Schiff Issues Subpoena for Whistleblower Complaint Being Unlawfully Withheld

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,690
48,302
136
Republicans and Democrats both are playing a dangerous game. I guarantee you the bulk of Republican politicians do not like or want Trump. Both are colluding to keep him in office. Democrats because they fear the uncertain political effects of impeachment, uncertain effects of destabilizing Trump further, and are feeling comfortable about their numbers heading into election. Republicans because they realize none is currently electable going against Trump and don't know what would be left of the party if they actually try and eject him.

Pelosi is thinking Clinton impeachment and how it harmed the GOP in the next election. I'm not sure the comparison holds given that peoples opinion of Trump is so fixed it's basically fossilized at this point. I used to think there would be a greater degree of risk in impeaching him but I've come around to doubt that.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
"The people" don't care. "Americans are fat, dumb, and happy" to borrow a phrase of which my high school football coach was particularly fond. Not going anywhere.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,043
10,672
136
She is doing exactly what Republicans do, party over country based on a philosophical certainty that only retaining a Democrat majority in the house can save the country. It's a fascinating dilemma. If she does what is morally right, and impeach Trump who surely and certainly needs to be impeached to end the cycle of massive damage he has already done to the country, the brain dead in this country might vote out their newly elected Democrat Representatives and elect Republican ones. So doing the right thing will have a very bad result. On the other hand, if she does the utilitarian thing and foregoes moral action today, she risks the both sides reality of both parties caring only for their own best interests. The moral long term realization that a return of Republican control of the house would be a cataclysmic disaster, which I think would probably turn out to be a true disaster, will be lost on the brain dead, who could then make it happen.

Thus we seem to be in a moral dilemma. The more the Democrats strive to show the brain dead what an evil Trump really is, the more heat they generate among those who already see this, folk like yourself. They want action now, action that in a longer view might be disastrous.

But nobody can see the future or predict what for certain would be the best way to go.

So we are left with the Democrats trying to educate the American people they have a monster as Pres. while the more they do that and don't act the more they look like moral cowards. Not a really comfortable place to be.

So, should they abandon investigating Trump and stop feeding the moral outrage of those who are awake to who Trump really is, and stick with beating him on policy in 2020, or should they fucking speed up the investigations by indicting everybody in sight and start charging them with contempt of congress and fining their asses. In a long life of presenting what I call reality, I have proven in every cell of my body that when the news is something we don't want to hear, it is not the truth that gets embraced but the messenger that gets shot.

But regardless of what the truth may be or what the best course of action should be, I know that nothing will change the fact that what actually happens will happen mechanically. Everything will happen exactly as it must based on the average conscious level of evolution of the players. My hope is that my puny effort here advances that microscopically.

I agree with you. I used to be think impeachment was a huge risk, and I still do due to how the Republicans and the American people just don't care and seem to think this is the new normal. I still think the ultimate slap in the face to Trump is defeat at the ballot box. But it should be done and should have been done long ago.

I'll repost my response in post #253 and add to it with the reality of the electorate :

Trump is like the asshole in your rental house that you can't kick out.

Doesn't pay rent, shits all over the furniture, but he has a lease, so you have to go through the gears of justice, as slow as they turn. All the while he's also busy selling your furniture, but it's shat-on so it's not selling as well as before it was fouled. He has some buddies that harass the neighbors, but the cops never come because Trump knows the chief of police.

Repoter : "That sofa you showed us today, it looked like it almost had, like, shit on it"..

POTUS : I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

The next day:

Trump : "Of course I shit on the sofa, it was a wonderful shit and made the sofa more memorable."

Trumps Attorney : "Its not illegal to shit on a sofa, even if he didn't not do it there."

Later that same day:

Reporter 1 : "Next we'll be discussing the colour and texture of the shit on the sofa. How does it compare to previous Trump shits?"

Reporter 2 : "Tune in next, when we'll be having a panel discussion talking about exactly what this new sofa shit means. What is Trump trying to accomplish and what is the meaning behind these furniture shits?"

Me and You :"Why are we discussing shitting on furniture like it's a normal thing to do? it's time to impeach to stop this shitting"

Later that week:

Trump supporters are all shitting on their own furniture "Just to piss the Libtards off"
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Like the college Freedom Riders in the 60s? Like the anti war protestors in the 60s and 70s? Like the people promoting equality for women in the 60s and 70s (and on)? The anti Reagan activists in the 80s? Truly disgusting people I'm sure.

Hey, you want to paint with a wide brush, feel free. But it's not the brightest thing that you'll ever do. Take a couple of seconds to think about how societies actually work.

all those people turned into the "we like global warming, greed is good" crew
 
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snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,300
5,383
146
Just impeach this fucking piece of trash. Sheesh.


