SC upholds UT Affirmative Action.

[Svnla]

You'd think people wouldn't complain, but buckshot sure did a few weeks ago when we discussed this. My comment about Irish was only a joke, hence the smilie. I don't really care what race you are, from your words it sounded like you needed more diversity in your day to day life. A lot of your questions would be answered by being among different people from different backgrounds and discussing issues with them.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38273061&postcount=339

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38280945&postcount=375

Right here on this forum I had a discussion with him about groups catering to specific ethnic groups. Some people feel this is racist, which is dumb.

I brought it up not to argue over, but to say the fight against any specific help based on race extends even to these private groups trying to help minorities integrate. Its a strange mindset to me. I did not mean it as an attack on your post, but a sarcastic sigh at how far some go to try to deny the need for race-based help (again not directed at your post).

I mean like people in real life, not posters in forums, especially P&N. I know a few folks were complained about certain black students had their meetings in schools/public places and only allowed blacks in those meetings. I haven't heard anyone in real life complained about blacks/hispanics teaching or helping black/hispanics with their school works.

I don't care what color of this group or that group, as long as they help others to do better in school or in life, that is a OK with me.

Well, let just say I am a member of a minority group and I grew up in the deep South of US and I do have first hand experience of poverty (as in penniless), hardship, discrimination, name callings, stereotyping, and on and on. And no, I do not claim to know everything about my group or any other group as certain member(s) in here implied.

I do have plenty of diversity training by first hand experience. I don't mind a helping hand but not a hand out. Let say I have a 3.9 GPA and a 30 in ACT, I sure would not mind if I lose my spot to a person with 4.1 GPA and a 33 ACT and better extra actitivies but I would not be happy if he/she only has 3.5 and 26 and lesser extra activities because he/she was in certain group. Let treat everyone as equal, regardless of background, race, ethic, etc. That's my main point.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Why don't you ban yourself? Completely useless and dishonest of you to say this. He didn't bring his ethnicity up to prove his points it was suggested he get involved with minorities to understand their perspective so he brought it up. Do you walk around with this level of hatred and venom in your everyday life?

preach it, sinner man, preach it!

 

[ivwshane]

I gotta admit you have set up a pretty sweet gig putting yourself at the center of minority achievement either way. When a minority does poorly, you get to be the one bringing enlightenment about how they were screwed over by other whites and absolving them of responsibility. And if they succeed it's because you as the Noble White Man® were there to offer the helping hand of affirmative action.

Ah, the old white guilt argument. Classy! Does that make agent00f a traitor to the white race Glenn? I think your true colors are finally showing. I'm guessing that picture you posted you feel represents me, is a picture of your great grand pappy. An I right!

 

[ivwshane]

I mean like people in real life, not posters in forums, especially P&N. I know a few folks were complained about certain black students had their meetings in schools/public places and only allowed blacks in those meetings. I haven't heard anyone in real life complained about blacks/hispanics teaching or helping black/hispanics with their school works.

I don't care what color of this group or that group, as long as they help others to do better in school or in life, that is a OK with me.

Well, let just say I am a member of a minority group and I grew up in the deep South of US and I do have first hand experience of poverty (as in penniless), hardship, discrimination, name callings, stereotyping, and on and on. And no, I do not claim to know everything about my group or any other group as certain member(s) in here implied.

I do have plenty of diversity training by first hand experience. I don't mind a helping hand but not a hand out. Let say I have a 3.9 GPA and a 30 in ACT, I sure would not mind if I lose my spot to a person with 4.1 GPA and a 33 ACT and better extra actitivies but I would not be happy if he/she only has 3.5 and 26 and lesser extra activities because he/she was in certain group. Let treat everyone as equal, regardless of background, race, ethic, etc. That's my main point.

Then you clearly don't understand how affirmative action works (I should probably specify, how it is supposed to work).

 

[buckshot24]

preach it, sinner man, preach it!

What is your issue?

 

[agent00f]

How is NY this time of year?

I think the real question is, if we could get some admin to verify that I'm not from NY, do you seem like the kind of person w/ enough character to admit you're delusional.

 

[buckshot24]

I think the real question is, if we could get some admin to verify that I'm not from NY, do you seem like the kind of person w/ enough character to admit you're delusional.

This can easily be spoofed via proxies.

 

[agent00f]

I gotta admit you have set up a pretty sweet gig putting yourself at the center of minority achievement either way. When a minority does poorly, you get to be the one bringing enlightenment about how they were screwed over by other whites and absolving them of responsibility. And if they succeed it's because you as the Noble White Man® were there to offer the helping hand of affirmative action.

AA/segregation, etc are social phenomena. This means they're more readily visible with people in groups, as distinct from individual variations. That means a sharecropper's offspring might all be disadvantaged in a certain way, even if some are particularly destitute and some successful.

