Crysis running on a 360. Yes they'd have to compromise it in some way (if that other story about it doing 60fps at 2048x1536 resolution on a single 8800GTX is correct then running it at 720p would allow for a good bit of eye candy) but it'd still be a great looking game. The last thing Crytek said is that they aren't working on it at the moment because they're trying to finish the game and trying to port it would take away from their ability to make it as good as they want it to be. If it turns out to be as good as it looks to be, then I'm confident we'll see it on either the 360 or the PS3 or possibly both. Companies go where the money is, and there's a lot of money there. Considering their connection with EA, I'd say there's a very good chance we'll see Crysis (and possibly games based on the engine) on consoles.

Here's an article that addresses the consoles too weak statement. Text

Explain how they are going to cram more than 1GB of game code into 512MB of xbox 360?

Gut the textures, scale back the geometry, move the clip planes WAY in.

It simply wont look as good.

you quoted the link - READ it Text

During Leipzig, Crytek senior game designer Bernd Diemer claimed Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 were too weak to handle Crysis. Now, slightly down the totem pole, Crytek lead artist Michael Khaimzon is saying he's confident that Crysis could be ported. "I don't think there would be any problem to convert anything we work on to the next-gen consoles . . . "

told you so

expect Crysis ported to Xbox and PS3

EA is the publisher

and as others have said - FORGET Oblivion ... - there is NO game running on PC that can *touch* the gfx of GoW ... we're gonna have to wait for a new game to *compare*

Did you understand my post?

I didnt say it wasnt possible, i said it will look substantially worse.

let me try again ... it WON'T look any worse
it is a DX9c game !

GoW looks better than ANY pc game [period]

I didnt disagree with you, why are you always looking for an argument?

Do you REALLY think UT2007 is going to look better on the 360?

The only reason it looks better is the best engine isnt out for PC yet.

I love GoW, butyoure semi-retarded if you think it wont look better with 2GB more system memory available on the average high end PC.

for someone who isn't looking for an argument ... you're pretty aggressive

and rude

and who the hell really knows? ... since neither are out

and you're completely retarded if you think being 'rude and loud' will change my opinion

personally, i think the guys who think GoW are inferior to the PC's gfx are either blind or have crappy LCDs and can't even tell AA or the lack thereof

I just wish they wouldve launched it on PC simultaneously.

Im not trying to be rude man, youre just always arguing with everyone and it sets me off, especially since i was semi-agreeing with you, but pointing out places where the consoles are weak.

 

[Smilin]

"For years to come"?????

That's a joke right?

At BEST it's a tie right now but I don't even think it's that.

I'm running a 7950gx2 on a dual core, 2gig box, dual raptors in raid. My rig blows away the 360 at Oblivion.

3D shooters? I pull 1600x1200 4xAA 16xFSAA at 85fps on every 3D shooter I own. The refresh rate of a TV can't reach 85fps let alone the 16x12 resolution. How is this even a comparison?


I'm not even running the latest gear and I'm already faster. Try a 8800 with a Core2duo.



end of thread (for the non zealots at least ;P )

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: JRW
What if we look at it from a "Which system has more quality games worth owning" perspective ... PC loses big time and it only seems to be getting worse

US PC Game Software Sales:

1998 - $1.7 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

Still a billion dollar market in the US alone... no one is going to walk away from a billion dollar market.

With Burning Crusade just out, Crysis rolling up soon, and many other major titles on the way... 2007 will be a good year for PC game sales.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: bamacre
We should have this discussion in two years.

there won't be any then

the PC *wins* ...



but then after two years we will be talking about the *upcoming* Xb0x720, PS4 and Wii-Wii:Q

:laugh: Wii-Wii. That just made my day. You deserve a cookie for that.



I just heard that Starcraft2 might be released next year on DX10. Then theres rumours on diablo3 in the works. Ids new game engine, Crysis, UT2007 and the other titles soon to hit, including S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

I think its going to get more interesting in 2007 and the years to come.

 

[luigionlsd]

People are still arguing this? Come on!! Remember when it launched, and Quake 4 360 vs. PC looked so much worse? Well newer games like Oblivion just hit home the point that PC >>>>>>>> 360. Put this thing to rest.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Gears of War has FSAA on at all times.

If it does, it's 2x.

Er... I see no shimmering here on my Sony 34XBR960 HDTV (CRT) and NEC 20WMGX2 LCD...

It's pretty awful actually. I saw a good amount of it.

Also FSAA *IS* enabled in GOW.

If it does, it's 2x.

I'm not trying to concentrate on GoW here. The fact that console "lock-boxes" don't allow one to change graphical features such as AA/AF, resolution, particle detail, shader detail, etc. cause inferior graphics more often than not when compared against current PC's.

I have to agree with you here Josh, i cannot see even 2xAA. In fact i cannot see ANY AA in ANY game.

AF is pretty much non existent, for the fact i can see the lines of filtering very distinctly.

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH

Originally posted by: JRW
What if we look at it from a "Which system has more quality games worth owning" perspective ... PC loses big time and it only seems to be getting worse

US PC Game Software Sales:

1998 - $1.7 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (45 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

Still a billion dollar market in the US alone... no one is going to walk away from a billion dollar market.

With Burning Crusade just out, Crysis rolling up soon, and many other major titles on the way... 2007 will be a good year for PC game sales.

Well if anyone has heard, WoW BC has sold 2.4 MILLION copies in 24 HOURS. Fastest selling game ever!!!

Its not that PC Sales are going down, its just everyone is playing WoW only.... Grrrr....