Seems like this country is going down the drain.

[buckshot24]

That does not answer his question at all... Trump has gone to great lengths to lie about Mateen in an attempt to pat himself on the back and paint himself as the "See, I was right candidate". Despite the fact he was reading from a teleprompter, how did such a blatant lie make it into his scripted speech? According to a copy of his remarks, Trump ad-libbed the line... I'll quote it again:

“The killer, whose name I will not use or ever say, was born in Afghan, of Afghan parents, who immigrated to the United States"

His question was ridiculous, Alex Jonesesque chem trail level conspiracy nonsense.

He made other flubs during that speech so I wouldn't get too carried away with this one. It's like he started saying he was born in Afghanistan and stopped mid Afghanistan. It was a flub.

 

[umbrella39]

His question was ridiculous, Alex Jonesesque chem trail level conspiracy nonsense.

He made other flubs during that speech so I wouldn't get too carried away with this one. It's like he started saying he was born in Afghanistan and stopped mid Afghanistan. It was a flub.

Flubs is putting it very kindly. I'm pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing when he implied Mateen was just the kind of person Trump has been trying to keep out, foreign born and all. That wasn't the only flub... For example:

1) Trump: There’s no screening for refugees coming to the US
Trump is wrong: There is an extensive, onerous screening process for refugees
who come to America.

2) Trump criticizes Libya intervention, supported it himself
Trump has repeatedly characterized Libya as a unique failure of President Obama
and Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy. But he actively supported that intervention, even
though he's spent much of his candidacy pretending he didn't.

3) Trump: Clinton wants to admit "hundreds of thousands" of refugees to the US
Trump is wrong here as well: Clinton has only called for increasing the number of Syrian refugees by 65,000.

4) Trump: The Orlando shooter was "born this Afghan"
Again, a lie. Born in NY just like him.

5) Trump: "Large numbers" of Somali refugees joining ISIS
This dramatically misrepresents the number of Somali refugees from the US who have joined ISIS, which a New York Times story pegs at no more than 15.

6) Trump: Obama’s "famous apology tour" created ISIS
ISIS’s precursor, Al-Qaeda in Iraq, emerged in 2004 to resist the American
occupation. Led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian, the group consisted of Sunnis,
many of them disgruntled former Iraqi soldiers left without paychecks after the Bush
administration disbanded the Iraqi army.

ISIS was created by the Iraqi coalition authority, which ousted the entire
government of Iraq. It was when 30,000 individuals who are part of the Iraqi
military were forced out. They had no employment, they had no income, yet they
were left with access to all the same arms and weapons."

The Bush administration's mismanagement of Iraq encouraged thousands of skilled
Iraqis to take their expertise to the anti-American insurgency that eventually became
the Islamic State.

7) Trump: Hillary Clinton wants to ban guns
Clinton has not called for anything remotely resembling a ban on guns — she wants
to ban assault weapons but has otherwise not called for a gun ban. A policy that I
do not agree with her on.

8) Trump’s criticism on pushing for regime change in Syria
As with his initial approval of the Libya invasion, Trump has grossly distorted his
record on Syria. He once called for a "big, beautiful safe zone" in the country.
The weirder, specific problem here is the knock on Clinton and Obama for creating
ISIS by "pushing for the overthrow of the regime in Syria" — when Trump has
himself called for ground troops in Syria.

He's a flubber alright...

 

[buckshot24]

Flubs is putting it very kindly. I'm pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing when he implied Mateen was just the kind of person Trump has been trying to keep out, foreign born and all. That wasn't the only flub... For example:

Think about what you're suggesting. He'd have to be a complete moron to think this guys birthplace wouldn't actually get out. EVERYBODY knows where he was born. This is like Obama talking about his "muslim faith". It was a mistake, anything else is just cooky.

He made other mistakes during this speech, I guess he really meant those ones as well.

 

[werepossum]

They're targeting our faucets now? Hell no!

They can have my faucet over my cold, dead, clean hands!

LMAO!

