Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[Darwin333]

I never said an Atheist said that to me to begin with, but what they have said to me is "God doesn't exist". Hence, saying God doesn't exist, as far as I am concerned, is rejecting evidence found in nature, design, organization, etc, that he DOES exist.

I think it's clear that's what I was saying.

Which god created it though? There are hundreds of choices to choose from. Can't the same exact thing be proof that aliens created it too? Hell, you can use that as proof that the tooth fairy is our creator.

When we say proof we mean something that will pass the scientific litmus test. If whatever god was actually proven I would be an instant believer.

 

[Darwin333]

You're deliberately quoting me OUT OF CONTEXT!!

Where did I say an Atheist said to me this? Where? Show me!

I simply stated that the position they hold (again, the ONES IVE ENCOUNTERED) is a rejection of evidence. The evidence that they're rejecting IS the evidence of Intelligence in Design.

This is the evidence I see and attribute. How am I lying? They don't think design is evidence of God, am I right?

And at the same time, I think you flat out reject stronger evidence that our design (including the rest of the universe) isn't very intelligent.

 

[LunarRay]

...but then, those who pray and aren't healed, then what?

This is also the issue I have too with certain people's evidences, also considering the sheer amount of prayers that go "unanswered".

Two posts after the one you quoted deals with your question...

It is sorta an issue of Free Will versus God's Will... My little mind can't reconcile how there can be both at play.... It is why I believe God exists beyond all that we will ever know while alive. He started with his Will and then gave us that gift too...
I also figure that Jesus gave us a bit of a tug because God saw the use of our Free Will would cause us to reject God as our Ego demanded. We wouldn't consume poison to sustain ourselves when a nifty apple tastes so good... Or would we....

 

[LunarRay]

And at the same time, I think you flat out reject stronger evidence that our design (including the rest of the universe) isn't very intelligent.

What is is!

Maybe God designed what is to cause folks to not rationalize based on Science but, rather, based on Love... It is plausible, No?

 

[Retro Rob]

Which god created it though? There are hundreds of choices to choose from. Can't the same exact thing be proof that aliens created it too? Hell, you can use that as proof that the tooth fairy is our creator.

When we say proof we mean something that will pass the scientific litmus test. If whatever god was actually proven I would be an instant believer.

True, but I guess one would have determine that on his own.

Our science isn't prefect, and has been and will be open to refinement because we don't always understand what we're studying or testing.

That being said, for something to pass the "litmus" test, we have to drop the premise that "miracles CANT happen", and others negative presumptions associated with claims that may, at present, be beyond our current "science".

For instance, if you were to travel back say... 500 years, and tell a guy that you have a means to talk to someone 1000 miles away without having to raise your voice (via the Telephone, of course), or by hand-delivering a letter, you'd probably get laughed all the way to prison, or a nut house.

Just because something is beyond our current understading or testing ability doesn't mean it can't be real, or can't happen.

 

[Retro Rob]

And at the same time, I think you flat out reject stronger evidence that our design (including the rest of the universe) isn't very intelligent.

I don't think I do, but I won't say you're wrong.

However, I do think the Universe reflects more of artistry and creative power than intelligence, though I do think intelligence is shown but not as much as with our planet and how it's great for life!

 

[LunarRay]

I don't think I do, but I won't say you're wrong.

However, I do think the Universe reflects more of artistry and creative power than intelligence, though I do think intelligence is shown but not as much as with our planet and how it's great for life!

We'd better quick like a bunny climb the curve to keep it that way or some random comet is possibly going to visit us and make it not so great... or some other event.

 

[Retro Rob]

We'd better quick like a bunny climb the curve to keep it that way or some random comet is possibly going to visit us and make it not so great... or some other event.

I never said we don't live in a shooting gallery because that's exactly what it is out there and crap just lands where it will.

However, I think the massive planets, such as Jupiter, deals with the massive "rocks" flying our way potentially.

I've read scientists have been debating whether or not this is really true.

