Schiff Issues Subpoena for Whistleblower Complaint Being Unlawfully Withheld

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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,036
10,657
136
The act of withholding the whistleblower report is a violation of the law regardless of the content.

Of course it is...But Trump and his cronies have had no problems ignoring the law..We'll see if that changes.

If our governmental system survives this episode, one consequence is going to be the development of a lot more explicit legislative checks on the executive, and probably judiciary checks on the legislature as well. We'll have actual laws, rather than just time-honored "protocols", requiring the POTUS to release his tax returns and blind-trust his assets and conform to a schedule for filling administrative positions and so forth.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
DOJ is the one that forced it to be withheld, and now we find out that Barr has been implicated in the phone call.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,679
10,408
136
Apparently the Senate has been told to expect the whistleblower complaint later today... no word if House/Schiff will get it at the same time???

Edit: Senate intel cmte, as per Cornyn—not the full Senate.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
Well the Mueller report cleared him of obstruction too.

I don't want to know how his mind works and I have no desire to engage in empathy. It is a shame that humans can become so twisted and worse that they can use that to their advantage with the gullible. We're too... human sometimes.
Mueller did not clear him. Barr refused to indict.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,477
12,606
136
Of course it is...But Trump and his cronies have had no problems ignoring the law..We'll see if that changes.

If our governmental system survives this episode, one consequence is going to be the development of a lot more explicit legislative checks on the executive, and probably judiciary checks on the legislature as well. We'll have actual laws, rather than just time-honored "protocols", requiring the POTUS to release his tax returns and blind-trust his assets and conform to a schedule for filling administrative positions and so forth.
Number 1. Presidents can be indicted explicitly!
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Mueller did not clear him. Barr refused to indict.
There was no clearing or exoneration to be done by Mueller or his report. He was to investigate and provide a recommendation on charges. The Mueller report ultimately concluded that there wasn't "Trump-Russia collusion" and the evidence didn't support obstruction charges.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
There was no clearing or exoneration to be done by Mueller or his report. He was to investigate and provide a recommendation on charges. The Mueller report ultimately concluded that there wasn't "Trump-Russia collusion" and the evidence didn't support obstruction charges.

That's not true. Mueller made it clear that DoJ rules disallow indictment of a sitting president. He then went on to provide 10 instances of potential obstruction for which he could not exonerate the President. Barr has withheld the testimony & documentation necessary for congress to make a determination as to the merits of each one.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
That's not true. Mueller made it clear that DoJ rules disallow indictment of a sitting president. He then went on to provide 10 instances of potential obstruction for which he could not exonerate the President. Barr has withheld the testimony & documentation necessary for congress to make a determination as to the merits of each one.
You may want to revisit what Mueller's official statement was about the indictment stuff. The report did address 10 potential obstruction complaints but then also stated that the evidence didn't support them. Mueller specifically testified that he didn't agree with any of the Democrat committee members' conclusion about Trump having obstructed justice. I watched a lot of the testimony, read a fair amount of the report and the transcripts of the questioning.

So are you saying that AG Barr has illegally withheld information about the Mueller investigation from Congress? That is a big claim. I bet Adam Schiff let you into his secret evidence locker and you were able to get a glimpse of all the damning materials.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,727
17,377
136
You may want to revisit what Mueller's official statement was about the indictment stuff. The report did address 10 potential obstruction complaints but then also stated that the evidence didn't support them. Mueller specifically testified that he didn't agree with any of the Democrat committee members' conclusion about Trump having obstructed justice. I watched a lot of the testimony, read a fair amount of the report and the transcripts of the questioning.

So are you saying that AG Barr has illegally withheld information about the Mueller investigation from Congress? That is a big claim. I bet Adam Schiff let you into his secret evidence locker and you were able to get a glimpse of all the damning materials.

Lol! You are laughably wrong!
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,679
10,408
136
You may want to revisit what Mueller's official statement was about the indictment stuff. The report did address 10 potential obstruction complaints but then also stated that the evidence didn't support them. Mueller specifically testified that he didn't agree with any of the Democrat committee members' conclusion about Trump having obstructed justice. I watched a lot of the testimony, read a fair amount of the report and the transcripts of the questioning.