Generally it's harder for people to grasp statistical phenomena, which is why many don't really understand the backdrop to AA and other agenda on social justice. Notice again that term refers to a class of mathematically identifiable problems. Conservatism generally thinks of problems/solutions from the individual vantage, unless it's of course why this or that minority is worse than them.

To clarify, these posts explain the backdrop of this class of issues, because not understanding those basics leads to the sort of confident ignorance displayed above.

 

[agent00f]

This can easily be spoofed via proxies.

There's no need to brag that you hold all sorts of unfalsifiable beliefs. Including the one where people take you seriously.

 

[buckshot24]

There's no need to brag that you hold all sorts of unfalsifiable beliefs. Including the one where people take you seriously.

When you're an expert in alternative accounts you know how to hide your tracks. You should know this. I don't take fake accounts seriously.

 

[Perknose]

I think the real question is, if we could get some admin to verify that I'm not from NY, do you seem like the kind of person w/ enough character to admit you're delusional.

This can easily be spoofed via proxies.

Sigh.

This is a bolded and signed Mod comment. What does that mean? It means that it is not to be commented on in this thread, or any other forum thread, with the sole exception of making a complaint about its thrust in Moderator Discussions.

The other day, when three posters combined to make 7 straight posts accusing agent00f of being an alt, I decided to look into it. Mind you, I could have infracted all three for tag team thread crapping, but didn't.

Anyway, this is what we know:

1. agent00f is not using a proxy. In fact, he has been posting from but ONE legitimate (and presumably static) IP address this entire time.

2. The IP address he posts from has not been used by any other poster on this forum, ever. Amazingly enough! What this means is that we have zero proof that he is an RBM or an alt.

3. Furthermore, his posting style does not call to mind any previously banned member.

4. His IP address is geolocated about as far from NYC or NY state as one can get, and still be in mainland America. It comes from a fairly rural area, which may explain why no other poster ever on this forum has posted from it.

5. He is new, and all but 2-3 of his posts have been in P&N. This is . . . unusual. Perhaps agent00f would like to pm me and tell me his personal story around this. But the fact remains that unusual occurrences can have benign back stories.

6. (Pauses to sigh once more.) Now that I have highlighted that most all of his posts since joining have been in P&N, I am hereby warning all of you that any one of you that mentions this in any subsequent attack post will be immediately infracted for thread crapping, just because, moderator discretion, end of story.

Folks, the crazy season is in full swing here. Much as I wish to give as wide latitude as possible, repeated and/or heavy personal trolling of another poster will simply have to be dealt with.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[agent00f]

When you're an expert in alternative accounts you know how to hide your tracks. You should know this. I don't take fake accounts seriously.

Let's let this line of discourse go, please.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Subyman]

I mean like people in real life, not posters in forums, especially P&N. I know a few folks were complained about certain black students had their meetings in schools/public places and only allowed blacks in those meetings. I haven't heard anyone in real life complained about blacks/hispanics teaching or helping black/hispanics with their school works.

I can get behind the notion that buckshot isn't human

I do have plenty of diversity training by first hand experience. I don't mind a helping hand but not a hand out. Let say I have a 3.9 GPA and a 30 in ACT, I sure would not mind if I lose my spot to a person with 4.1 GPA and a 33 ACT and better extra actitivies but I would not be happy if he/she only has 3.5 and 26 and lesser extra activities because he/she was in certain group. Let treat everyone as equal, regardless of background, race, ethic, etc. That's my main point.

That is a common misconception with AA. Someone scoring much higher isn't excluded.

The court has already ruled against quotas, against using race as a tiebreaker, and against arbitrarily awarding extra "points" to minority applicants. The court has upheld the use of race in a holistic review of the applicant.

Many things fall under "AA" that aren't really a part of the reviews process. Many colleges invest in outreach programs that target specific demographics, so they increase minority enrollment which gives them a larger pool to choose from.

Targeting percent increase in certain minorities over a certain period of time so the student body better represents the regional demographics is allowed. Specific quotas are not allowed. But really, the main way most colleges increase minority enrollment is through outreach, not at the review process.

AA is complicated and the arguments used against it have usually been addressed decades ago by the courts.

 

[ivwshane]

Thanks suby for the clarification!

 

[agent00f]

Most people complaining about AA are those at the margin possibly getting displaced by a minority, or at least can see themselves in that position. Meaning hardly doing well.

Their advice for others is hunker down and perform better, so this is a situation where taking one's own advice would solve the problem.

 

[buckshot24]

Most people complaining about AA are those at the margin possibly getting displaced by a minority, or at least can see themselves in that position. Meaning hardly doing well.