 

[OCNewbie]

Stating something as "fact" (God doesn't exist), which some of them do, is a lie, and is a dismissal of evidence that is abundant that he "does" exist.

Perhaps I missed it in earlier postings, but I don't seem to recall you listing any of this evidence (what you deem as so) of God's existence. It seems to me that with such an "abundance" of it, it wouldn't be that hard to share a few things that are examples of that.

 

[Retro Rob]

Exactly. Organized religion has throughout history and still to this day been used as a very powerful and effective tool to control the masses.

Reason # 1,543 I don't buy into them

True, but I don't think it's wise to write off ALL religion nowadays. Just like after the Civil Rights Movement, I know it's a mistake to lable all White people as "racists" because of their recent history on this country.

That's not to say that I think religion needs to reform to reflect more secular views because I don't think that's proper, but they MUST practice their religion as they see fit without infringing on the rights of others who have no interest in religion.

This includes, but not limited to, seeking to pass laws reflecting said views.

 

[LunarRay]

I never said we don't live in a shooting gallery because that's exactly what it is out there and crap just lands where it will.

However, I think the massive planets, such as Jupiter, deals with the massive "rocks" flying our way potentially.

I've read scientists have been debating whether or not this is really true.

That is true for most objects but that depends on the position of Jupiter when the object visits our solar system. The Sun plays a part too... Stuff like this operates under the inverse-square law.... It is also true that a minor deflection caused by the gravitational constant could result in an Earthly visit.... It is all about Physics... Jupiter has consumed many objects that might have hit us but it did not consume the 1908 Russian one or the one (Chicxulub) that hit in the Gulf of Mexico (there is evidence that occurred) and took out much of the life on the planet or at least should and or could have.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Couldn't this be achieved by believing in "Karma"?

Yes; and sorry to hear about your Cancer my dad recently got Cancer and had his Kidney out. It's metastasized.

I've been diagnosed with cancer, and I will undergo treatment for it. I will not credit the expertise of the doctors & nurses involved, all the various high-tech equipment that was used to shrink my tumors, the chemicals injected into my body, etc., but my faith in the fact that I am a good person, treated others well, and that "what goes around comes around" is what healed me.

If one of your doctors siad that a belief in Karma got her or him through med school; I don't know why anyone would disbelieve that.

So what REALLY cured that person?

What physically cured the person: our best medical science as developed over the past hundred years. What kept the person following the doctors orders, going to treatment, and holding out hope that despite life was going to take a shit-turn for a while things could get better?

Well, if they told me that faith in God or Karma or what have you helped them through: I think it would be asinine to deny that.

Here, perhaps you'll remember this story where a family planned to refuse treatment for their then 13 year-old boy (Daniel Hauser) who had a very treatable form of lymphoma. At first they resisted, but in the end (after courts ordered the family could not deny him medical care for religious reasons) he was treated with chemotherapy and is currently in remission. Somewhat ironically, his father, approximately a year later, was diagnosed with a form of leukemia. The father decided to go the route they were intending to go with the child, avoiding conventional medicine, and going with something more in line with their faith, and he died a ~year later.

That's fucking disgusting; I don't think that your "faith" gives you a right to murder (by commission or omission) any children, even your own.


I have to work, this thread got my mind working thinking about the institutional theory and I need to write some papers. So I don't think i'll be able to respond much more for a few days.

 

[OCNewbie]

Yes; and sorry to hear about your Cancer my dad recently got Cancer and had his Kidney out. It's metastasized.

Just wanted to clarify that, afaik, I do NOT have cancer. I was just laying out a hypothetical. I guess I didn't make that overly clear.

Sorry to hear about your dad's illness. I hope, through whatever means, he is able to make a full recovery.

 

[alzan]

I never said we don't live in a shooting gallery because that's exactly what it is out there and crap just lands where it will.

However, I think the massive planets, such as Jupiter, deals with the massive "rocks" flying our way potentially.

