Saw this question on r/atheism today.

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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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What do you mean "right thing to do" where do these right thing atmospherics tenets and attitudes come from?

They come from societal structures. And they evolve as society does.

As for pragmatism, well, it was also pragmatic for the RCC to systematically enable and then cover up decades of child abuse. If religion can't even stop the leaders of the religion from behaving decently, what good is it?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
They come from societal structures. And they evolve as society does.

As for pragmatism, well, it was also pragmatic for the RCC to systematically enable and then cover up decades of child abuse. If religion can't even stop the leaders of the religion from behaving decently, what good is it?

And religion is a huge societal structure whether you like it or not. Unlike most agnostics I see value in some of it's tenants so I don't bash aberrant behavior or rouge elements to be taken as whole religion is worthless. Only exception I make is Islam which uniformly applies cruelty in matters of crime and punishment and those not Muslim enough. You'll never hear Catholics in pew saying "hey we need to keep this pedophile on" while death for apostasy in islam is universally cheered by people and all four schools of Islamic juris prudence.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
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Pragmatic self-interest that is not self-centered.

How is it known to be pragmatic and why would one what to not be self centered. Surely, at a bare minimum you would want to define 'pragmatic self interest' as self centered, otherwise where's the pragmatism, whatever that is.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
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Religion is a construct designed to reinforce (at best) or exploit (at worst) moral concepts already acceptable to a population.

Would you get upset if I called this secular poppycock and duck paddle?

Never mind we leave that plane and embark on another. Compare your statement to the one I will make next and tell me how it differs with respect to demonstrable veracity:

Religion is a construct, created sometime in the past by an Exemplar or Exponent or Avatar, a person who has achieved a state of Oneness, has examined the culture within which he finds himself, and builds a bridge suiting these things that constitute the major hidden blindnesses of the people of his time and place. They are fingers pointing to Oneness or Truth and when he dies they are overtaken by mechanically, including all the things you say, to reinforce at best or to control according to the moral precepts, immoral precepts, the people will support, anything that convinces them they need do nothing to awaken. All of these folk garner a great deal of gratitude from those they awaken. The fly paper, in other words, into which thieves and criminals flock to manipulate for their own benefit, they could never create themselves. The Holy Spirit, if you will forgive me, is what religious folk are attracted to and what the phony pretend to dispense.

One reason why I prefer my explanation over yours is to be found by examining what I see as intent. It looks for all the world to me that what a religion preaches is totally different than what the religious believe. It says do not kill, for example but religions go about killing. If I were going to establish a religion of power, I would try to make what I say consistent with my aim.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
126
Morality is a part of society, and is built and evolved when people form groups. (Animals, too.)

M: Morality is a part of society sounds to me like a religious statement, like God is a part of society and evolves as people do. Can you prove to me that morality is a part of society. I know that societies create moral structures, but I am interested in why. How does a person born with a blank slate dream up something like moral precept? It would seem that morality should be whatever people dream up and not show so much commonality. But the important point is that saying morality is part of society doesn't say anything about the connection. It is an unsupported statement, a belief I can see no evidence for why I should believe it.

I believe that the roots of morality lie in empathy and that the highest state of empathy is to be had in the oneness experience and that moral evolution is always directed by our genes, a capacity we have for conscious being a state so different than the normal one it is hidden from those who have not experienced it but for the sake of conversation is given names like God Consciousness and other such malarkey. This is also a belief, but to my mind explains many things that have no other rational basis that I can see. Mind you, I do not believe that I have the tools to know for sure, but my belief looks better to me, although I do not yet understand yours since it is offered without any reasoning but as a flat statement.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
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Of course they are.

But the entire point is that religious people say their morals are above social structures.

So are we to assume then that morality is the result of social structure and not the word of God? How does one idea make any more sense than the other? Social structure equals morality, God equals morality, and morality is evolving??? Evolving to what from where? Are societies evolving on the basis of survival of the most correctly moral? Does the universe have a moral filter or is there maybe something in the human being that has a feel for this? So many questions.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
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Morality in an atheist's world is subject to human judgement with all its shortcomings and pitfalls.

Morality in a theist's world is subject to human judgment with all its shortcomings and pitfalls... Except they make believe a magic infallible judge exists to correct human errors so they can sleep better at night.

Grow up.