 

[umbrella39]

Think about what you're suggesting. He'd have to be a complete moron to think this guys birthplace wouldn't actually get out. EVERYBODY knows where he was born. This is like Obama talking about his "muslim faith". It was a mistake, anything else is just cooky.

He made other mistakes during this speech, I guess he really meant those ones as well.

I don't think I am suggesting anything... I am calling him out. He clearly knew what he was saying was a lie and despite what you are claiming was just a flub, his base of supporters who agree with him on his Muslim banning policies did not collectivly all know Mateen was an American born in NY at the time of his speech nor will they ever. If you check politifact he has a long history of lying during his speeches and the majority of his supporters take his word as the gospel. They are not now or even going to do the research and fact check him.

 

[buckshot24]

I don't think I am suggesting anything... I am calling him out. He clearly knew what he was saying was a lie and despite what you are claiming was just a flub, his base of supporters who agree with him on his Muslim banning policies did not collectivly all know Mateen was an American born in NY at the time of his speech nor will they ever. If you check politifact he has a long history of lying during his speeches and the majority of his supporters take his word as the gospel. They are not now or even going to do the research and fact check him.

Was "Afghan" a flub or a real place? Maybe he was talking about the blanket?

Trump has made otherwise sane people go insane, it is pretty amazing.

 

[werepossum]

I think we're seeing some evidence that, for the time being, we have plateaued economically while the rest of the world catches up (i.e. through off shoring). Decline in actual real wages is quite small, and we did just come out of a terrible recession. Certainly there has been an increase in income inequality, but statistics show that it is more to do with the rich getting richer while the rest of us stay about the same.

I think that's a bit over alarmist.

I think Subyman is essentially correct. We are obsessed with apocalyptic scenarios, be they economic, biblical, or natural. This has been true in every generation. For example, people as far back as the 70's were predicting hyperinflation and total economic collapse. I'm almost 50 and I can remember as far back as when I was a child, hearing adults complaining that "this country is going to hell in a hand basket." We're always predicting one form of doom or another. It's an American tradition.

Perhaps it is because when you're on top, the perception that there is no where to go but down. Also, those who have are always obsessed with losing what they have. And we are victims of over-inflated expectations, fantasies of wealth and power projected by popular culture and Madison Avenue. Hence, as adults we are are bound to be disappointed and cynical.

Agreed. We just elected a black President twice; when I was a kid, he wouldn't even have been allowed to drink from the cooled water fountain, or sit on the main floor in a movie hall, or attend "regular" school. When I was a kid, most people I knew owned maybe six pairs of pants and some overalls; I own maybe forty pairs of jeans and I'm barely middle middle class. Something like 40+% of people in poverty own an automobile, and our average person below the poverty level has more square footage than the average European. There are things that really bother me, things that I find worrisome, but overall, life is pretty freakin' sweet in America. Sure, there are nations with more disposable income - but we've got more room. And more freedom. We've just become accustomed to buying things we don't with money we haven't got to impress people we don't even like.

 

[jackstar7]

Guys, have you noticed the moon is shrinking?

 

[MajinCry]

Unless you're a Native American, then the US has been shit for a couple centuries, considering all the genocide and rape.

 

[werepossum]

Guys, have you noticed the moon is shrinking?

When our media constantly beams Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump out into space, it's to be expected that other bodies will edge away.

 

[Jhhnn]

First, no, I'm not a Trump supporter. I've said many times I'm not a fan of his at all. Given two horrible choices, I view him as the lesser of two evils, but that doesn't make me a Trump supporter.

So, supporting him with your vote isn't supporting him?

Like wow, man. You must have put a lot of thought into that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Unless you're a Native American, then the US has been shit for a couple centuries, considering all the genocide and rape.

That basically ended ~100 years ago. Bigotry has persisted a lot longer wrt native americans & a lot of other out groups. The extent to which it has diminished is what upsets some people. They need bigotry to bolster their self image. Gotta be better than a whole class of somebodies. It's easier if they look different.