I've read scientists have been debating whether or not this is really true.

In order to really protect us it would have to mimic our orbit a lot closer than it does. All planets in our solar system have vastly different orbits than Earth's. The number of times and the lengrh of those times that Jupiter is in position to 'vacuum up the debris' headed our way are few and very short. True it's immense gravity pulls in a lot of debris wherever it is in it's orbit but I think it's a huge leap to say that all or even a significant percentage of that debris would've hit Earth had Jupiter not been there.

Also, we get hit by meteorites all the time, most of them break apart in our atmosphere. The one that broke up over Russia was lucky enough that it hit in a populated enough area of the Earth that the media picked up on it.

The asteroid that missed us by 17,000 miles is one of the few that we saw far enough out to track; there was one, I believe in 2012 that we didnt see until after it passed by us. It was further out than 17000 miles but it was dammed close.

I did like the way Neil deGrasse Tyson described the one from the other day as a "buzzcut".

 

[Charles Kozierok]

However, I think the massive planets, such as Jupiter, deals with the massive "rocks" flying our way potentially.

Before I respond, let me see if I have this straight.

You're claiming that Jupiter plays a significant role in stopping objects from striking the earth?

 

[Retro Rob]

Before I respond, let me see if I have this straight.

You're claiming that Jupiter plays a significant role in stopping objects from striking the earth?

I wouldn't say "signficant", but it has and does pull a lot of stuff in. It's not Earth's protector or anything like that.

I would go as far as to say if it weren't there, we'd probably been hit with a planet killer a long time ago.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I would go as far as to say if it weren't there, we'd probably been hit with a planet killer a long time ago.

And what is that based upon?

I think you seriously underestimate how small the planets are in the scope of their orbits.

Sure, it will capture some of the objects heading our way, but the orbits of both planets are so massive that it can't be very much.

My guess is Jupiter reduces objects impacting the earth by a factor of 10 to the power of a pretty large negative number.

ETA: This is an interesting discussion of the issue. I will concede that the idea isn't as infeasible as I initially thought it was, and thank you for mentioning the phenomenon.

 

[Retro Rob]

And what is that based upon?

I think you seriously underestimate how small the planets are in the scope of their orbits.

Sure, it will capture some of the objects heading our way, but the orbits of both planets are so massive that it can't be very much.

My guess is Jupiter reduces objects impacting the earth by a factor of 10 to the power of a pretty large negative number.

I actually read the Wiki on this sometime ago.

I think that I actually overestimate the "role" Jupiter plays in this. Sure, its a freaking massive planet, with a massive EM Field that reaches 7 million miles into space, so I probably put too much wieght into it's "role" as far as sucking stuff in.

The bigger the planet, the stronger its pull.

I see what you're saying, though.

 

[Retro Rob]

And what is that based upon?

I think you seriously underestimate how small the planets are in the scope of their orbits.

Sure, it will capture some of the objects heading our way, but the orbits of both planets are so massive that it can't be very much.

My guess is Jupiter reduces objects impacting the earth by a factor of 10 to the power of a pretty large negative number.

ETA: This is an interesting discussion of the issue. I will concede that the idea isn't as infeasible as I initially thought it was, and thank you for mentioning the phenomenon.

Never read that. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Retro Rob]

The asteroid that missed us by 17,000 miles is one of the few that we saw far enough out to track; there was one, I believe in 2012 that we didnt see until after it passed by us. It was further out than 17000 miles but it was dammed close.

I did like the way Neil deGrasse Tyson described the one from the other day as a "buzzcut".

Scary stuff too.

I would really be worried if one "passes" close enough to be seen by the naked, unassisted eye.

Image what would have taken place here if the one that broke up over Russia happened on 12/21/21. :awe:

 

[LunarRay]

Scary stuff too.

I would really be worried if one "passes" close enough to be seen by the naked, unassisted eye.

