Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[OCNewbie]

I've been enjoying it talking with you guys no matter our philisophical/scientific/religous (non-religious) differences -- it's been fun! We need more threads where calm, respectful, and open discussion is encouraged and taking place.

I've enjoyed it too, for the most part. It's an outlet to express my thoughts (as this is something I have given great thought to, over the years), and learn from others who have also (obviously) given it a great deal of thought at some point as well.

 

[Moonbeam]

???

What is your question?

 

[Retro Rob]

That's one of the problems, I think. I imagine there's some sort of event/happening that might steer me towards a (re)belief in God, but short of dying and then meeting him at that point, I'm not sure what that would be.

I think one of the big issues I have with belief, is my understanding that the vast majority of the instances that people reference as a sign that God is real, and what they might use to bolster their faith, they were actually told ahead of time what to look for. So, perhaps you get goosebumps while visiting the grave of a lost loved one, and you had previously been told that that is a sign from above. Especially in such a situation, where you're yearning for a glimmer of hope that you may one day reunite with this loved one who has passed on, you're going to WANT to believe that those goosebumps are what you've been told they are. You've already been predisposed to interpret that physical sensation with something from beyond. So all that needs to happen is for such an occurrence to happen at the right time, and BOOM you've made the connection and giving that sensation more weight than just a physiological reaction to the emotions you were under at the time, and that light gust of wind that would have blown there if you were present or not.

I believe in the power of placebo, and I believe it plays a part in the vast majority of instances where people think they are "touched" by the presence of God, or otherwise experience his presence. They have already been told what to look for, and they have already been given an explanation of what those sensations are, and where they come from. Factor in that, assuming they're already a believer, they WANT to experience these things, and it's quite within the realm of human ability to actually manifest these feelings themselves (goose bumps, sudden feelings of warmth, etc.).

So, that's an issue I have with "proof" is that it is highly dependent on someone wanting proof, and being very open to the idea of that proof coming. Their radars are on ultra-sensitive mode, constantly scanning for anything resembling these feelings/sensations others have no doubt gleefully described to them.

I believe there is too, and I hope I am not missing your point, but I don't put a whole lot of weight into personal experience such as "I prayed for a job making 90k/yr (despite the fact that I have 10 years of previous CEO/COO experience running a fortune 500 company) and I got it after sending a few resumes out.

I think that God does operate in a way that would assist you, but I don't think it's to the point of literally making choices for you because if they fail, then they really weren't God's choices, right?

I think religion preys on the nature of people sometimes -- Pastors study the sheep in an attempt to exploit them (per the example you showed) so that they can keep giving money.

Just my $.02

 

[FelixDeCat]

What is your question?

I think his question is "question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark", to which I would like to reply !#!@$!!!



Have a good weekend everybody.

 

[FelixDeCat]

If there's Evidence, show it. If there's nothing to show, why on Earth would you Believe it?

Blessed is he who has not seen, but believed.

 

[sandorski]

Blessed is he who has not seen, but believed.

Conmen count on it.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Conmen count on it.

Thanks but, I'd rather count on God.

 

[sandorski]

Thanks but, I'd rather count on God.

Something that's probably not there? Seems risky.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Something that's probably not there? Seems risky.

Not as risky as a conman you 'know' is there. Faith is a choice. The simplicity and difficulty is amazing.

 

[sandorski]

Not as risky as a conman you 'know' is there. Faith is a choice. The simplicity and difficulty is amazing.

So, if you don't know the conman is there, it's fine?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So, if you don't know the conman is there, it's fine?

If you don't know he's there, he can't con you. If you know he there, he can't con you. If you seek conmen, they will find you. :biggrin:

 

[LunarRay]

What is your question?

Does 2 + 2 equal 5 for extremely large values of 2? Or... You are easily classified as being an adherent of the Eastern portion of the Western Russian Deterministic view of the Ontological value of perceived estimations faction. You are predestined to cook yesterday's solipsistic dinner tomorrow and dine on it today. He who dines alone has all the dessert.

 

[sandorski]

If you don't know he's there, he can't con you. If you know he there, he can't con you. If you seek conmen, they will find you. :biggrin:

What if the Conman is there, but his/her Con is God?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

What if the Conman is there, but his/her Con is God?

Then their faith is lacking.

 

[sandorski]

Then their faith is lacking.

That's a nonsensical answer.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

That's a nonsensical answer.

Only if you have no faith.

 

[sandorski]

Only if you have no faith.

Oy vey, No.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Oy vey, No.

A nar bleibt a nar.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

What if the Conman is there, but his/her Con is God?

I suggest you examine what you're getting for what you're giving up and see for yourself if this is a con.