 

[MajinCry]

That basically ended ~100 years ago. Bigotry has persisted a lot longer wrt native americans & a lot of other out groups. The extent to which it has diminished is what upsets some people. They need bigotry to bolster their self image. Gotta be better than a whole class of somebodies. It's easier if they look different.

Not really man. I actually just made an imgur post detailing the shit that still goes on; the mass rape, non-Natives being able to rape and commit crimes with impunity on Native land, the rampant human trafficking, the insane racial-bias in crimes committed towards 'em (at least 70% of all crimes victimizing a Native American is committed by a non-Native American), etc. etc.

I highly advise you to read it. I made sure to provide each and every source I had at my disposal. http://imgur.com/gallery/MCEgC


Edit: If ya don't like imgur, I have a more terse 'n' condensed post on Anandtech detailing some of that stuff. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=38063292#post38063292

 

[Jhhnn]

Not really man. I actually just made an imgur post detailing the shit that still goes on; the mass rape, non-Natives being able to rape and commit crimes with impunity on Native land, the rampant human trafficking, the insane racial-bias in crimes committed towards 'em (at least 70% of all crimes victimizing a Native American is committed by a non-Native American), etc. etc.

I highly advise you to read it. I made sure to provide each and every source I had at my disposal. http://imgur.com/gallery/MCEgC


Edit: If ya don't like imgur, I have a more terse 'n' condensed post on Anandtech detailing some of that stuff. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=38063292#post38063292

Which is completely off topic. It's not like bigotry towards native americans has intensified or it's the reason that the usual nay-sayers think America is going to Hell in a handbasket.

 

[MajinCry]

Was jus' givin' the ol' other view, ya ken. "Obama's gonna ruin America!" "The Liberals are going to destroy America!" etc. etc.

Meanwhile, the Native Americans are been pretty fuckin' destroyed. Want to fix America? Help the innocent, and help victims. There's an entire race that is strugglin' to survive, an' Americans don't give a tossed donkey's bollocks about 'em.

 

[Paratus]

I get that, but it doesn't change the point. The point is, for the first time in the history of this country, each successive generation does not do better than the one before it. That seems like a very strong indication that the country is either in decline or at the very least no longer going in the right direction. We're not talking about a blip over a few years of a bad economy, we're talking multiple decades now.



Agreed 100%.



"We're all doooomed, get in your bunker!" is alarmist, but why is saying we are heading in the wrong direction by pretty much every metric alarmist?



I haven't seen anyone talking about anything apocalyptic. What we're seeing is pretty much a country that's starting to slowly decay from within. It's in decline, we just don't know how quick that decline is going to be yet.



..... and in a lot of ways, they were right. In many other ways, they were not.



I don't buy that for a second, it's not just perception or inflated expectations or imagined decline. Aside from the general notion that things are "going the wrong way" or not, there is very real measurable quantifiable decline in many ways. As an example, life expectancy increase has stalled in the US and has dropped considerably behind other developed nations. Another example is our levels of income have dropped compared to prior generations, and at the same time the amount of time available for parents to spend with their kids has decreased significantly because both parents now have to hold a full time job to achieve a similar income to what prior generations had from one parent. We have more people in jail now than ever before. We have more people in poverty now than ever before. These are just examples, but it shows this is not just imagination, expectations or some notion of wealth and power. This is real decline.

There are many areas of progress that one could point as a counter argument, but overall it's very hard to claim that the US isn't in decline.

The reasons for the decline is a whole other discussion of course

It seems like your gut feel might be right about some of those issues. You know me, I like data so let's take a look

While it looks like the percentage of those in poverty has remained roughly the same over a generation the absolute number of poor are definitely increasing.

Looking at the median income rates it also looks like you are on to something. The rate for men has basically been static for a generation. The only increase is due to women coming into the workforce.

It also looks like you are correct that incarceration rates have exploded over the last generation. Although some of that can be traced to the increasing number of poor people as poverty and crime are correlated.

Life expectancy and poverty are also correlated

So it looks like a lot of your concern is well placed. However in discussing whether the US is moving in the right direction we can't just look at the costs. We need to look at what we've gained.