President Trump confirmed to reporters on the White House South Lawn Sunday that he discussed Joe Biden and his son during a phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25.
"The conversation I had was largely congratulatory, with largely corruption — all of the corruption taking place — largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden and his son creating to the corruption already in the Ukraine and Ukraine has got a lot of problems. The new president is saying that he's going to be able to rid the country of corruption, and I said that would be a great thing, we had a great conversation."
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
If I were to sympathize with the situation Schiff, Nadler and ultimately Pelosi find themselves in, they are probably still woefully short on facts to be comfortable with starting formal articles of impeachment based on this incident. Based on the NYT sources, Trump may not have made any direct ties between a Biden investigation and the military aid package (no “quid pro quo”) as if that really happened, it was likely handled through others (I.e. Giuliani).

However, they still have a ton of obstruction and Administration officials who are not following the law. I don’t know why they aren’t in front of a judge every single day asking for the release of this information in order to conduct their investigation. Not doing so makes it seem like this is all just political and “there’s no there there”.

This is icing on a very substantial cake. Pelosi may vote against impeachment if she ever allows it but there's more than enough already and has been. Nothing will cause Mitch to remove his comrade but screw it. Impeach and let history dump the Reps in the toilet.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,233
55,784
136
If the actions of Trump were actually about corruption in Ukraine then the people contacting the Ukrainian government would have been DOJ people, not Trump’s personal campaign lawyer.

Quid pro quo is entirely unnecessary. Trump was asking for a foreign government to intervene in our election on his behalf. That’s the beginning and end of it.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,031
2,886
136
If the actions of Trump were actually about corruption in Ukraine then the people contacting the Ukrainian government would have been DOJ people, not Trump’s personal campaign lawyer.

Quid pro quo is entirely unnecessary. Trump was asking for a foreign government to intervene in our election on his behalf. That’s the beginning and end of it.

Who here doesn't expect to find evidence that the complaint not reaching Congress is by Trump's direction? That would be both consciousness of guilt and obstruction in one.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
If the actions of Trump were actually about corruption in Ukraine then the people contacting the Ukrainian government would have been DOJ people, not Trump’s personal campaign lawyer.

Quid pro quo is entirely unnecessary. Trump was asking for a foreign government to intervene in our election on his behalf. That’s the beginning and end of it.
you really donj`t know that as a fact.....
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,233
55,784
136
Who here doesn't expect to find evidence that the complaint not reaching Congress is by Trump's direction? That would be both consciousness of guilt and obstruction in one.

Even if we don’t the consciousness of guilt is obvious from sending his personal lawyer on his behalf to pressure the Ukrainian government to investigate his enemies.
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
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Who here doesn't expect to find evidence that the complaint not reaching Congress is by Trump's direction? That would be both consciousness of guilt and obstruction in one.
But Republicans won't convict, so it really doesn't matter, does it?
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
If the Republicans want to defend the President extorting foreign powers to intervene in our election then let them make the case for that.
Totally agreed, of course they will and I have absolutely no faith in the American people to make them pay for it.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,914
6,791
126
Right you are. Just incredibly disappointing.
Alternatively, the American voters, not knowing their own asses from a hole in the ground, may never notice what politically opportunist cowards Democrats are by not impeaching and vote for them in 2020.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,749
16,034
136
Am I reading this correctly, Trump has all but admitted the call and on the topics of the Bidens? .... and he is like "so what?" about it?
Shiiiiiiite.
And Pelosi is still fumbling?


""The conversation I had was largely congratulatory, with largely corruption — all of the corruption taking place — largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden and his son creating to the corruption already in the Ukraine and Ukraine has got a lot of problems. The new president is saying that he's going to be able to rid the country of corruption, and I said that would be a great thing, we had a great conversation." "

This is damage control ... before the actual whistle blower report surfaces. Wanna bet its Barr that is buying him this time?

edit : Yo Ukraine, if you are listening... If you could leak transcripts of those phone calls that would be great. I see an EU membership for you in the future.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,914
6,791
126
Republicans and Democrats both are playing a dangerous game. I guarantee you the bulk of Republican politicians do not like or want Trump. Both are colluding to keep him in office. Democrats because they fear the uncertain political effects of impeachment, uncertain effects of destabilizing Trump further, and are feeling comfortable about their numbers heading into election. Republicans because they realize none is currently electable going against Trump and don't know what would be left of the party if they actually try and eject him.
I find your use of the words, 'dangerous' and 'game' interesting here. I wonder if by using them there must inevitably follow some sense that you might have that you are either unaware of or just don't express. Namely, that would be that be there exists a safer and more honest path, and especially that Democrats might take. Of course you might be saying that all options fall into those categories.