So are you saying that AG Barr has illegally withheld information about the Mueller investigation from Congress? That is a big claim. I bet Adam Schiff let you into his secret evidence locker and you were able to get a glimpse of all the damning materials.
Wow...so wrong. No wonder you think the Mueller report was a nothingburger. That's not at all what Mueller wrote or said--are you confusing Mueller with Barr?

Mueller laid out the 10 instances of obstruction and all the evidence, and said it was not up to him to determine whether or not they were crimes, because he was following DOJ OLC guidance that the President could not be indicted in office. He specifically sought to avoid indictments at the START of his investigation. In fact, he didn't even want to hint whether or not Trump committed a crime. Mueller very clearly stated that his office would "not preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct"--i.e. he was punting to Congress.

Because I doubt you ever read the actual report, re-read Mueller's final statement wrt obstruction:

"And in the second volume, the report describes the results and analysis of our obstruction of justice investigation involving the president. The order appointing me special counsel authorized us to investigate actions that could obstruct the investigation. We conducted that investigation, and we kept the office of the acting attorney general apprised of the progress of our work. And as set forth in the report, after that investigation if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime we would have said so.

We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime. The introduction to the Volume II of our report explains that decision. It explains that under long-standing department policy, a president can not be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. That is unconstitutional. Even if the charge is kept under seal and hidden from public view, that too is prohibited.

The Special Counsel's Office is part of the Department of Justice, and by regulation it was bound by that department policy. Charging the president with a crime was, therefore, not an option we could consider.

The department's written opinion explaining the policy makes several important points that further informed our handling of the obstruction investigation. Those points are summarized in our report, and I will describe two of them for you.

First, the opinion explicitly permits the investigation of a sitting president because it is important to preserve evidence while memories are fresh and documents available. Among other things, that evidence could be used if there were co-conspirators who could be charged now.

And second, the opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than the criminal justice system to formally accuse a sitting president of wrongdoing.

And beyond department policy, we were guided by principles of fairness. It would be unfair to potentially — it would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge.

So that was Justice Department policy. Those were the principles under which we operated, and from them, we concluded that we would — would not reach a determination one way or the other about whether the president committed a crime. That is the office's — that is the office's final position, and we will not comment on any other conclusions or hypotheticals about the president."
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
Wow...so wrong. No wonder you think the Mueller report was a nothingburger. That's not at all what Mueller wrote or said--are you confusing Mueller with Barr?

Mueller laid out the 10 instances of obstruction and all the evidence, and said it was not up to him to determine whether or not they were crimes, because he was following DOJ OLC guidance that the President could not be indicted in office. He specifically sought to avoid indictments at the START of his investigation. In fact, he didn't even want to hint whether or not Trump committed a crime. Mueller very clearly stated that his office would "not preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct"--i.e. he was punting to Congress.

Because I doubt you ever read the actual report, re-read Mueller's final statement wrt obstruction:

"And in the second volume, the report describes the results and analysis of our obstruction of justice investigation involving the president. The order appointing me special counsel authorized us to investigate actions that could obstruct the investigation. We conducted that investigation, and we kept the office of the acting attorney general apprised of the progress of our work. And as set forth in the report, after that investigation if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime we would have said so.

We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime. The introduction to the Volume II of our report explains that decision. It explains that under long-standing department policy, a president can not be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. That is unconstitutional. Even if the charge is kept under seal and hidden from public view, that too is prohibited.

The Special Counsel's Office is part of the Department of Justice, and by regulation it was bound by that department policy. Charging the president with a crime was, therefore, not an option we could consider.

The department's written opinion explaining the policy makes several important points that further informed our handling of the obstruction investigation. Those points are summarized in our report, and I will describe two of them for you.

First, the opinion explicitly permits the investigation of a sitting president because it is important to preserve evidence while memories are fresh and documents available. Among other things, that evidence could be used if there were co-conspirators who could be charged now.

And second, the opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than the criminal justice system to formally accuse a sitting president of wrongdoing.

And beyond department policy, we were guided by principles of fairness. It would be unfair to potentially — it would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge.