As a prime example:

We've increased the number of billionaires by 10 fold, from 41 to over 420!

If we look back at the compensation rate chart we can see that over the last generation productivity has gone up 80% but income hasn't. That's pure profit and it's helped drive our increase in billionaires and millionaires.

Now if some of that productivity had been used to increase compensation over the last 30 years then we'd probably have several million less poor people and a few hundred thousand less incarcerated. We'd also have more people living longer and more households able to get by on a single income, but only at the cost of some of our billionaires.

Could you live in a country where business owners were kept from maximizing their profits through market forces or government intervention reducing the number of billionaires?

 

[umbrella39]

Was "Afghan" a flub or a real place? Maybe he was talking about the blanket?

Trump has made otherwise sane people go insane, it is pretty amazing.

What's pretty amazing is the lengths of disingenuousness Trump has made otherwise honest people go to excuse his lies. While you are consciously attempting to play the shell game and focus only on him not even knowing the country called Afghanistan, most people with integrity will continue to pay attention to the important part and press him on why he lied and said he wasn't born in NY, NY, USA just like he was...

“The killer, whose name I will not use or ever say, was born in Afghan..."

There is no confusing his intent...

 

[sandorski]

It's time to turn to Jesus America! Grant he and his family Amnesty, make him a Tax Payer.

 

[Jhhnn]

Could you live in country where business oweners were kept from maximizing thier profits through market forces or government intervention reducing the number of billionaires?

We did, prior to trickle down Reaganomic goodness. Those were principles of New Deal policy that held sway in the post WW2 period.

 

[HeXen]

Each new generation that comes along, the older generation suddenly thinks were going to hell in a hand basket. According to history, America has been through far worse..far worse.
It'll be ok, you might be dead but the sun will still rise in the morning despite it all.

 

[Paratus]

We did, prior to trickle down Reaganomic goodness. Those were principles of New Deal policy that held sway in the post WW2 period.

I know, but it wasn't me who seems to be wondering why things seem to be going the wrong direction.

I'm worried about the same things Pokerguy is. I'm sure you are too. I'm sure you and I see pretty much eye to eye on what the cause is and what a solution might look like. I'm not sure a solution that impacts the investor/business owner class would be palatable to Pokerguy regardless if it improved the nation overall.

 

[Subyman]

I know, but it wasn't me who seems to be wondering why things seem to be going the wrong direction.

I'm worried about the same things Pokerguy is. I'm sure you are too. I'm sure you and I see pretty much eye to eye on what the cause is and what a solution might look like. I'm not sure a solution that impacts the investor/business owner class would be palatable to Pokerguy regardless if it improved the nation overall.

Certainly electing a billionaire megalomaniac isn't the correct course of action. Bernie is the choice if we wanted to get serious about wealth inequality.

 

[HeXen]

Wealth equality will never be allowed to happen..ever. It's a loser's dream is all.

 

[Jhhnn]

I know, but it wasn't me who seems to be wondering why things seem to be going the wrong direction.

I'm worried about the same things Pokerguy is. I'm sure you are too. I'm sure you and I see pretty much eye to eye on what the cause is and what a solution might look like. I'm not sure a solution that impacts the investor/business owner class would be palatable to Pokerguy regardless if it improved the nation overall.

Well, if the middle class keeps believing in economic theory that enables the looting of the economy via top down class warfare we'll keep on losing. It's what all the high sounding emotional free market rah-rah was designed to accomplish & what it has accomplished- the enormous concentration of wealth & income into the hands of very few people. It's a basic feature of improperly restrained capitalism.

It's the insurgency of the Plutocracy, an effort to free themselves of responsibility to any nation including this one.

 

[Paratus]

Certainly electing a billionaire megalomaniac isn't the correct course of action. Bernie is the choice if we wanted to get serious about wealth inequality.

Bernie certainly had the most to say on the subject. Not sure if he would have been able to do much with congress however. While she could get more done I think it's a concern of Hillary but how much of one...?