How am I going to grow up on Pablum. I know nothing. I am asking you about this unknown concept you call human judgment. What is it. I fear I may not believe in it like I don't believe in God and will miss something big and important. Unlike the Atheist who thinks he has the perspicacity to determine evidence with accuracy I am not so sure. Human judgment sounds to me just like the kind of ticket I need to ride, but can you explain it to me?

How do I get it and how will I know when I do. Surely if you have it you can tell me. No mumbo jumbo mystical stuff please. And for the love of Christ, don't tell me I'd have to have it to know what it is.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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Religion is a construct, created sometime in the past by an Exemplar or Exponent or Avatar, a person who has achieved a state of Oneness, has examined the culture within which he finds himself, and builds a bridge suiting these things that constitute the major hidden blindnesses of the people of his time and place.

Maybe.

Or maybe it is a construct created by a charismatic bullshit artist who figures out that he can use it to enrich and empower himself while controlling masses of people unwilling to think for themselves, or incapable of doing so.

They are fingers pointing to Oneness or Truth and when he dies they are overtaken by mechanically, including all the things you say, to reinforce at best or to control according to the moral precepts, immoral precepts, the people will support, anything that convinces them they need do nothing to awaken.

Or maybe they are fingers pointing up one's own nose.

One reason why I prefer my explanation over yours is to be found by examining what I see as intent.

You should read up on L. Ron Hubbard sometime.

Literally millions of people think he was more enlightened than you.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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So are we to assume then that morality is the result of social structure and not the word of God?

Sorry, which god? Each of them has very different ideas about what constitutes "morality", so why are you pretending there's some universal at work here?

How does one idea make any more sense than the other?

How does one god make any more sense than the other?

Social structure equals morality, God equals morality, and morality is evolving???

Bees have a social structure. So do some canids. And fish. And of course, primates.

Do they believe in gods?

Are societies evolving on the basis of survival of the most correctly moral?

I'm not a sociologist. But that societies evolve is so self-evident that I really hope you aren't going to ask me to prove it.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
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...or they knew he didn't. Even the New Testament doesn't make the claim they did. In fact, it specifically points out that only his followers knew it.

Actually, the guards knew and informed the priests.

Matt 28:

28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
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Can these people share these "proofs" or recreate them for others to see or are they just some "feeling"? Big difference.

They can be shared via communication, but no more than you can share any experience that you have had. Again, to me these are not "proofs", but for someone who needs those type of things, they could be considered that. These are actual experiences that my wife had, not feelings, actual events. I suppose someone could try to explain them away, but they would have to be explained away in an "X-File" type sense. No modern understanding of science could explain this, and nothing that we are even remotely close to.

These experiences came to my wife out of need, at least the 2 things I am thinking of. I have not had anything nearly as dramatic happen to me, although one thing was just a "supernatural" thing that I have shared on this board, and not what someone would call a "miracle".

Of course, some of us have had changes in our lives as well , emotional healing and such. People don't think much of that b/c therapy etc can assist with this type of thing as well (I am not sure of the comparison of effectiveness), so it would be discounted as a "proof" I assume.

Although, as I said before, I am not sure if there can be 100% certainty, it is true what the Bible says in Romans 8:16- The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
I can say that there is something that is not a "feeling" per se, more of just a type of internal comprehension that I know I am a child of God's. It is more of a "knowing" or "understanding" than a "feeling." It really isn't a feeling at all.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Of course they are.

But the entire point is that religious people say their morals are above social structures.

So does everyone else on whatever hocus pocus they believe and try and get laws to enact their version of morals. I don't think religious or non religious is wrong or right. It is what it is. My only problem with it from a logical view point, without apply any judgement based on my morals, is religions immutable nature. But that's not even really 100% true. Martin Luther taught us that.

So what are we left with? people of all stripes religious or not wish to curtail your natural rights (which is absolute freedom since liberty is natural state of existence absence of oppression). Some said God said so Some said Buhda did, some said Horus did some said me my inner god did. Same old shit. No reason to hate.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,791
6,350
126
Actually, the guards knew and informed the priests.

Matt 28:

28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

According to Matthew perhaps, but it was written by some anonymous person decades after the alleged fact.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
What a scam, demanding life-long subservience in return for Paradise after death. Something for nothing, right?
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,420
8,823
136
Youve never found reward in just helping someone? Consider Heaven a bonus! :)
Yea, there is a reward in helping people, one of the reasons I was a volunteer firefighter for 30+ years.