Image what would have taken place here if the one that broke up over Russia happened on 12/21/21. :awe:

The coefficient of friction resulting from our atmosphere imparts a tremendous amount of heat energy (kinetic to heat) into an object coming to visit. Most will simply 'explode' but that depends on what they're made of....

Science understands that you don't want blowing up the object when a very small deviation far away can alter the trajectory by vast amounts... Lasers are a way to do that and they've developed the means but they still sit on their butt regarding the delivery system.

Using your Jupiter idea... we can calculate rather accurately exactly how much deviation would be needed to have an asteroid go visit Jupiter and be gone forever... We simply have not found the need yet... Apparently...

 

[Moonbeam]

Jupiter's weight should tell you it's been eating something and that the only thing not gobbled up is in the asteroid belt it uses to hold up its pants and the occasional morsel that wonders in from the Oort cloud of snow cones.

 

[MtnMan]

I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...

Let me ax you a question. What would it take for you to believe, short of arriving in Heaven and facing God?

For the simple reason it is a totally insane concept derived from the selfishness of weak minded people that cannot or will not accept the fact that just like the cockroach you squished on the kitchen floor, when we die that's it. Souls, supernatural, afterlife, the musing of children or those with child like minds.

What would it take for me to believe? That is when it's official, I will be totally insane.

If you want to play the "proof" such as many other fairy tale followers often throwout, well bring it on, but till then STFU about your fairytale fantasies.

 

[Moonbeam]

So what are we looking at here? Whatever we see of course. The person of faith knows God because he knows Him but can make the mistake that proof of a kind satisfying to a skeptic can exist. This is because it is obvious to him that God exists and should be obvious to everybody. He sees the proof in everything but the proof that he sees isn't scientific evidence but conviction that arises our of feeling. The certainty that God exists corresponds to an inner feeling a recognition that believing in God is a great place to be. He is happier than non believers and lives longer, but probably at least in part for social reasons he has a community of believers, most likely, with which he can commune. Communism is another thing you can get quite certain about because of the good feelings it can bring.

Unfortunately, because the believer thinks that the source of his belief lies in what he believes, he may miss the fact that the reason he believes is because of the state of being that belief creates. He knows that believing is more satisfying than not and that's why he believes believing is better. But the result is that he can become a fanatic, thinking that the belief is what matters, not the state that belief puts him in, a state that others also have but based on different beliefs.

So the Atheist comes along and sees all the proof that the religious create and walks away shaking his head. This is nonsense, he proclaims, and it is, for the religious part. But because he feels nothing from his belief, he has nothing to protect or project. He has no gift to give except the satisfaction that he doesn't believe in nonsense and all the shit it creates, that he's not an insane holy warrior. He has rejected bridges altogether.

But beyond all this is the real purpose of religion, to help men find an 'ultimate' state of awareness, to be in the world but not of it, to not be attached to things, etc. This is something both the religious and non religious, I think, can easily miss that duality can be transcended creating a different state of being. This can happen with or without religion. It can happen through the mind or the body as well as the heart, but if the room that is opened is lacking love, then the room is empty. It's is the quality of the love that blooms when this state is entered that creates something deeper than the certainty of faith or doubt and it is love-knowing. It can't be proved but when it is taken as a theory illuminates a lot of things that make sense in no other way, in my opinion. The sense on inalienable rights, for example, makes sense in there is an inalienable truth to which those rights cohere. Everybody has a sense of justice, of fair play, because it is the image in which we were created. So even if no God exists, he still exists within us.

 

[alzan]

Scary stuff too.

I would really be worried if one "passes" close enough to be seen by the naked, unassisted eye.

Image what would have taken place here if the one that broke up over Russia happened on 12/21/21. :awe:

A lot of people would have found new respect for the Mayans and their calendar?

Mass panic in selected areas I would imagine. I sympathize with those that were wounded; yet from a cosmological aspect it's interesting to think about. Something that relatively small size just happened to hit the one planet (that we know of) with sentient, intelligent(?) life on it, and the damage it did. The universe is a violent place.