Their advice for others is hunker down and perform better, so this is a situation where taking one's own advice would solve the problem.

I'm not affected one way or the other personally by AA policies.

 

[agent00f]

I'm not affected one way or the other personally by AA policies.

It's an effective conservative issue because the base can identify with those affected. In your case you appear to toe the line on all such issues.

 

[buckshot24]

It's an effective conservative issue because the base can identify with those affected. In your case you appear to toe the line on all such issues.

I want everybody treated as equally as possible.

 

[Jaskalas]

Most people complaining about AA are those at the margin possibly getting displaced by a minority, or at least can see themselves in that position. Meaning hardly doing well.

Their advice for others is hunker down and perform better, so this is a situation where taking one's own advice would solve the problem.

Eh? The whole point of AA is "do better" doesn't count.

 

[werepossum]

I can get behind the notion that buckshot isn't human

That is a common misconception with AA. Someone scoring much higher isn't excluded.

The court has already ruled against quotas, against using race as a tiebreaker, and against arbitrarily awarding extra "points" to minority applicants. The court has upheld the use of race in a holistic review of the applicant.

Many things fall under "AA" that aren't really a part of the reviews process. Many colleges invest in outreach programs that target specific demographics, so they increase minority enrollment which gives them a larger pool to choose from.

Targeting percent increase in certain minorities over a certain period of time so the student body better represents the regional demographics is allowed. Specific quotas are not allowed. But really, the main way most colleges increase minority enrollment is through outreach, not at the review process.

AA is complicated and the arguments used against it have usually been addressed decades ago by the courts.

That and creatively weighting extracurricular activities. If one is stuck in a crap school, one
is almost certainly not going to ace one's SATs, but one can volunteer at hospices, senior centers, tutoring, etc. That helps bring in people with grit who just happened to start with a bad hand. Other things include the program that Shehateme brought up, where the top 10% of every high school has automatic acceptance to state universities.

 

[1prophet]

I want everybody treated as equally as possible.

Then we need to start with our unequal disastrous free trade agreements and immigration policies which have hurt minority Americans more than any other group, especially blacks and lower class whites.

Doesn't matter if a minority got to go to a college because of affirmative action if what is waiting for them is huge student debt and low paying jobs.

 

[Victorian Gray]

What is your issue?

World peace is a good one.

 

[agent00f]

The problem here is many people still don't understand AA or fundamentally what justice is. It's difficult to have coherent opinions on issues not understood.

To elaborate on my previous post, in any worthy system of justice, if party X injures party Y, X is responsible for recompense to Y and not just cease injuring. What's happening here is X pulled a fast one and made a larger group Z pay what's owed, and Z is blaming the victim and everyone else except X.

To make this more concrete, consider if a man or group of men molested/abused a group of women. Our justice system would rightly convict this male group to prison (criminal court) & large monetary damages (civil court). Now imagine these guys are well connected and plead this down to $100,000 and 2000 hr community service to battered women's shelter. Not only that, but they successfully make the slimy case that they were only operating on uncontrollable male instinct or whatever, and this already reduced punishment should be divided between all males in the community, to the tune of $50 and 1hr service apiece.

Now I suppose this is kinda unfair to the rest of the males, but responsible people perform their civic duty to make sure the victims are if not made whole at least in part. Completely irresponsible people blame the battered women for their minimal burden, siding with the original perpetrator's story that us men gotta stick together against this unfair treatment while the perps actually get away scot free.

This is what's happening here as the people who perpetrated a crime against certain minority groups are dividing their punishment/recompense among their entire race. They successfully shift blame to the victims while taking some sort of leadership position in this new klan.

Now you might think there's no way there are people that dumb to miss what's going on here, when it's plainly evident, but you never know with rubes.

 

[Starbuck1975]

To elaborate on my previous post, in any worthy system of justice, if party X injures party Y, X is responsible for recompense to Y and not just cease injuring. What's happening here is X pulled a fast one and made a larger group Z pay what's owed, and Z is blaming the victim and everyone else except X.

That is a reasonable summary of justice, but in your analogy as it relates to affirmative action:

1. What do you consider the original injury? (I am assuming slavery)
2. Can we apply contemporary understandings of justice to events that transpired at a time when societal norms did not consider the injury an injustice?
3. Should there be a statute of limitations on injury for compensation?

I agree with your analogy in the sense that X pitted Z against Y, and is also asking Z to recompense Y on their behalf. But who defines what constitutes adequate compensation for the original injury?

 

[SheHateMe]

I'm surprised the case went this far. This girl is an idiot. 47 WHITE students with lower grades or similar grades got admitted through the special program she was trying to get admitted through, but she believes that she deserved one of the few spots that were left over because she's white. She's an underachiever. She needs to face the music.