Heaven? You can't be serious, how old are you 6, and still believe fairy tales are true?
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,037
2,688
126
Yea, there is a reward in helping people, one of the reasons I was a volunteer firefighter for 30+ years.

Heaven? You can't be serious, how old are you 6, and still believe fairy tales are true?

I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...

Let me ax you a question. What would it take for you to believe, short of arriving in Heaven and facing God?
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...

Let me ax you a question. What would it take for you to believe, short of arriving in Heaven and facing God?

I'm not desperate enough to have to believe in things that aren't rational and have no proof.

Dying and going to Candyland is just as probable as going to Heaven.

To believe in a creation myth as an adult is simply irrational.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
6
81
I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...

Let me ax you a question. What would it take for you to believe, short of arriving in Heaven and facing God?

How about some piece of this thing called evidence. If the religion has been around for 2000 years, you would think it would have produced at least something which made it stand out versus the other religions.

If God were real, and wanted humans to truly believe in him / her / it, then it would be fairly straightforward to create an object that was completely indestructable and had waveform properties that were different than anything else on Earth, or write a name in the stars, or carve the moon into a giant pumpkin, etc..

Fact of the matter is that the idea of a God is really a reflection of one's inner mind made external. As human beings, we are so incredibly limited in what we can do in terms of where we can survive and how many flaws we have, etc. that it's improbable to an incredibly large degree that we are anything exceptional in terms of the universe. Earth could literally be blasted apart with a huge asteroid, sucked into a black hole, etc. and the universe would keep on moving as if nothing had ever happened.

In the grand scheme of things, our entire planet is less than a mote of sand on a beach the size of the sun, yet somehow many religions have convinced people that they are the special chosen ones and are somehow more important than the rest of the universe. Anybody peering through a telescope into the night sky and realizing how many billions of stars surround us, in our galaxy alone, amongst hundreds of billions of other observed galaxies, would also realize that we have little importance in the grand scheme of things.

That is the ultimate problem with the majority of religions that are based upon deism; the view that somehow humankind is special, a unique snowflake that this grand being personally cares about. The truth is that if there was a grand being, a creature of pure will that somehow guided humanity along, that he gives a rats ass about humans. For every person thanking God every time their team won, or they got that bonus at work, or got to bang that hot secretary in their office, there are other people on earth going through vast amounts of suffering via starvation, war, or oppression - typically from other humans.

There is no divine being that is going to step in and save us, we got ourselves into this mess, and only through letting deism die off and facing the reality and truth of things can we dig ourselves out.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...
Stories of people believing in god and heaven are not evidence that god and heaven exist.

Let me ax you a question. What would it take for you to believe, short of arriving in Heaven and facing God?
1 million digits of Pi at the beginning of Genesis, coupled with a checksum at the end of Revelation would be pretty convincing. Is that something that is not within the scope of your god's abilities?
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Youve never found reward in just helping someone? Consider Heaven a bonus! :)

Of course there's reward in helping someone, the good feeling you get from doing it; not unlike the effects of dopamine and serotonin on the brain. But as good as the feeling is it is a somewhat selfish end to the act itself.

As far as heaven, we create our own heaven/hell throughout our lives by our actions or inactions.

For myself I have no need of an eternal life. There was a time before I was alive, my life, and a coming time after my life. Eternity divided into three neat parts. What more could anyone ask or desire?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,768
6,770
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Stories of people believing in god and heaven are not evidence that god and heaven exist.


1 million digits of Pi at the beginning of Genesis, coupled with a checksum at the end of Revelation would be pretty convincing. Is that something that is not within the scope of your god's abilities?

That wouldn't convince me of a damn thing. If somebody can provide a check sum they can do the math. It would convince me that there are a million digits in pi and I already knew that. I would simply add math to the many wonderful things that the God I don't believe in purported to do.

The God I believe in can't be found via proof or via external demonstration. God can only be known from within by effect. The state of oneness that any human being can discover when experienced changes turns the world on its head and inside out. It is an experience of love and the end of doubt. I do not believe in God but I know that what pulls on and convinced all religious people there is an ultimate mystery is because one exists. I know it because I have tasted it.

It is very simple. No miracles other than the fact that the ego can die despite its best efforts to avoid it, no belief required, no form of the experience that can convey it to others, only fingers and bridges and all of which are misunderstood.