I find myself having drifted far off in to reflecting, on reading your post, regarding the complexities of moral decisions open to a mind given to critical thinking. And just now this memory has come to me:

The centipede was happy quite

until the toad in fun said

Pray, which goes after which.

This worked his mind to such a pitch

he lay distracted in the ditch

considering how to run.

But that is where I just arrived. Earlier my thoughts went something like this:

The more intelligent the mind and the greater the degree to which a person relies on thinking, the greater complexity of any moral decision becomes. I was thinking if maybe all of that couldn't be avoided by not living in ones head, but like a well intentioned and corruption child innocently do what is right. I think on that basis Trump would have been gone long ago.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,721
48,537
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So we're past welcoming and requesting foreign interference, this dipshit is flat out compelling it. Holy shit, Nancy Pelosi get your ass in gear.

This whistle blower strikes me as someone who truly deserves a medal and promotion. That takes some serious balls/thatchers. I don't see how anyone in the IC could bring themselves to do that if it weren't the real thing, who in the hell would want that kind of heat on them?

Not surprised Team Treason withheld the complaint, what's one more act of corruption/obstruction? Throw it on the pile. Republican traitors are disgusting.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,084
8,681
136
Every day that goes by, Trump is using more and more of that rope that in part Pelosi gave him to hang himself. A good and bad thing like much of what's happening with this impeach or not to impeach imbroglio going on at the moment. This Ukraine situation is just more of the same from Trump who seems to not suffer at all from his stupidity, his willingness to break laws.

One could argue either way that time is or is not on Trump's side as far as his being ultimately held accountable for his crimes.

The side issues that have cropped up on both sides of the aisle that seem to carry more priority over actually making Trump pay for his crimes is something that is IMO working more against the Dems than it is to the Repubs simply for the fact that the infighting among the Dems up on the Hill over this makes the Dems look divided (they actually are), ineffectual (for the time being) and unable to make the hard choices when under pressure (as it now looks).

The Repubs on the other hand simply have to sit back and have Trump dodge, dash, obstruct and violate laws at his leisure in order to make the Dems look like they're running around in circles trying to put out the fires on each other's butts rather than unifying and going directly at the cause of their problem.

Something's gotta give on the Dems's side and soon.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,611
33,330
136
And half of America is acting like the big scandal here is Democrats trying to stop a necessary investigation into Biden's son.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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So we're past welcoming and requesting foreign interference, this dipshit is flat out compelling it. Holy shit, Nancy Pelosi get your ass in gear.

This whistle blower strikes me as someone who truly deserves a medal and promotion. That takes some serious balls/thatchers. I don't see how anyone in the IC could bring themselves to do that if it weren't the real thing, who in the hell would want that kind of heat on them?

Not surprised Team Treason withheld the complaint, what's one more act of corruption/obstruction? Throw it on the pile. Republican traitors are disgusting.

Huh-Uhh! The squealer is a Deep State Traitor to the Divine Leader! Purge them all! Hail Trump!
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,031
2,886
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I find your use of the words, 'dangerous' and 'game' interesting here. I wonder if by using them there must inevitably follow some sense that you might have that you are either unaware of or just don't express. Namely, that would be that be there exists a safer and more honest path, and especially that Democrats might take. Of course you might be saying that all options fall into those categories.

I find myself having drifted far off in to reflecting, on reading your post, regarding the complexities of moral decisions open to a mind given to critical thinking. And just now this memory has come to me:

The centipede was happy quite

until the toad in fun said

Pray, which goes after which.

This worked his mind to such a pitch

he lay distracted in the ditch

considering how to run.

But that is where I just arrived. Earlier my thoughts went something like this:

The more intelligent the mind and the greater the degree to which a person relies on thinking, the greater complexity of any moral decision becomes. I was thinking if maybe all of that couldn't be avoided by not living in ones head, but like a well intentioned and corruption child innocently do what is right. I think on that basis Trump would have been gone long ago.

Well I hadn't put any specific thought into that choice of words, which is why I think the result is of the actual interest you point out. At first I was going to profess no special awareness as "dangerous game" is not too uncommon a saying.

But you are right. The right thing is staring everyone in the face. The thinking and game playing is what prevents us from striving for it.

I think that speaks to the principles America was founded upon. There did not need to be intellectual analysis to recognize that liberty was worth fighting for. Today, instead of a felt thing, recognizing liberty is an intellectual task which we insist stems from formal education. Wouldst only our hearts yearn for liberty again.
 
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pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,396
5,005
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What exactly do yoo believe that Pelosi can do? Is she hamstrung by the Senate?
Or are you just doubling down on this idiot thing??


If the democrats believe so much that he should be impeached and is guilty as claimed on the forum, she ( Pelosi) should do her job and impeach him. It does not matter what the Senate will or won't do.