So that was Justice Department policy. Those were the principles under which we operated, and from them, we concluded that we would — would not reach a determination one way or the other about whether the president committed a crime. That is the office's — that is the office's final position, and we will not comment on any other conclusions or hypotheticals about the president."
Essentially the Mueller investigation was hamstrung from the get go by alleged "policies and opinions" which have no legal basis or have ever actually ever been tested.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,745
16,062
146
You may want to revisit what Mueller's official statement was about the indictment stuff. The report did address 10 potential obstruction complaints but then also stated that the evidence didn't support them. Mueller specifically testified that he didn't agree with any of the Democrat committee members' conclusion about Trump having obstructed justice. I watched a lot of the testimony, read a fair amount of the report and the transcripts of the questioning.

So are you saying that AG Barr has illegally withheld information about the Mueller investigation from Congress? That is a big claim. I bet Adam Schiff let you into his secret evidence locker and you were able to get a glimpse of all the damning materials.

Brandon. How do you think we should treat people who lie about things already proven factual?
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
You may want to revisit what Mueller's official statement was about the indictment stuff. The report did address 10 potential obstruction complaints but then also stated that the evidence didn't support them. Mueller specifically testified that he didn't agree with any of the Democrat committee members' conclusion about Trump having obstructed justice. I watched a lot of the testimony, read a fair amount of the report and the transcripts of the questioning.

LOL. Only three options here, either 1) you're full of shit about having read/watched and are just regurgitating right wing talking points, 2) you're an idiot, 3) you're just lying.

None of your conclusion is true. Please, provide us links to corroborate.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
We're having closed door testimony on why the complaint wasn't sent to Congress as required by law. Once the DOJ had it they substituted their judgement, something that they aren't legally entitled to do.

It's a coverup and Barr has some interesting questions to answer about it. My question is if he realizes just how deep he is in it all and will comply or potentially go to prison at a later date.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,231
55,778
136
One other interesting note here is that part of what Trump was pressing Ukraine OB is CrowdStrike, which is about the DNC server hack.

He’s still trying to clear Russia of its 2016 interference. Jesus Christ what does Putin have on him.
 

ewdotson

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2011
1,295
1,520
136
Wow...so wrong. No wonder you think the Mueller report was a nothingburger. That's not at all what Mueller wrote or said--are you confusing Mueller with Barr?

Mueller laid out the 10 instances of obstruction and all the evidence, and said it was not up to him to determine whether or not they were crimes, because he was following DOJ OLC guidance that the President could not be indicted in office.
And even on the matter of "collusion" between Russia and the Trump campaign, the report hardly "concluded that there wasn't "Trump-Russia collusion"". From the Report:

Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges....

Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference. [emphasis added] ...

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.

Accordingly, while this report embodies factual and legal determinations that the Office believes to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible, given these identified gaps, the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report. [emphasis added]
In short, what the report *actually* said was that they didn't have enough evidence to support a charge on the matter of criminal conspiracy, the Trump campaign obstructed the investigation, and please see Vol II for all the evidence of obstruction.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
We're having closed door testimony on why the complaint wasn't sent to Congress as required by law. Once the DOJ had it they substituted their judgement, something that they aren't legally entitled to do.

It's a coverup and Barr has some interesting questions to answer about it. My question is if he realizes just how deep he is in it all and will comply or potentially go to prison at a later date.

On NPR this morning they had the former Obama legal counsel for the DNI and he opined with a surprising amount of conviction there might be legal basis to have withheld the whistleblower report. I'll see if I can find a transcript that lays out his legal reasoning. That's obviously the tip of the iceberg and Trump has already said/done enough other things to get impeached even without the whistleblower report.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
On NPR this morning they had the former Obama legal counsel for the DNI and he opined with a surprising amount of conviction there might be legal basis to have withheld the whistleblower report. I'll see if I can find a transcript that lays out his legal reasoning. That's obviously the tip of the iceberg and Trump has already said/done enough other things to get impeached even without the whistleblower report.

I would love to have that guy up on the stand to explain the difference between "shall" and "may". That he's Obama's man doesn't change the law.
 
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