I was a seeker. I was driven by the question, what is the matrix and while deep in contemplation of what was driving me I got flushed out a hole in the back of my head, in a single instant I had a flash of insight that united my whole self in a higher understanding, I became the force that drove me and it was love. I was the one(ness) but I didn't exist. Only awareness did.

So stop doubting gods that don't exist, challenging religious beliefs filled with absurd things and look for God and His attribute love, in the only place he exists, your own human heart. You were created in his image or if you prefer, he was created in yours. Find your true self, the one that is left when all the assumptions you make that cloud your vision are taken away. You have to let go of assumptions because they are the product of ego. Do not forget that you do not know anything, but you are everything and you can know that when you let go of a need to know.
---------------
Rumi:

Listen to the story told by the reed,
of being separated.

“Since I was cut from the reedbed,
I have made this crying sound.

Anyone apart from someone he loves
understands what I say.

Anyone pulled from a source
longs to go back.

At any gathering I am there,
mingling in the laughing and grieving,

a friend to each, but few
will hear the secrets hidden

within the notes. No ears for that.
Body flowing out of spirit,

spirit up from body: no concealing
that mixing. But it's not given us

to see the soul. The reed flute
is fire, not wind. Be that empty.”

Hear the love fire tangled
in the reed notes, as bewilderment

melts into wine. The reed is a friend
to all who want the fabric torn

and drawn away. The reed is hurt
and salve combining. Intimacy

and longing for intimacy, one
song. A disastrous surrender

and a fine love, together. The one
who secretly hears this is senseless.

A tongue has one customer, the ear.
A sugarcane flute has such effect

because it was able to make sugar
in the reedbed. The sound it makes

is for everyone. Days full of wanting,
let them go by without worrying

that they do. Stay where you are
inside sure a pure, hollow note.

Every thirst gets satisfied except
that of these fish, the mystics,

who swim a vast ocean of grace
still somehow longing for it!

No one lives in that without
being nourished every day.

But if someone doesn't want to hear
the song of the reed flute,

it's best to cut conversation
short, say good-bye, and leave.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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I could ask you the same question. With all the information, thousands of years of history, testament (including my own recounted herein), how can you not believe in God or Heaven? You can be dismissive if you want to, but...

Thousands of years of history don't paint religion in a favorable light. Religion told us the Earth was flat until we found out it wasn't. Religion told us the Earth was the center of the Universe until we found out it wasn't. Religion told us the Earth was a few thousand years old until we found out it was several thousand thousand times that. Religion told us the sky was painted on and stars were pinpricks until we discovered they were actually massive fireballs trillions of miles away. Religion told us a deity lived in the sea and was responsible for tides until we found out about the moon's gravitational interaction with the Earth. Religion told us God caused the seasons until we found out about the tilt of the Earth's axis. Religion told us that sickness is caused by demonic possession until we found out about bacteria and viruses and genetics. Religion told us all the animals on Earth could fit in a single boat until we found out there's a lot more animals then we ever assumed. Religion told us that everything has been this way forever until we found out that 99% of every living species in history is extinct. Religion told us that God made humans out of dirt and spare bones until we found out about evolution and our primate ancestry.

I have no problem with someone believing in God or the metaphysical; I can't prove nor disprove the existence of a deity any more than you can, so what cause do I have to say that one (or more) couldn't exist? But where religion falters for me is when it tries to explain observable phenomena. We see something happen, we don't know why it happens that way, so we come up with an explanation to satisfy our curiosity. With science, that answer can change if we get new data that challenges our current way of thinking. With religion, if it is written, so it is, and if anything challenges that, HERESY. Religion has been on the wrong side of trying to explain facts every single time, and because of the inherent problem in saying "This is the word of God, it is infallible, it cannot be wrong," religion spends time actively dismissing new ways of thinking that don't mesh with what people thought thousands of years ago before we had microscopes or carbon dating or laboratory experimentation. And too often you find religious leaders clinging to dogma and desperately fighting off truth because it doesn't conform to a literal interpretation of scripture. It's ridiculous, it perpetuates ignorance, dismisses learning as blasphemy and keeps large segments of the world permanently uninformed about some fairly basic facts of reality.

I don't care one way or the other about God; if you believe in him, great, more power to you. But the people who have used organized religion as a tool to wield power over people, to keep them ignorant, to be dismissive of anything that challenges their way of thinking, have soured me to religion in general. You see a history that proves the existence of God. I see a history where every religion ever has been proven wrong about every natural phenomenon they try to explain with "God makes it happen." So I choose not to believe.