I think Magnus is offering some first-hand testimony that he doesn't think so; but hell, your milage may vary.

 

[sandorski]

I suggest you examine what you're getting for what you're giving up and see for yourself if this is a con.

I think Magnus is offering some first-hand testimony that he doesn't tink so; but hell, your milage may vary.

What am I giving up?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

What am I giving up?

That's between you and the faith you enter.

From a Christian perspective you would be giving up other-hurting self-serving lust and pride (which is the definition of 'sin' in Christianity); Which means accepting a change in 'who you are' such that you give up 'yourself' and accept being turned into someone that is 'more like christ'.

If you're happy with who you are and where you are in life then this isn't for you. This "Christian" thing is for people in need of emotional/spiritual healing, ready, essentially, to leave behind their former identity.

I encourage investigating other paths as well if you're interested in spirituality, there seems to be an unfortunately low number of non-christian faithful in these threads :-\.

I don't know where you are in your life, but if you're happy with who you are then I'm fairly sure you are who God wants you to be.

 

[randomrogue]

That's between you and the faith you enter.

From a Christian perspective you would be giving up other-hurting self-serving lust and pride (which is the definition of 'sin' in Christianity); Which means accepting a change in 'who you are' such that you give up 'yourself' and accept being turned into someone that is 'more like christ'.

If you're happy with who you are and where you are in life then this isn't for you. This "Christian" thing is for people in need of emotional/spiritual healing, ready, essentially, to leave behind their former identity.

I think Buddhism offers a great hobby/path folks that want to be "more spiritual" but don't are reasonably happy with who they are (not to say that's all there can be to it); but I'm not a Buddhist, so I can't fully speak to that.

Do you truly give up your sins?

Masturbation?
Tattoos?
Sex before marriage?
Idolizing?
Swearing?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

That's between you and the faith you enter.

From a Christian perspective you would be giving up other-hurting self-serving lust and pride (which is the definition of 'sin' in Christianity); Which means accepting a change in 'who you are' such that you give up 'yourself' and accept being turned into someone that is 'more like christ'.

If you're happy with who you are and where you are in life then this isn't for you. This "Christian" thing is for people in need of emotional/spiritual healing, ready, essentially, to leave behind their former identity.

I think Buddhism offers a great hobby/path folks that want to be "more spiritual" but don't are reasonably happy with who they are (not to say that's all there can be to it); but I'm not a Buddhist, so I can't fully speak to that.

I don't agree with the bolded. Faith isn't about reinventing yourself although, that certainly happens. It's about opening yourself to God's love and his plan for you. It's about learning how to use your talents, the ones you were born with. It's about putting your trust in a power greater than yourself. It's about becoming a better human. It's about sharing the strength you receive by choosing to have faith. It's about peace of mind. Faith is not just about the wounded in spirit, the weak or, needy, it's about being a source of strength and leadership to those around you.

 

[sandorski]

That's between you and the faith you enter.

From a Christian perspective you would be giving up other-hurting self-serving lust and pride (which is the definition of 'sin' in Christianity); Which means accepting a change in 'who you are' such that you give up 'yourself' and accept being turned into someone that is 'more like christ'.

If you're happy with who you are and where you are in life then this isn't for you. This "Christian" thing is for people in need of emotional/spiritual healing, ready, essentially, to leave behind their former identity.

I encourage investigating other paths as well if you're interested in spirituality, there seems to be an unfortunately low number of non-christian faithful in these threads :-\.

I don't know where you are in your life, but if you're happy with who you are then I'm fairly sure you are who God wants you to be.

I am not interested in anything based upon nothing but assertions.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Do you truly give up your sins?

Masturbation?
Tattoos?
Sex before marriage?
Idolizing?
Swearing?

Are those your sins RandomR? Because everyone's got lustful/prideful things that benefit themselves and that they know hurt someone else. I don't know that any of those necessarily fit in that category for everyone.

My biggest sin-problem is pride; particularly as it relates to my intelligence; I brow-beat people intellectually and its a shitty thing to do... I'm betting that a LOT of people on this forum are in the same boat :-\

It's about opening yourself to God's love and his plan for you. It's about learning how to use your talents, the ones you were born with. It's about putting your trust in a power greater than yourself. It's about becoming a better human. It's about sharing the strength you receive by choosing to have faith. It's about peace of mind. Faith is not just about the wounded in spirit, the weak or, needy, it's about being a source of strength and leadership to those around you.

While I agree; I think that brokenness is needed before these benefits of living in the Kingdom. This is why Jesus came for prostitutes, thieves, the treasonous, and other social-outcasts: not for the religious scholars who's only prayer was "thanks for making me awesome".

I am not interested in anything based upon nothing but assertions.

Are changed lives more than assertions?